Talk:Cargo cult

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A person with no familiarity with cargo cults would not be too illuminated by the lead here. The section theoretically complicating the term is poorly-written and grammatically unclear—and also probably not really duly weighted for inclusion in the lead at all, let alone taking up >50% of it. The intro to the Britannica article on the topic is a good example of a helpful lead. Isthistwisted (talk) 02:49, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the lede could be better worded. It does however reflect what the academic sources we cite in the article have to say on the subject, unlike the unsourced nonsense you tried to replace it with. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Girl don’t get snippy with me Isthistwisted (talk) 07:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

“It should be written in a clear, accessible style” Isthistwisted (talk) 16:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, feel free to propose a new lede that accurately reflects the article content, in such a style. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You like it, hoss? Isthistwisted (talk) 02:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:07, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is still exceptionally academic and inaccessible. It needs to be simplified and clearly explain the origin of the term. Then later, by all means go deep into the anthropology and get technical. Carllottery (talk) 17:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it’s lead not lede 2603:8001:7800:23C3:912D:DB61:A20:25E2 (talk) 17:31, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's hilarious the extent this article has been rewritten to ensure that no one can actually tell what a cargo cult was and how people use the term.

GPT-4o does a 50x better job:

A cargo cult is a social movement that arises when a less technologically advanced society encounters a more technologically advanced one and attempts to imitate the behaviors and practices of the latter, often in the belief that doing so will bring them similar material wealth ("cargo").

History of the Term:

The term originated during and after World War II in the South Pacific.

Indigenous Melanesian people observed the wealth and supplies (cargo) brought by Western military forces.

After the war, they tried to recreate the conditions they believed would bring back the cargo, building mock airstrips, planes, and military-style structures.

The term "cargo cult" was later used more broadly to describe any group or practice that imitates the outward form of something without understanding its underlying principles. 207.96.123.224 (talk) 13:04, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if you want bullshit-bot regurgitation of third-hand just-so-stories 'cargo-cult' narratives paraphrased from ill-informed mass media, ChatGPT will do a splendid job. Wikipedia however has a policy against using factually incorrect computer-generated garbage. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The term "cargo cult" hasn't been erased, but if it has, that's good, because as the article makes clear, the science says it should be erased. 2600:8801:BE12:6E00:306F:B513:EEE6:AB93 (talk) 13:44, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing wrong with criticizing how the term is commonly used, but this common definition needs to be provided before it can be criticized. The current article fails to do that. 73.186.114.128 (talk) 15:09, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, the current article reads like a GTP prompt, just a different one. It is sorely lacking in context. It seems you are emphasizing the inappropriateness of the "traditional" explanation/description of cargo cults. The literature offered in support of the article is consistent with this position, so it seems to be the best current understanding. However, the term itself is relevant because it reflect the chauvinistic misunderstanding, and therefore it is important that the underlying reality is, in fact, distinct from that term. The term doesn't suddenly become a discrete and reified entity just because researchers have learned earlier understandings were wrong. The first line of the article "Caucasian race" is "The Caucasian race (also Caucasoid, Europid, or Europoid) is an obsolete racial classification of humans based on a now-disproven theory of biological race." The article doesn't discuss only population demography based on current understanding; it acknowledges the problematic origin of the term. I'm not suggesting something similar for this article, but it seems the inclusion of some discussion of the analogous problematic history merits acknowledgment. Kenton M (talk) 14:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be all for rewriting the article to cover this newer approach, but we need sources which cover those things, and that's what has been lacking so far. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I really wish this article was just a redirect to the excellent Open encyclopedia of anthropology article on the topic, which is really balanced about describing what "cargo cults" actually are. Ideally the article should be reworked to be closer to that article, though not to the point of basically just rephrasing it entirely. I think Peter Worsley's 1957 definition of cargo cults:

strange religious movements in the South Pacific [that appeared] during the last few decades. In these movements, a prophet announces the imminence of the end of the world in a cataclysm which will destroy everything. Then the ancestors will return, or God, or some other liberating power, will appear, bringing all the goods the people desire, and ushering in a reign of eternal bliss

which is widely used in discussions regarding this topic, probably should be included somewhere. There are genuine commonalities with regard to some of the "cargo cult" movements, and perhaps the current article goes to far in the "cargo cult is a meaningless term" direction. (Full disclosure, I wrote the lead as it currently stands). Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problem that I and a lot of other people have with the article is that if you're having a conversation with someone and they mention the term "cargo cult", and you go to Wikipedia to try to learn what they mean by that, you'll be completely lost. I totally understand that the actual social/religious movements are more complicated than the layperson's understanding, but I think there's room for expansion here.

Adding a sentence like "the term is based on the now-debunked theory that the departure of major powers from the Pacific theater after World War II led the native Melanesians to ritually mimic the actions of soldiers in an attempt to lure back the planes and ships carrying 'cargo' to the islands." could give the common definition while also noting that it's not accurate to our current understanding. Jokertyf (talk) 18:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 'theory' didn't need debunking. It wasn't even a theory. It was nothing but pop-cult facts-wrong story-telling. In this regard, our 'current understanding' differs in nuance only from that of the anthroplogists who first document these events (starting many decades earlier, it should be noted). At no time did academic sources support the patronising, and frankly sometimes racist, metaphor. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay fine, "mistaken idea" instead of "now-debunked theory". The point I'm trying to make is, this article needs something in the intro saying how the term is used in common parlance. It may be an incorrect understanding, but when the common meaning differs from the academic one, that is something that absolutely belongs in the article. Jokertyf (talk) 18:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For that, we need a source. One that doesn't merely repeat the 'mistaken idea' as truthful. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:48, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

look, you wrote that it's understood to mean something it is not. Not only is that a lie, it's not supported by sources Demigord (talk) 09:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the point of the article is to avoid describing the "mistaken" pop-culture version of the term as fact, it does a bad job of this considering that the Postwar developments section refers explicitly to islanders "mimicking the day-to-day activities" of soldiers and building "life-size replicas of airplanes out of straw," etc, citing sources from the 50s-60s. PenguiN42 (talk) 20:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AndyTheGrump

Dude if you want to clear up a misconception, EXPLAIN the misconception.

Explain the popular reference. Why its wrong etc. Thats fine. Be CLEAR. SIMPLE. CONCISE.

This is not academic writing. It's painfully obvious that people are trying to imitate academic writing. Journals turn away papers that obfuscate like this. Carllottery (talk) 15:05, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll echo @Kenton M. It reads just like a GPT with a "but make it sound like a grad student wrote it".

It really does read like an academic *in training* wrote it. Even if you're writing for a journal, you still want to make it clear, simple, and concise.

Get to the origin of the term immediately. Then jump off from there, debate the relevance etc later. Carllottery (talk) 17:18, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the Wikipedia gods abhor anyone interested in editing the article “cargo cult” and have devised a severe punishment: editing the article “cargo cult” 2605:A601:A862:A200:3026:C662:9564:8EEC (talk) 20:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m sure we can all dial it back. Why doesn’t someone try rewriting the lead? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 20:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The term "cargo cult" is vague and confusing. That's the whole locus of this dispute. There's no way write about cargo cults that doesn't get at the fact that the term is poorly defined. The confusion draws from the fundamental issues of the term, not the way the lead section of this article is written. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:16, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No the lead is garbage. World-class awful attempt at imitation academic writing.

This is one sentence:

Although anthropologists have reported several groups desiring Western material goods, which were conceived by the villagers as being produced by ancestral spirits, the term "Cargo cult" has been used by anthropologists to "label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations" in Melanesia, regardless of whether they desired material goods or not. Carllottery (talk) 15:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because you will be reverted Demigord (talk) 09:36, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed that the 1993 academic book "Cargo Cult: Strange Stories of Desire from Melanesia and Beyond" is completely open-access on JSTOR. [2]. Looks like a good source to use to write the article. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:07, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly a good source, and not that hard-going for non-anthropologists, which is a definite plus. We'd need to be a bit wary of representing it as a current work, or of over-emphasising Lindstrom's particular perspective (which may have been refined somewhat since), or of presenting the (very atypical) John Frum movement that Linstrom discusses in some depth as some sort of norm, but it covers the whole 'cargo-cult-as-metaphor' topic really well. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:39, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To growing_daniel followers etc who are pissed off about whatever: maybe I can go epicly viral with a little esoteric illegible tweetfluencing of my own here. Cargo cults are an actual thing that happened in real life, so the Wikipedia article called "cargo cult" is primarily about them.

But the fact of the matter, as I understand it, is that (like most things which exist in real life) cargo cults are a thing that exist in real life, which necessarily have more depth than the kind of allegory that is referenced when the term is used in some guy's essay about Tailwind from the front page of HN lol. Yes? You're with me still?

It is of course true that software engineers from California (such as myself) often use the term to refer to a particular type of being stupid, and maybe we should have a hatnote to e.g. wikt:cargo cult for those who are at this article due to Paul Graham essays. It is also true that the lead of the article as it exists right now is kind of confusingly written, and maybe it should be improved. It is altogether good and proper to do this.

I propose we make a bargain: a bit less piss-and-moan sanctimonious preening from both the tweet rotators and the wikicels? Maybe we even try to write something good on the collaborative encyclopedia project? Yes? jp×g🗯️ 07:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JPxG: The problem is that the term "cargo cult" is by definition very vague. As The Open Encyclopedia of Anthropology entry on Cargo Cults notes, the term is basically used for any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations. Trying to write something coherent about collectively about what is ultimately, a bunch of quite different local spiritual/political movements is no easy task. I've tried to rewrite the article lead to something more understandable. Hemiauchenia (talk) 09:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Academic encyclopedia's should not be used ahead of more traditional tertiary sources. They are certainly appropriate for a section dealing with the anthropological background of the topic, but using academic sources above general sources is a red flag. TheMissingMuse (talk) 16:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where the heck did you get the idea that "using academic sources above general sources is a red flag"? That is completely and utterly at odds with what WP:RS says. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:33, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Come on, this isn't that hard. From WP:DUE: Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. TheMissingMuse (talk) 17:39, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that academics who have actually studied a topic in depth are less reliable than tertiary sources written by non-experts? And which 'viewpoints' are you referring to anyway? You seem to be suggesting there is some sort of serious debate over the 'cults'. Where is this debate occurring? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:50, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just quoting and applying policy. When determining how much weight to afford a particular framing of a topic, the best place to look is more general sources. What I'm seeing here is an assertion that some narrow academic sources be used instead of having the article represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources. TheMissingMuse (talk) 18:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What viewpoints? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:40, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, you are misinterpreting policy. When discussing an academic topic, academic sources are the best way to find cites.

If you're arguing to expand this article's focus beyond the academic, then that's whole different conversation. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

whoop whoop why does it try to obfuscate what a cargo cult is. Don't they worship Prince Phillip in one of those or something? Some dunce (talk) 08:05, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

it doesn't jp×g🗯️ 09:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ok. read it, then use that to tell me what they did Demigord (talk) 09:17, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

it's actually really funny, because it says nothing, but continually tries to cover up the true meaning. It's a disgrace to wikipedia and anti-knowledge, but funnyDemigord (talk) 08:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

can you say where it does this and what it should say instead? this is the talk page not the vague page jp×g🗯️ 09:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

can I say where it says nothing? lol. Obviously that includes it all

It should honestly define the concept instead of waving vaguely at spiritual practices

But they won't do that Demigord (talk) 09:03, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

wait, there is this: "The term Cargo cult typically refers to movements of Melanesian villagers revolving around a charismatic prophet figure who foretold a coming great change in society"

which is a flaming lie. Everyone here knows that's not what it typically refers to Demigord (talk) 09:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can I ask how 'everyone knows' this? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It’s true that that is not the typical concept referred to by the term "cargo cult". See Britannica and the Open Encyclopedia of Anthropology, which at least explain the typical and original meaning of the term. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 15:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, looking at the definition of "cargo cult" given in Worsley's classic 1957 monograph The trumpet shall sound: strange religious movements in the South Pacific [that appeared] during the last few decades. In these movements, a prophet announces the imminence of the end of the world in a cataclysm which will destroy everything. Then the ancestors will return, or God, or some other liberating power, will appear, bringing all the goods the people desire, and ushering in a reign of eternal bliss isn't far off from the definition currently in the intro is it? "a coming great change" is comparable to "imminence of the end of the world in a cataclysm which will destroy everything". Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:09, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The monograph would be a good source for the history of the term. It's more than 60 years later. Tertiary sources like Britannica and Open Encyclopedia are more appropriate for contextualizing the term in the modern day. TheMissingMuse (talk) 16:13, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Britannica online is just not a good source for academic topics like this (nor should we be relying on a general encyclopedia to write other general encyclopedias really). I've been trying to rewrite the intro based on the Open Encyclopedia of Anthropology for a while, but it's hard to write something concrete when the topic is vague. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are asserting this is an academic topic, exclusive of general interest. You'll need sources supporting that claim. The Britannica source refutes that claim, so you're going to need some strong sourcing to establish this topic as purely academic. TheMissingMuse (talk) 16:33, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you ever read WP:RS? You appear not to. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many times. Have you read WP:UNDUE? What we are seeing in this article is a focus on a specific academic perspective of the topic, instead of a broader composite that integrates the various academic perspectives on the topic in a clear and direct manner. TheMissingMuse (talk) 16:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, which other academic sources are you suggesting we cite, and what are you proposing we cite them for? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:57, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The practical recommendation would be to cut the lead down from two massive paragraphs to a clean and clear single paragraph of 3-5 sentences. For example, much of the first paragraph devolves into esoteric details more suited to a history of the term, before even mentioning the social context under which the term developed. Most of the first paragraph should be chopped, with elaboration occurring in the article body. It's filled with misplaced academic jargon, trivia and political buzzwords like: "religiopolitical", "kago", "colonial oppression", "moral salvation", "existential respect", "anti-colonial desire", "Western colonization".

• current: Cargo cult is an umbrella term used to denote various spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonisation of the region in the late 19th century. The term Cargo cult typically described millenarian religiopolitical social movements of Melanesian villagers revolving around a charismatic prophet figure who sought to induce "ancestral spirits or other powerful beings" to provide them "cargo" through either reviving ancestral traditions or adopting new rituals, such as ecstatic dancing. Early accounts by anthropologists like Lucy Mair characterized these groups as motivated primarily by envy of Western material goods, although later researchers have tied them to pre-existing aspects of Melanesian culture, or to the disruption of local communities brought on by colonial oppression, or both. Cargo—kago in the Pidgin Englishes of the region—could therefore signify "moral salvation", "existential respect" or an "anti-colonial desire for political autonomy." Cargo cult as a term is now seldom used by anthropologists, although it has persisted in popular commentary and critique.
• direct: Cargo cult is a term used to describe a belief system in which adherents develop ritualistic practices for the purpose of inducing supernatural forces to deliver 'cargo' to the believers.

TheMissingMuse (talk) 17:23, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This single sentence on its own is an inadequate summary of complex topic, if that's what you're planning to replace that entire paragraph with. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:22, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't even a summary. It is a regurgitation of the popcult version, and as such unsupported by the sources we cite in the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are literally dozens of academic papers written about cargo cult groups. Obviously journalists and other non-academic writers wrote accounts of cargo cult groups, but these have problems with sensationalism. We should be looking to the academic literature to provide a truthful account of this topic. There is obviously a popular interest aspect about the way that "cargo cult" has become an idiom in wider western culture that is discussed in the Open Encyclopedia entry and should be discussed in this article, but that shouldn't distort the coverage of cargo cults as they actually existed in Melanesia. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quite right. The current lede distorts coverage of cargo cults as they actually existed in Melanesia. It's academic word salad that reads like freshmen level copy-pasta. TheMissingMuse (talk) 16:50, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, WP:SOFIXIT. Present the lede you'd prefer to see here and we can discuss it. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:38, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...But only if you can provide the sources to back it up. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to comment on my proposed change above. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:05, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:53, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

honestly: do you believe there is a 2% chance that if you asked someone what it meant and they had heard of it, what they would say is anything like the mush here?

Because I would happily bet at 50:1 odds they would not.

but I see the quote I was specifically referring to is gone Demigord (talk) 04:33, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a platform for the regurgitation of misinformation. The popcult version of 'cargo cults' is wrong. It has always been wrong. Just how difficult is that to understand? AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have to agree with TheMissingMuse. 'academic jargon, trivia and political buzzwords like: "religiopolitical", "kago", "colonial oppression", "moral salvation", "existential respect", "anti-colonial desire", "Western colonization"' have ruined this article. Allegedly "Reliable Sources" of academics don't help if they are not describing the meaning of the term as understood by 99% of the population. --15:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Please provide links to the Wikipedia policy that states that articles should contain misinformation just because '99% of the population' (or whatever imaginary statistics you can pull from your nether regions) believe it? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:01, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let me quote another editor from above: "There is nothing wrong with criticizing how the term is commonly used, but this common definition needs to be provided before it can be criticized. The current article fails to do that." 73.186.114.128 --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok then, citing the necessary sources, suggest an update to the article. One that doesn't mislead readers into thinking that this 'definition' was ever correct. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Judging from the history of the article, either you or Hemiauchenia will delete it, your protests notwithstanding. Writing takes time, deleting a small fraction of it. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:19, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]