Talk:M. Karunanidhi

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Karunanidhi was born on June 3, 1924, in the village of Thirukuvalai, near Thiruvarur in Tanjore district, the granary of Tamil Nadu. His father Muthuvel was a scholar and a pandit, and his mother Anjugam, a devoted and loving housewife. "I was not the pet child of an affluent home. I was born of ordinary peasant stock, in a little village," said Karunanidhi.

As a student, he did not envince much inclination for routine studies. But he had a keen taste for drama, poetry, and Tamil literature. As a lad of 13, he plunged into a cultural and social movement, attracted by the great orator Alagiriswami, a pillar of the then Justice Party, who came to Thiruvarur to address a meeting in 1932. The seeds of public spirit and service were sown in him by Alagiriswami.

As a teenager, he gathered all the students of the locality, and formed them into a reformist association of youth. The Sangam as it was termed, provided a form for the boys to train themselves in the arts of speaking and writing. He soon extended the Sangam's sphere of activities to make it a statewide organization styled "All Students' Unity Kazhagam" A single-sheet bulletin, named Manavar Nesan was circulated among its members. The writings of Karunanidhi, usually marked by a lofty style and literary flourish, became very popular among the Tamil youth. His eloquent speeches, along with his writing ability, made him a natural leader of the students.

At a student's convention in Tanjore, Karunanidhi was enlisted as an important participant. But when he understood that the organising body had ulterior political objectives, he withdrew from the convention. As a counter move he started a new organisation called 'Tamil Manavar Manram', where he brought together all young people with a love for the Tamil tongue and culture. It was under the auspices of the manram that the now popular newspaper 'Murasoli' was born.

Besides these cultural activities, Karunanidhi involved himself and the student community in social work. Along with his comrades, he would visit the nearby hutments to do all that was possible within his limits. This was indeed a fitting apprenticeship for his later years as a Chief Minister

It was on the first anniversary celebrations of 'Murasoli' and 'Manavar Mandram' that Karunanidhi came into contact with student leaders like Anbazhagan, Nedunchezhiyan & Mathiazhagan, who were his ministerial colleagues later.

Karunanidhi who was a gifted stage artiste, put up a play titled Shanti, under the banner Davida Nataka Manram in Pondicherry. In this play he rendered the role of Sivaguru, which received much applause. This aroused the wrath of Congressmen, and there was resistance to the Dravidan movement. But the impact of this play made both Periyar & Annadurai visit Pondicherry and address a public meeting. Chaos followed the meeting, which was disturbed by miscreants. Karunanidhi was assaulted on the way back to his Manavar Manram. He was unconscious, when a kind neighbour nursed him back to consciousness in his house.

When the Justice party was transformed to Dravida Kazhagam, Karunanidhi designed the party flag. A black flag with a red circle was decided tentatively. It is said that Karunanidhi drew the red circle with his blood as a beginning for all the blood he shed for the honour of the party and the Tamils. The black was a reminder to the backwardness of the people who the party were keen on liberating, and the red circle represented the progressive aspirations of the Dravida Kazhagam.

At the age of 20, Karunanidhi went to work for Jupiter Pictures as a script writer. His first film 'Rajakumari', gained him much popularity. It was here that his skills as a script writer were honed. He wrote more than 70 screenplays including Rajakumari, Abhimanyu, Mandiri Kumari, Marutha Naattu Ilavarasi, Manamagan, Devaki, Parasakthi, Panam, Thirumbipaar, Naam, Manohara, Ammaiappan, Malai Kallan, Rangoon Radha, Raja Rani, [[Puthaiyal], Pudhumai Pithan, Ellorum Innattu Mannar, Kuravanchi, Thayillapillai, Kanchi Thalaivan, Poompuhar, Poomalai, Mani Makudam, Marakka Mudiyuma? Avan Pithana? Pookkari, Needhikku Thandanai, Paalaivana Rojakkal, Pasa Paravaikal, Padadha Theneekkal, Niyaya Tharasu.

Karunanidhi was instrumental in the Kallakudi struggle to rename Dalmiapuram railway Station. Karunanidhi was entrusted with the task of organizing the struggle. The cadres were divided into three batches, and Karunanidhi lead the batch which lay down on the railway station, blocking the train. They were promptly arrested, the second group also met the same fate. When the third group lead by Kannadasan took its turn chaos broke, the police resorted to firing leading to the death of two. Karunanidhi was lodged in Thiruchirapalli Central Jail.

Even in jail he set up a shadow government, and allocated responsibilities to everyone of his cadres. During his periods in jail (he was incarcerated more than seven times between 1953 and 1965), Karunanidhi read and wrote extensively in prison.

Karunanidhi contested the 1957 elections from Kulithalai constituency. This made the beginning for both Karunanidhi and the Dravida Munetra Kalagam. In 1967 they swept to power. Navalar Nedunchazhiyan was elected General Sectretary, and Karunanidhi became its Treasurer.

In 1957, the DMK convened, an anti-Hindi conference, to thwart the plans of the then Central Government to impose Hindi in Tamil Nadu. An anti-Hindi day was observed on October 13, 1957. They conducted a peaceful but massive agitation.

His party was indicted by the Sarkaria commission for corruption in alotting tenders for the Veeranam project ^[1]. However the case was not pursued further. The Interim report of Justice Jain commission which oversaw the investigation into Rajiv Gandhi's assassination indicted Karunanidhi for abetting the LTTE ^[2]. The report recommended that Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi and the DMK party be held responsible for abetting Rajiv Gandhi's murderers. They were later cleared of the charges.

Can anyone forget this?

Volume VII of that Report had concluded that "the conclusion is irresistible that there was tacit support to the LTTE by Shri M. Karunanidhi and his Government, and law enforcing agencies" (Volume VII, page 944, paragraph 73.32)

There is way too much of propaganda being put here by anti-DMK people.This is supposed to be a biography of Karunanidhi...not some online political forum for political attacks.

The person who edits this article as HornStop or something like that should be banned.He removes sourced articles and includes only those articles that talk against Karunanidhi.He even removed a line which merely said that Karunanidhi has a great command of Tamil.

Wikipedia Editors,PLEASE TAKE NOTE and ban this person.Thanks.

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The person, who wrote the above is clearly a follower of Dr.Karunanidhi. Outside Tamil Nadu, such people are requested to behave in a civilized manner. Rather than asking for ban, why not rebut the points? Would it not settle the matter more amicably? ---20:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)~~

Is the biography link of Karunanidhi or of Dr. Kalaignar? --Hemanshu 18:16, 25 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand your question correctly, my answer is both. Karunanidhi's full name is Muthuvel Karunanidhi, whereas Kalaignar is an epithet. The word Kalaignar means artist. Sundar 04:35, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

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=> [removed as per WP:BLP] See diff

Note, however, that WP policy insists that you cite all your sources; and further, if yours is only one of many viewpoints, the article should not be written in such a way that it is given undue privilege. Please keep that in mind, and please add citations! Hornplease 00:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

=> HornPlease, the WP policy seems fair. WP, to be an acceptable as an common source of information/knowledge, must present facts as they are, not as one wishes them to be. At the same time, we need to prevent fraud and deceit to be presented as valid counter-points.

19:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

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from 10-02-1969 to 04-01-1971 
from 15-03-1971 to 31-01-1976

Sundar, I could see these time periods overlaps. Could you comment on it? --Rrjanbiah 08:24, 26 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Rajesh, the time period does not overlap, but there is a small gap. One term ends on 14th January, 1971 and the next one starts on 15th March, 1971. I think, the gap may be due to President's rule. Sundar 08:47, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

Oops.. sorry.. I totally misread it because of American-Indian date formats. Thanks --Rrjanbiah 09:25, 26 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing.. is it 14th January or 4th January? --Rrjanbiah 09:26, 26 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. User:harikishoreaj added that information. Let's ask him. I think there is some inconsistence with List of Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu. If possible, I'll set it right. Sundar 10:17, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

I've changed the date format. Hope it is clear now. And by the way Sundar, there is no inconsistency with List of Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu. -- Kishore 08:06, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Kishore. Sundar 11:19, Jun 1, 2004 (UTC)

 from February 10, 1969 to April 1, 1971 
 from March 15, 1971 to January 31, 1976

My mind says some overlap again. --Rrjanbiah 04:22, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Welcome back Rajesh. Nice to see you again. Sorry about the date. When I retyped it in wiki format, I made a mistake. I've set it right. --Kishore 04:38, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Kishore. Nice to see, you've fixed the problem. Regards --Rrjanbiah 04:49, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The text removed by the anon was unsourced and POV, lets not revert it back Zeimusu | Talk page 02:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The entire article should be removed. It just full of POV. I am wondering what the administrators are doing? --Ganeshvb 05:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What on earth? You call MK a staunch supporter of LTTE openly? Atrocious, as far as WP is concerned. Karthik.raman 07:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Need citation about his Telugu Ethnic origin ?RaveenS 16:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some vandals are repeatedly deleting portions related to Rajiv Gandhi assasination and sarkaria commission. Though the source for both are verifiable. It is better to make this page protected with no more edits.

• Karthik.raman 02:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC):There's just too much of POV in this article.. even after I reverted several parts... Administrators please help![reply]

=> Mr.Raman, I suspect you have removed the section inserted by me "An Alternative View". If so, let me know, what are the points of contention.

HornStopPlease 19:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

This article has a pro-Karunanidhi tone, we should adopt a more neutral tone. I am sure that Karunanidhi is not a saint. Please also comment on this misdeeds.--Wikindian 20:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Please note that the Indian Naming conventions are different. The son's name is written first and then only the father's name (or surname) is written. Hence the Correct name will be Karunanidhi Muthuvel and not what you have corrected. In fact this is a name Kalaignar never uses. Indian always write their name as M.Karunanidhi.  Doctor Bruno  02:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I don't write my name that way though I'm from India. Is there any policy or guideline in Wikipedia about Indian Naming conventions etc? Idleguy 04:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Initials in Tamil naming conventions mean the father's name and not the son's name. For example brothers Robert Smith and William Smith are written as R.Smith and W.Smith. But brothers Lavan and Kusan are written as R.Lavan and R.Kusan in Tamil Nadu. Tell me how this should be expanded so as to give the westerners a correct interpretation. WIll you write it as Raman Lavan or Lavan Raman. WHat will be the impression that will be generated in the global community when it is written as Raman Lavan. Who will be considered as the father and who will be considered as the son. If you are going to name them as per western conventions it is K.Raman and L.Raman which is never done in Tamil Nadu. Similarly the smith brothers will be called as S.Robert and S.Williams. I can't comment upon this system, but please expand R.Lavan as Lavan Raman and not Raman Lavan Doctor Bruno  01:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what we've done on other articles about Tamils. Thiru. Vi. Ka. is Tiruvarir Viruttacala Kalyanasundaram, not Kalyanasundaram Tiruvarir Viruttacala. Rajaji is Chakravarthi Rajagopalachari, not Rajagopalachari Chakravarthi. By the same logic, Karunanidhi should be Muthuvel Karunanidhi, not Karunanidhi Muthuvel. -- Arvind 10:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rajaji and Viswanathan Anand (and of late Dr.A.Ramadoss) are classic examples of how North Indian Media and Western Media have misintepreted the South Indian naming conventions

For communities using double initial (the first is the name of the Town/village and the second the name of the father) it is appropriate for the naming conventions used for Thiru.Vi.Ka. That is called as vilasam. Hope you all have heard about அய்யம்பேட்டை அறிவுடைநம்பி கலியம்பெரும்மாள் இந்திரன் and அய்யம்பேட்டை அறிவுடைநம்பி கலியம்பெரும்மாள் சந்திரன்

However the use of initials is different in South Indian context and western context.

The second example which you have given is an example of a error that has been done by the english media. They do the same thing for Vishwanathan Anand, Palaniappan Chidambaram. Another glaring example of wrong naming conventions is referring Anbumani as Dr.Ramadoss. Ramadoss is his father's name and not surname. (If it is a surname, Dr.Ramadoss can refer to either the father and son, but since it is his father's name, the english media are committing a blunder when they say htat Dr.Ramadoss is the Health Minister) Just because such errors have been committed by those who are not well versed in Tamil Naming Conventions, it does not mean that it should be continued.

See [1] This issue has been already highlighted  Doctor Bruno  01:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I some one cannot still understand the naming conventions, please ask yourself as to how you will expand J.Jayalalithaa ??  Doctor Bruno  12:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another example of how Western Media misinterpret Indian Naming conventions and use the father's name instead of the subject's name can be seen from the BBC Report which says Soundararajan is refusing to comment. (Common Guys... Soundarajan is her father) But atleast BCC mentioned S.Shanthi as Santhi Soundararajan, and not Soundarajan Santhi !!!!  Doctor Bruno  03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article mentions that M.K was a rationalist, they called themselves as rationalists but they aren't. The Indian kind of Rationalism or atleast the Tamil one is only quasi-rationalism is not the full fledged rationalism. It advocates only Religious rationalism or rather Athiestic Rationalism. These so-called rationalists are mostly athiest, socialist and communist. They don't have the same skepticism on Government,Democracy as they have in God. For these people God is Government. It would be better to call these kind of people quasi-rationalists. -JK

Karunanidhi has been in politics for over 50 years from the days of untouchablity to today.Look to quote recent press commnets to say he is casteist is is a biased view.Please be more substantial we are talking in terms of man who has been in politics for 50 years .Please do not judge him by a few recent commenst.ADYARBOY

He uses slang words like Parpan,Aryan etc for the last 50 years. I can search old references and quote it. Till such time, if required you can change words that in recent days he has released statements promoting casteism.Few earlier editors have also pointed out that this article does not point out his misdeeds.Even in controversies section article ends with absolving him of all charges. Even wikipedia articles on gods or prophets like Jesus christ or Prophet Mohammed or Hindu Gods provides alternative views about them.Moreover all my points are sourced from his political statements.--Indianstar 00:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted back title of the section as "Promoting Casteism" from "Anti Brahmin Policy" due to following reasons.

1)His words like Aryan,Non-Shudras etc covers broad range of communities not only brahmins. --Indianstar 16:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ADYARBOY,Indianstar .He also stood against casteism atleast his policies were.Hence I felt anti-brahmin was better.Anyway no problem NPOV is there.Anyway Nothing personal Indianstar.Your contributions are very good Indianstar. Harlowraman

Dear Harlowraman, Regarding your points on Karunanidhi is against casteism. You have quoted incentives to intercaste marriages and samathuvapuram as sources. I think it is not good sources for himself against casteism. Do you think only particular castes live in Anna Nagar or Poes garden or Gopalapuram areas? If you allocate houses based on caste proportion it is the proof of encouraging casteism. Incentive to intercaste marriages are available in all states and incentive is higest in gujarat. citation given by dr.bruno in reservation in india article says 48 people have benefitted in Tamilnadu out of 60 million population. These incentives were also given by Jayalalitha,Panneer selvam.MGR or any chief minister in India? Whether all chief ministers in this country are against casteism?

In my opinion,if somebody prohibits marriage advertisements based on caste or if somebody brings law to abolish caste based associations or if somebody says caste should not be recorded in school certificates then it is called against casteism. Encouraging intercaste marriages can be called against casteism but tamilnadu does not stand significantly apart from other states in this parameters. I suggest you to reconsider that section or add better citations. --Indianstar 13:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

IndianStar Thanks for message.Sorry I did not respond at once.Look if at the Dravidian movement from the Justice party days U will see its leadership has been anti-Brahmin not against any other caste .Annadurai came from a forward community the Mudiliar which does not enjoy reservation . Karunanadhi he is anti-brahmin but not promoting casteiem will give you the links in some time.Harlowraman (talk • contribs)

Ok. I have incorporated your views under promoting casteism. (Under controversy section, there cannot be section to appreciate his efforts.So alternative views has been listed in the same section). I have only removed samathuvapuram scheme as it is not the good example of against casteism. It can be mentioned in other sections.(Foreigner who reads this article will get the impression that all castes are living together only in samathuvapuram,whereas all castes are living together in all cities of Tamilnadu.(DMK party/Tamilnadu cabinet are the only places where people from certain communities cannot enter. That is the only place in Tamilnadu which cannot be called samathuvapuram). If you still feel it has to be mentioned in same section then no problem. Since alternative views for himself being against casteism has been incorporated, i feel NPOV can be removed.--Indianstar 13:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please avoid arguments that exhibit your mental makeup (I am not naming that!!) like citation given by dr.bruno in reservation in india article says 48 people have benefitted in Tamilnadu out of 60 million population The Citation is a proof that there is a programme running in tamil nadu. It never said that ONLY 48 people. Please see and (if your mind is not blind) you can see another 1224 beneficiaries And this data is for the benefits extended during 2004-2005 only. If you ask why there is such a low figure, you have to ask the person who was responsible in 2005 and not the person who initiated the scheme. Suppose there is an article in Indian Express that says that Rs 20,000 was stolen from a house, does it mean that of the entire tamil nadu only one theft has taken place all these years. How funny !!!! How can people be so ...... (Again I am Assuming Good Faith and not naming anything)  Doctor Bruno  03:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not exhibit anger towards me. I am curious to know what you missed to name me and what you wanted to put in ........

I discussed about content. As a senior wikipedian you could have given reply for contents by assuming good faith instead of alleging that my mind is blind.

1) I quoted total beneficiaries given in your citation for the year, not single incidence of benefit distribution. So your analogy of single stolen house is not correct. Whether it is 48 or 48+1224, you are agreeing that figure is low compared to population size. 2) If citation is for 2004-2005, how it can be quoted as citation for current chief minister promoting intercaste marriage. No hard feelings please. --Indianstar 06:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Answers

1. I have assumed good faith.
2. You should know that there are 6 crore people in Tamil Nadu. How many of them marry (not everyone). How many of them marry in ONE YEAR. Of the persons marrying in one year, how many are from Intercaste. Of the persons marrying in Intercaste, how many would have applied for this benefit. For example, Aiswarya and Dhanush got married in Nov 2004. Was their name in the list ???. When you go on like that, it is pretty obvious that using that quotation and telling that it is a low figure means.......... (Again I am Assuming Good Faith and not naming anything) You are free to give both positive and negative points about the subject. But it should be reasonable .
3. I never alleged anything. I only said one sentence under conditional statement of missing intentionally the bigger number. If you missed it by accident, it should not worry you!!!.

Questions

1. What were you trying to imply by telling that the beneficiaries were 48 when there were thousand beneficiaries. Can you answer this simple question.

Grammer,Page and text not properly aligned. (125.22.67.230 09:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Regarding modifications

Criticism against him has been moved and projected as positive point. If somebody says his government is for non upper castes it does not mean he is trying to uplift lower castes.It has to be considered as racial remarks. For example if Srilankan prime minister says his government is for Sinhalese by Sinhalese, will you tell that he is trying to uplift Sinhalese community or will you tell that he is trying to suppress Tamil community? If some indian politician says that his government is for hindus by hindus it means he is trying to suppress minority community not trying to uplift hindus. --Indianstar 13:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV

Neutrality of this article is suspected for following reasons. 1) Columnists/Political opponents who criticised his actions are alleged as anti tamil anti backward 2) Many adjectives like his arrest shocked conscience of the nation are used.3) Many original research contents are used without citations like his administrative skills without academic backup 4) Article ends with acknowledgement for his son as successor

Many well cited criticisms have been removed for trivial reasons.For example, contents are removed for spelling mistake in citation whereas contents are verifiable and many more additional citations available in internet to support same criticism. Few lines snippets about his family members under relevant nepotism charges were removed with the reason that it has to be quoted in respective member articles. Whereas this articles has many lines which cites suffering by same members. Nepotism charges has been modified as positive point with statements like " his family and politics are inseparable to him.".Building of his party office is mentioned in his achievements along with his government achievements.If his racial remarks are quoted then it is being converted as positive statement like "he is trying to uplift lower castes".Media citations regarding details of his family members are removed by saying that it does not appear in official government website though content is easily verifiable. Wikipedia policy does not say only offical government website has to be quoted--Indianstar 13:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC) Answers[reply]

1. The columnists routinely write against Tamil. They criticise reservations, they promote Hindi and they call Chennai as Rude cities. If you want, i can give citations
2. If you were in India on June 30, 2001, (with open mind) you would have known what happened.
3. His administrative skill has been written in many articles
4. He has no academic background and that is well known
5. If some one could not even write a name properly, how can the authenticity of the contents be established. The articles that were removed had a lot of factual inaccuracies
6. Family members are mentioned. It is clearly given that they are in key posts. Only unwanted details like who is the richest persons have been removed
7. He is trying to uplift backward castes. That is achievement. What is wrong with that.
8. Building of party office is indeed an achivement. There is nothing specific about government achievement. If you feel so, you can very well give two headings and bring them seperately. Telling this under POV makes us suspect that your genuine intention is not improving the article, but defaming the subject  Doctor Bruno  15:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]