Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Accessibility

This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Accessibility and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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	Accessibility
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Accessibility, a group of editors promoting better access for disabled or otherwise disadvantaged users. For more information, such as what you can do to help, see the main project page.AccessibilityWikipedia:WikiProject AccessibilityTemplate:WikiProject AccessibilityAccessibility articles

WikiProject Accessibility was featured in a WikiProject Report in the Signpost on 6 November 2013.

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:WikiProject banner shell § How project banners should look. DFlhb (talk) 17:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Especially interested in your feedback regarding the colours, specifically this design. DFlhb (talk) 17:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that there is now an RfC on the matter, which everyone here is invited to. DFlhb (talk) 19:28, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Here's the link to the RfC mentioned above: Template talk:WikiProject banner shell#RFC. - 47thPennVols (talk) 22:01, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Someone posted at the help desk about problems they are having accessing Wikipedia using a screen reader: Wikipedia:Help_desk#Lack_of_Access. Maybe someone here has relevant expertise? -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:36, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I replied there a little earlier before noticing this message. Graham87 05:49, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please tell me if this is in the wrong place. I live with a motor neurone disease but I am not defined by living with a motor neurone disease, I am defined by being a person. I was shocked upon reading the page on Colour blindness that within 5 lines of the start of the article the ableist social convention that defines people as their problem and not as people appears in the form 'the colorblind automatically develop...' These are people first and colour blindness is a secondary attribute, so we should always be aiming at modern best practice which is to use 'people who live with colour blindness...' or 'people who are colourblind...' or 'those who are...'. The section entitled 'Effects' starts 'A colorblind subject...' and in the same sentence has 'the colourblind...'. They are not scientific specimens as 'subject' suggests, nor are they a problem as 'the colourblind' suggests. These are living, breathing people not objects, so I am certain that there must be a place for this discussion but cannot find it and thus put it here. Please forgive me, I am English and have used colour throughout this paragraph, but absolutely accept the the American spelling, color, is acceptable throughout Wikipedia. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 11:59, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fine place to put this concern. That said, I'm confused: do you object to "The French have developed a long history of bread and cheese" or "Peruvians are proud of their Incan heritage"? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 12:05, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Justin, I am glad I got the correct location. I am quite certain that if French and Peruvian people object to being referred to thus, they will raise the issue. My concern is with those of us who live with disabilities and are defined by society as being a problem. I do not regard being French or Peruvian as being either a disability or a problem and thus both are perfectly acceptable. Does that distinction make sense? Personally I get called 'the afflicted', 'the disabled, and 'the sick', but I am first and foremost a person. It is difficult enough living with a disability without people treating you as though you have ceased to exist and become a problem. People who live with colour blindness undoubtedly live with a disability, but it does not define who they are, being merely one of a number of attributes that they, as a person, possess. Rick DrRickZTTwo (talk) 12:18, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but 1.) by definition you won't hear from those who don't object and 2.) which qualities/properties/aspects of a person do you think can be adjectives in front of nouns and which ones not? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 12:20, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this Justin, I suspect that the resources which you have listed below are going to be part of the answer to that question, but ultimately the answer is whether or not there is any social stigma which can be attached to such a word. I am the scientist, the biologist, the educator, the teacher and the unexpectedly successful artist, I am not the sick, the disabled, the autistic, the afflicted or the dying. It is a line which is drawn by social convention and social convention is decided by consensus through discussion, like this one. I am getting tired, so may have to come back to this later - my apologies. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 12:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, friend: we all sleep. Happy to have the conversation when/as you can. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 13:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you find this language issue to be a widespread problem in Wikipedia? Or is Color blindness the only example you have seen? If it's the latter, then the correct venue for discussion is Talk:Color blindness. But actually the best course of action is to Wikipedia:Be bold and edit Color blindness yourself.

I'm happy to edit it for you, but I do have one question: What about the phrase "colour-blind people" or "colourblind people"? Mgnbar (talk) 12:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see, from the materials that you've posted below, that "colour-blind people" is not sufficient to fix the issue. Thanks. Mgnbar (talk) 12:49, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Mgnbar, both for your first question which is a good one and is going to require some research, and for getting to the resources that Justin posted before I did and answering your own question - much appreciated. I have used up what energy I have today, so will need to stop now, but will come back and, if you have not already edited it, edit the colour blindness page, once I have read the resources. I will also, probably fairly slowly, research other areas to see how widespread such language is. Thank you. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 13:04, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've made numerous edits to Color blindness, but there's still much to do, both on this issue and other issues in that article. Mgnbar (talk) 13:29, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Mgnbar, I visited the page and you have already vastly improved it. Elsewhere I came across a welcome message (from 2012 - in another lifetime before Nortriptyline damaged my memory - now mostly fixed by many years of hard work, and the rare motor neurone disease with which I live turned my life upside down). It mentioned using four tildes in signing off on discussion pages. On this page it appears to have inserted the information on username and time automatically, perhaps because I initiated the discussion. Although having said that, inserting them here has automatically added them to the preview. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 00:56, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant parts of the Manual of Style:

• MOS:MEDLANG
• Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Psychology#Audience_and_language

Relevant discussions on the topic:

• Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_222#Person-first_language
• More

―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 12:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Justin, I shall work my way through these resources, and will also introduce my wife to them, because in life outside Wikipedia, she is a Bishop's advisor on Accessibility in a Diocese of the Church of England and there is no doubt that she can learn from the relevant parts of the Manual of Style and the Person-first_language archived discussion. She may also be able to contribute to the continuing evolution of the Manual of Style, if she chooses to become part of the Wikipedia team. Thank you once again for asking intelligent questions and for being so welcoming and kind. DrRickZTTwo (talk) 01:14, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So (Warning re: epilepsy) autostereogram has a rapidly flashing image on it right at the top of page. Yeah. I don't have epilepsy, but I was still shocked by that thing just starting to animate outta nowhere when randomly navigating there.

I suspect an IP deleting content might provoke a revert from an overly enthusiastic vandalism patroller so hopefully someone doesn't mind doing the needful. Might also not hurt to put some kind of note or editnotice about animations and link to the accessibility guidelines since that's a page that will always attract well-meaning but unaware people looking to add animated content there for visualizing the effect. 47.155.41.201 (talk) 08:44, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Regarding Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Archive 14#Template:IPA vowels: Template:IPA vowels/accessible has been sent to TfD. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2023 August 7#Template:IPA vowels/accessible. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Fractions in category names. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am mediating a content dispute at DRN concerning the display of the scores of football. One of the issues is that one of the editors states that some of the templates that are being used to display club seasons does not comply with the accessibility guidelines. Here is how I am asking for assistance from this project. I would like to request an experienced editor to look at the dispute, and either say that some of the templates that we are using are not access-compliant, or that the templates that we are using do satisfy the accessibility guidelines. The editors with the accessibility issue can come to this project page and present their cases, or it would be useful if an experienced editor who is familiar with accessibility joined in the discussion at DRN. Thank you in advance for any help you can give. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've started a discussion about incorporating (parts of) MOS:ACCESS into GACR at the GAN talk page. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 16:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I started a discussion at Talk:The X Factor#Table under "The X Factor around the world" is not accessible to screen reader users. As the talk page seems pretty dormant and I have had no replies, I thought I'd mention it here to see what could be done about it if anything. KaraLG84 (talk) 21:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Template talk:Val#Screen reader problems with digits grouped by spaces in this template, in which I discover that the problem really isn't with that template at all but a JAWS/Chrome bug. There's nothing we can do about it here so this is just an FYI. Graham87 (talk) 11:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Accessibility/FAQ and common pitfalls

Graham87 (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Visually impaired visitors need a heading at level 1 placed where content begins. On every Wikipedia page, there are a series of links, at best only remotely related, to the topic before the actual content begins. It forces visually impaired people to waste time arrowing around for each article's true beginning. 108.54.91.238 (talk) 21:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As a fellow screen reader user, I can confirm that this indeed occurs with the new theme/skin, Vector 2022 because the heading is in a different position in the HTML (which better reflects how sighted people see the page). The easiest way to get around this is to press a key to move to the next block of non-link text (usually n) after going to the first-level heading. However, if you want the old Wikipedia look back, I can create an account for you and help you revert to an older Wikipedia skin. If this is what you would like, email me at grahamwp@gmail.com and I can take it from there. Graham87 (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just read this wikiproject page and perused the talk page. Are there guidelines for formatting to accommodate users who might have low vision issues (not actually blind, and not using any accommodative technology)?

I have poor eyesight (that's all I'm going to say on it) and, as examples, I like a lot of whitespace (glossary style rather than bulleted lists which present as walls of text), no unnecessary table formats (difficult to edit), and simpler images which show the subject (rather than 'busy' images which contain the subject but are hard to distinguish).

I haven't found any policies that suggest these ideas. Currently I'm dealing with swapping out images for better, simpler ones, but occasionally run into someone who wants to keep their favorite photos on display. A policy would be nice to support my changes.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 02:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All that immediately comes to mind is having accessibility via CSS to increase font size and contrast and to use SVG where appropriate, so it can be infinitely magnified with no loss of clarity. It would probably be nice if we had collections of user scripts that enhance visibility... ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious if there is a Wikipedia-specific tool/gadget people can use to check a page's accessibility. I know other communities have specific tools/gadgets to make their jobs easier. For example, Did You Know...? (DYK), has something that with a single click analyzes the page for various factors to help determine eligibility for DYK. There's also the Edward Betts 'tool' for finding links to articles (often used to help orphaned articles) or check I'm wondering if there's something similar so users can quickly check the accessibility of a page and learn how to fix it, kind of like the "Check accessibility" feature in Microsoft Word. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 20:44, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I had the same question. I looked at https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey9/?hss_channel=tw-2382446636 and picked VoiceOver, as it was readily available to me. YMMV. RudolfoMD (talk) 09:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I came up with a great way to convey that a drug has a critical FDA-mandated black-box warning: the word "Warning" in a black box. See User:RudolfoMD/sandbox2. Great for sighted folks, that is. Is there a way to specify alt text for the math tag to be used or otherwise make the warning more accessible? Didn't find anything at Help:Displaying a formula; could use some guidance. I want to add this to so it appears in the infobox of hundreds of articles. T.I.A. RudolfoMD (talk) 09:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Math has hidden MathML, which most screenreaders can handle and read out. And they will do that for this too. Please do not use math for decoration purposes. Just write a template with CSS styling. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:21, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. No clue how to do that (CSS styling), but I could try to figure it out or seek help. It was interesting to look at the source though, and gave me another idea.

The source that displays the math (in my browser) at its core is just an image with alt text. We could use the image and improve the alt text. Like <a href="/wiki/Boxed_warning">...<img src="https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/1735879add6c04cad562b5f3646d25a4ddf3d8bb" ... aria-hidden="true" ... alt="WARNING"></a>. I can do that. Seem reasonable?

(Also interesting that the image is an SVG containing alt text:

aria-labelledby="MathJax-SVG-1-Title">

<title id="MathJax-SVG-1-Title">{\displaystyle {\begin{array}{|}\hline W\!ARNING\\\hline \end{array}}}</title>

<defs aria-hidden="true">

I wonder if good internal alt text makes separate alt text unnecessary; I presume that's the idea. edit: Nah. Alt probably better for lynx. )

-R

The whole source (only possibly worth reading): (collapsed and then commented out as even collapsed it breaks formatting) RudolfoMD (talk) 19:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Figured out the CSS, I think. (Couldn't figure out the image method; wouldn't render right.) Edited Template:Drugboxwarns to use CSS.

Thus: WARNING^[1].

:-)

RudolfoMD (talk) 06:50, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]