Talk:Mass in C major, K. 220 "Sparrow"

Classical music: Compositions

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Note to self: Look up who is A.B. in Compleat Mozart when E. D. U. returns it to me. James470 (talk) 01:06, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The NMA link now points to K 140. If it were obvious how the template works I would try to fix it myself... Sparafucil (talk) 10:55, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you mean. I don't get the NMA template at all either. I thought you could just plug in the K. number somewhere and it would work, but that's not the cae at all. James470 (talk) 06:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The norm in Wikipedia articles is to provide a very brief summary of key items in an infobox in the top right of an article. This provides a consistent framework element for re-users like Google to automatically extract information - see Intelligence in Wikipedia. It also marks up many items with standard classes that can be recognised by others who scan our articles to collect information in microformats. For the casual reader, an infobox has the same relationship to a well-written lead as that lead has to the rest of the article: if a lead provides a 2-minute summary of the article, then an infobox provides a 20-second overview of the lead. Redundancy is necessarily built in to an infobox, just as it is in the lead.

There are, of course, many reasons why either an infobox or some of its contents may not be appropriate in a particular article, but each needs to be examined on an individual basis: sometimes the précis will oversimplify and mislead; sometimes the amount of information in the infobox overwhelms a short article; but the case needs to be made. The same reasons for an infobox exist in every article; while the reasons against will vary and often do not exist. It is true that the weight of argument will be against an infobox in many cases, but the onus is on the person wanting to remove an infobox to make that case. --RexxS (talk) 17:12, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Rex! You appear to be mistaken about a number of points. First, there is no set "norm" regarding infoboxes - they may appear or not appear depending on local consensus, which to this point does not exist here. Therefore, as with most other disputes, absent any consensus we default to the status quo, which in this particular case is sans box. Second, an infobox is not the only means to provide data for re-users - a simple Google search for a topic like Mozart or Haydn, neither of which include infoboxes on Wikipedia, will give you the same sidebar precis as a search for a topic with a box. If there is a need to develop a hidden metadata emitter for this class of articles, then we can of course discuss that. The infobox solution fails to find a balance between the urge to increase amount of metadata emitted (increasing parameters) and the need to avoid trivia and clutter (reducing parameters), and also presents a barrier to new contributors (per the literature, your anecdotal experience aside). You are correct, however, in your presentation of other reasons why this infobox is not appropriate: it's overwhelming for a short article and it misrepresents the content of the article on several key points (most obviously dates and instrumentation, but also name and other parameters). Nikkimaria (talk) 17:36, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikki. I'm afraid that you are the one who is mistaken. Although infoboxes may appear or not appear depending on local consensus, they normally do appear as an article develops - that is the meaning of "norm". The default for most developed articles is to have an infobox and readers expect them. If an infobox is added to an article, you mustn't automatically revert it just because there was no box previously - that is contrary to the way we work on Wikipedia; otherwise every edit could be reverted on that reasoning and articles would stagnate to maintain a worthless "status quo". Adding an infobox always brings advantages: the consistent format for re-users; the microformats; the overview. Absent any consensus the default is avec box. You are also mistaken about the value to Google and the way in which an infobox benefits them as re-users - you clearly have not looked at this Google talk otherwise you'd realise how far short of the reality the assumptions you make are. The literature is contradictory about barriers to editing - there are nothing like reliable sources to base anything on. And frankly, when Sue Gardner has done as much teaching as I have, I'll be more inclined to give credence to her pronouncements. I actually agree that the infobox is large compared to the article in this case. Make some suggestions for cutting down on the infobox size or increasing the size of the article and let's see if there's a consensus to be reached. --RexxS (talk) 18:34, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rexx, while I'm in favour of infoboxes personally, there's no policy that I'm aware of that defaults in favour of them. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:48, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RexxS made no claim about such a policy. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:10, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's hardly "automatic", Rex, and as Hchc points out there is no such default. Here is one example of a reliable source from the literature describing infoboxes as a barrier to new editors; I haven't seen any saying the opposite, although if you have some by all means present them. As to your final sentence, here's a suggestion: leave it out, and find a better way of emitting the microformats. The infobox as presented here is misleading and counterproductive, and is certainly not the best way to accomplish the goals of re-users. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:53, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We've had RfCs which have shown community consensus to use infoboxes to emit microformats. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:09, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not aware of any Wikipedia policy that says we default to the status quo when one editor objects to something supported by everyone else commenting; that would give that editor an effective veto. And of course RexxS is right about norms. The infobox, being useful and helpful to our readers and data re-users (who number far more than Google), should stay. I repeat my invitation to Nikkimaria regarding her serious allegations about infoboxes being barriers to editors (the fact that we should put readers before editors notwithstanding): start an RfC for the removal of all infoboxes from Wikipedia. I would again remind editors that the RfC called for by members of the classical music projects found that "Infoboxes are not to be... removed systematically from articles. Such actions would be considered disruptive". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:09, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would remind Andy that the full quote he presents reads "Infoboxes are not to be added or removed systematically from articles" (my emphasis). Nikkimaria (talk) 20:24, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed; but then on-one is systematically adding them to articles about classical music. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:25, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You appear either to be behind the times, or to be applying a different definition of "systematic" to adding vs removing. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:22, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nikki, I would prefer not to have to say this, but I have been approached by two editors privately complaining that you have been following their edits and reverting each time they add an infobox. That has the appearance of "automatic" and is not conducive to a collaborative editing environment. Neither is insisting on your version of an article by edit-warring to force it against multiple other editors. You have already crossed the bright line with 4 removals of the infobox today; I would much rather you were here to discuss the issues than blocked, so I would strongly urge you to revert yourself immediately before someone complains at WP:AN3. The survey you point to is just a single study and a long way from being significant. If infoboxes were such a barrier then I'd be with you in calling for an RfC to get rid of them; but nobody actually believes that.

Hchc, policy on Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive, and it is meant to document what we do, not circumscribe what we may do. The reality is that infoboxes are ubiquitous on Wikipedia and - even if it is not yet written down - the vast majority of articles acquire one as they develop - for better or worse. That is surely the very definition of a "default". --RexxS (talk) 21:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rex, if you would prefer not to have to say it, you could a) compare the contribs history of the two editors in question (it's no secret who those might be) to the edits I've actually made, and note that I haven't reverted on every occasion they've added infoboxes, but only under certain circumstances; and b) remember that coming to a discussion because of an off-wiki complaint not mentioned until now does have the appearance of canvassing. It's already been reverted and it's already at AN3; I've no intention of reverting again either way, but I do actually believe that in this case the box is a problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:37, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Hi guys, a wider discussion on this topic is taking place at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#Infoboxes in composition articles. Please contribute to that, if you'd like, or feel free to keep discussing this particular article as an isolated case if you think that's more appropriate. ~ Riana ⁂ 20:13, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So Diannaa has just edit-warred the box in with its deficiencies while simultaneously warning about edit-warring - that's entertaining. Anyways, here are some specific problems with this box:

1. The title does not match that used by the article
2. It's too long relative to the size of the article
3. Catalogue number doesn't match the article
4. Dates are misleading
5. Solo is unsourced and not in the article
6. Instruments is wrong, or misleading at best. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:22, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your second point is subjective. Your others, though mostly vague, can be fixed without removing the infobox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:58, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]