Talk:2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash

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Isn't discussing a succession too WP:CRYSTALBALL??? Borgenland (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

not necesserly because there if facts about it, it's enshrined in the iranian constution article 131

look on president of iran on "inability of the president" Anticonstitutionnelist (talk) 23:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no indication of Israeli intelligence involvement at this time. The source cited doesn't mention anything about it either. Edit: The part mentioning that seems to have been removed from this page. 82.2.41.189 (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Wayback archive URL is currently invalid. Leaving aside that WP:DAILYMIRROR is a tabloid and a no consensus source, in the source I don't see anything about Israeli intelligence being involved in the crash either. This was the edit that introduced the claim. Boud (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We currently have {{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=a-i}} on this talk page, but there is so far only speculation about Arab-Israeli involvement. We don't have any warning about the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict, even though the event happened near the Azerbaijan border, and we don't have any warning about post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, even though Iran is under US sanctions and US-Iran relations come up often in post-1992 US political discussions.

Any objections to removing this particular template (topic=a-i) from this talk page? Boud (talk) 19:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, we should really wait before at all relating the crash to Israel or anything to do with the conflict, as right now it is entirely speculation. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 19:11, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies I forgot to remove it when I was trying to find a related article. Borgenland (talk) 20:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe link Kobe Bryant helicopter crash to Iran? 2600:1017:B8C2:648A:551:3330:2A7D:334C (talk) 00:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

what? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 02:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No objection, I was thinking the same thing myself. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Boud (talk) 20:12, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that it should specifically be mentioned. There have been rumors globally about Israeli involvement. The rumors are natural (i.e., the incentives would align in a way that this outcome is advantageous to Israel) given that Iran has backed Israel's opposition (Palestine, et al.) in the 2023-2024 Israel-Palestine war. Furthermore, Iran has undertaken large-scale covert sabotage against Iran in recent memory, such as the complex virus that sabotaged Iran’s nuclear program. Thus, the global rumors are a natural consequence of this crash occurring. Together, this creates one piece of evidence that, to me, is enough to justify a very brief mention (of Israel’s apparent lack of involvement) in the article here.

Moreover, these rumors have been so prevalent that the Israeli government came out and specifically addressed them, saying that they were not involved in this crash in any way. Example news story/source: https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-iran-president-helicopter-crash-154340897.html. To me, this is a second piece of support for the inclusion of the topic within the overall article.

To be clear, I am not asserting that Israel is in any way responsible for this. I am stating that I think the rumors – and Israel’s public response to them – are important enough to be included. In fact, many may wonder specifically if Israel is involved, if Israel has denied involvement, etc. and may thus come to Wikipedia to find out. Hence, I would argue that that information should be included.

I would include something like:

"In the immediate aftermath of the crash, questions of foul play arose.[manycitations] Due to Iran’s support of Palestine[citations] during the ongoing intense conflict between Israel and Palestine,[citations] as well as to Israel’s covert involvement in sabotaging high-profile Iranian programs in the recent past (such as Israel’s sabotage of Iran’s nuclear program),[manycitations] some in the global community publicly suspected foul play by Israel.[manycitations] In response to this, the Israeli government officially denied any and all involvement with the incident.[manycitations] To date{tag:asof}, there has been zero evidence found by any party – Iranian or otherwise – to implicate any foul play at all – Israeli or otherwise – in the incident."

In my mind, this statement 1) addresses the issue that is certainly large enough to be addressed, as I outlined the arguments for above; 2) clearly addresses why some in the global community might have publicly speculated Israel’s involvement, and it does so using solely indisputable facts, not opinions; and 3) very clearly states that not a single person or other entity has found any evidence at all of any foul play, specifically including a complete lack of evidence of any Israeli involvement. Phatmatt12188 (talk) 22:16, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's really clear to me what you want - there is already a fairly long paragraph in the article (in the 2024_Varzaqan_helicopter_crash#Foreign section) about the rumors that Israel was involved, the lack of evidence, and the Israeli denial. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some sources say the involved helicopter was a Bell 212, not 412 which is usually used in official Iranian President travels. Aminabzz (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

which sources? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/5/19/iran-helicopter-accident-live-president-fm-on-missing-aircraft?update=2910784. Borgenland (talk) 20:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I was going to say that from the photos in the article it looks like a 212 (just 2 blades on the rotor), but was hesitant to change just on the basis of my visual impression.

Now that we have a source saying that, I think we should change it. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we should. Rynoip (talk) 21:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I already did :) Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nice. Rynoip (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

nevermind its still 212 for some reason ill try to change it Rynoip (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But it is actually a 212... Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 23:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is? i thought the topic was about it being a 412 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/5/19/iran-helicopter-accident-live-president-fm-on-missing-aircraft?update=2910784 Rynoip (talk) 23:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, no, sorry for the confusion, the article originally said it was a 412, but it is actually a 212. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 02:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the picture is probably not from the crashed one 172.59.212.22 (talk) 03:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iran is not listed under oparaters in the Wikipedia page of the Bell 412 but it is listed on the Bell 212 page so I think it's very clear that it was a 212 172.59.212.22 (talk) 04:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, thanks for the clarifictaion Rynoip (talk) 21:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Were there any signs of the helicopter having been sabotaged?195.244.210.117 (talk) 06:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am bringing up the issue of the photo of the helicopter in the infobox. I was surprised that Wikipedia had such a closeup, free-to-use photo, and I exposed here why this photo may not be depicting the President's crashed helicopter: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AIranian_presidential_helicopter_crashed_2024.jpg#Issues_with_this_photo --Inotodo (talk) 07:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

== What was the call sign of the aircraft and the designation of the flight? Air transports of heads of state and government has "IRAN02". kencf0618 (talk) 12:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the president's helicopter or a rescue helicopter? The caption on Wikipedia differs from the one on Commons. The image has no source URL to verify. Schierbecker (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found the photograph here. It is of the president's helicopter. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 21:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to who? Schierbecker (talk) 22:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source is MEHR, relying on Tabriz. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From MEHR: "Tabriz- The helicopter carrying the president on its way back from Khodafarin to Tabriz fell in poor conditions in the region; the interior minister confirmed the crash announced the dispatch of relief groups to the region." This doesn't verify the caption. Is this the helicopter carrying the president, or another helicopter in the same convoy? Schierbecker (talk) 22:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New York Times photo caption: "In a photo provided by Islamic Republic News Agency, the helicopter carrying Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi took off at the Iranian border with Azerbaijan". -- GreenC 22:59, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That photo comes from the Islamic Republic News Agency and from a different photographer. Schierbecker (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is the same helicopter. The photographs have different angles. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There were three helicopters involved in the convoy. How do you know? Schierbecker (talk) 06:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've just seen this discussion, having just made this edit. The image source does not verify that the helicopter in the photo is the one that crashed and not one of the other two – the image caption is simply "The official opening ceremony of the joint project of Qiz Qalasi Dam". The NY Times source is a different photo so we cannot WP:SYNTH that it's a photo of the same aircraft, but given the source of that image is the same batch (MEHR) as the other, the initial source does not provide verification. MIDI (talk) 20:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Khamenei's quote is mistranslated. He said to the people that "[They] don't need to be worried or anxious as administration of country will not be disrupted at all" Source Jondoeburner (talk) 21:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Source is english.khamenei.ir/). Thanks. That makes much more sense. Moscow Mule (talk) 00:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is an important topic that should be included in the article. Source Tahriqedicii (talk) 23:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's included Waleed (talk) 00:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As we can see, the year isn't needed here and I doubt any sources there use it. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the crashes constantly indicate the year as well as location Waleed (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How long can he be missing until power is given to the next in the line of succession? 2602:306:BC74:6240:948:979E:186E:2296 (talk) 00:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As with who's next, when he "takes power" is decided by the Supreme Leader, whenever he wants. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possible location at Tavil/Tawil per AJE live blog - "The official said the location is in an area called Tavil. Iran's Press TV also reported that rescue forces are heading towards the spot." The slopes are clearly steep - a gradient of something like 1 in 2, i.e. 27 degrees. Not yet usable, but there should be proper sources soon. Boud (talk) 01:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

should we move the page to something like "2024 Jolfa helicopter crash" since [1] reported a updated location? Haers6120 (talk) 02:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be ok with that, but it probably requires a move request, seeing as the previous move was contested. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 02:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

in the video shown here the coordinates are N 38 46 21 E 46 43 24 Schrauber5 (talk) 03:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to Cedarnews the site is N 38 47 10 E 46 42 56 which is 2km away Schrauber5 (talk) 04:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to this image from a Turkish drone finding a hotspot, the coords are 38° 46′ 04″ N, 46° 41′ 33″ E near the village of Tavil, East Azerbaijan. I have made it so the article displays the coordinates from Wikidata so there won't have to be edit conflicts. If anyone wants to adjust the coords, please do so on Wikidata. Abductive (reasoning) 09:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The videos from the Turkish drone do NOT match the videos of the actual crash site (terrain, actual crash location is NOT on a top of a ridge). Seems Bayraktar was searching in the wrong location - they likely mistook the camp fire of a freezing rescue team. Maybe they did not release the video with the correct hotspot - or maybe Bayraktar wasn't even involved in finding the crash site (despite Turkish claims). At least the current location from the Bayraktar hotspot (38° 46′ 04″ N, 46° 41′ 33″ E) is not correct. MrHRFloyd (talk) 11:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have adjusted the coords to 38°44′34″N 46°39′37″E, 2 km SW of Uzi. Make any change as you see fit on Wikidata here. Abductive (reasoning) 11:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/reactions-crash-iranian-presidents-helicopter-2024-05-19/

dropping this here since I can't edit Readingpro256 _{talk to me contribs} 02:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah we've already used this source Waleed (talk) 15:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CNN is reporting that "No survivors" were found at the crash site. They are citing both IRINN and Mehr News. https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/raisi-iran-president-helicopter-crash/h_84e1c9ad10338418fd5540d8f7723cc6

• Brother you just added a new section instead of adding a topic, moreover I think that this should be added.

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

(Under "Crash" section) change awkwardly phrased "Giz Galasi event" to "inauguration of the complex", which would also connect better with the preceding "Background" section. Td 078 (talk) 03:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

•  Done Aviationwikiflight (talk) 10:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a line but it has been deleted that Mokhber is now president for 6 month Baratiiman (talk) 03:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[2]https://www.shora-gc.ir/en/news/87/constitution-of-the-islamic-republic-of-iran-full-text

Article 131 stated he first deputy of the President, is obliged to arrange for a new President to be elected within a maximum period of fifty days not 6 month 78.39.140.179 (talk) 09:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.khabaronline.ir/amp/1908840/ Baratiiman (talk) 04:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Waleed (talk) 00:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at 2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Well-wishes and offers of support came from Prime Minister of India Narendra Modi, Prime Minister of Pakistan Shehbaz Sharif, President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, and the foreign ministries of Afghanistan, China, Kuwait, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar.

Adding China to the list of foreign ministeries at the end of the International section. ^[1] EZJC (talk) 04:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please add Australia as well.

https://www.aap.com.au/news/pm-waits-for-news-on-crash-search-for-iranian-president/ Amoresmore (talk) 07:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added Aussie reaction Waleed (talk) 16:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the picture is not a helicopter but a plane and it is a different accident - پیدا شدن لاشه هواپیمای سقوط کرده در مازندران (tinn.ir) 85.163.239.53 (talk) 07:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming you're referring to File:Ebrahim Raisi helicopter crash site 19 May 2024.jpg, it shows the tail and horizontal stabilisers of a Bell 212. MIDI (talk) 13:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's the correct photo, just taken from above the crash zone. The tail is the only part that survived the fire. Here is the whole crash from above showing the same tail piece:

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/first-visuals-from-iran-presidents-chopper-crash-site-no-survivors-5702595 Pat2dv (talk) 14:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.aap.com.au/news/pm-waits-for-news-on-crash-search-for-iranian-president/

Australia prime minister also commented on the search. Amoresmore (talk) 07:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Waleed (talk) 16:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.reuters.com/world/reactions-death-irans-president-helicopter-crash-2024-05-20/

Includes EU, Japan, Sri Lanka, Egypt, etc. 2Links (talk) 08:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current listing on wikipedia seems to suggest that only Muslim countries and India cared about the search and death, which is a very odd and skewed view of the real situation. I suggest it needs to be written in the order of deliverance, alphabetically or geographically. Amoresmore (talk) 08:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Although those were the first reported, section definitely needs expanding now that there are reactions from others. Prefer organizing geographically as in other articles. 2Links (talk) 08:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As many of you know, most editors despise list-formatted "Reactions" sections, especially the flag icons. These sections should be converted into prose—not a bulleted (flagged) list. Sourcing should not be primary, such as tweets, and should have encyclopedic value. A politician giving his/her condolences does not have much, if any, encyclopedic value, and each certainly does not need its own sentence or paragraph. Abductive (reasoning) 09:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we don't make a list, shouldn’t we write who from which state or just wich countries sent condolences? Zeeshan Y Tariq (talk) 09:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, little to add to what you've said. The flags add little more than prettiness (not a good enough rationale), and the quotes add nothing but a show of support, kind words, or sympathy (not a good enough rationale). I have no real objection to mentioning which countries/organisations/etc. that have made statements (provided it's prose AND isn't so many that it gets out of hand), but WP:QUOTEFARM and WP:LISTDD should guide us in this instance. MIDI (talk) 09:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the first paragraph needs to be removed as it is virtually all primary source too. Amoresmore (talk) 09:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Xxx2023 please respond here before making unilateral moves. Your actions are no longer opposed by a solo editor. Borgenland (talk) 09:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Flags are being used to inmprove visibilty, in which reader can easily find how each country reacted to the incident. A list is the best method to present several inputs so I do not see any issue in sorting the info in such manner. Xxx2023 (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But does every country's reaction follow WP:UNDUE guidelines though? Wikipedia is not a dumping ground for each country's reaction. Borgenland (talk) 09:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd give leeway for official mourning abroad. As for the flag soup, it is clear that some editors have failed to read WP:UNDUE, not to mention the tons of copyvio, commentary and WP:QUOTEFARMs that I have had to clean up. Borgenland (talk) 09:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are lots of articles which have a separate page regarding reaction to that certain event. Does this incident Chris Rock–Will Smith slapping incident deserve a so-called "encyclopedic" article! Let's see how most users would argue to figure out the final outcome. Xxx2023 (talk) 09:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current paragraph without the flags gives undue weight to Muslim countries and India.

Why is India included considering its geopolitical relations are very minor? It's not even part of the Iranian axis.

Where is China? Why has the EU not been mentioned despite being involved according to other text? Amoresmore (talk) 09:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My only concern was that you would remove all content related to the sections. To be honest the latest version looks decent! Xxx2023 (talk) 09:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problems with these 'reaction' sections is that in every case where world leader is killed, or dies, at some point all 195 countries, and innumerable 'international organisations' will have something to say about it; I think it's better to wait for an independent source to make a 'reaction to the accident' article, rather than relying on primary sources. JeffUK 10:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the section should be removed and replaced with an aftermath section. Reactions are only required if they have a meaningful impact on humanity. Amoresmore (talk) 11:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please add to "REACTIONS" section - Polish President Andrzej Duda (https://x.com/AndrzejDuda/status/1792468887923028454). Thanks Paawlus (talk) 13:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've just closed the "#government reaction paragraph should be turned into a bulletpoint list" discussion below as a duplicate of this topic to ensure we centralise discussion. The gist there is that the section should be turned into a bulleted list because it's (too) big – I would suggest that this is a sign the section is too large rather than needing change of format. Listing every country or head of state who has said something is not of benefit to the reader (and goes against my comment above of "I have no real objection [provided that it] isn't so many that it gets out of hand"). WP:REACTIONS#Problems sums up what's going on here. MIDI (talk) 19:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per [[3]], I can only count eight people (5 passengers and 3 crew). Who was victim no. 9??? Borgenland (talk) Borgenland (talk) 10:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article adds 'A bodyguard' not listed on the Al Jazeera link. [4] - Raisa, Amir-Abdollahian, Ale-Hashem, Malek Rahmati, Raisi’s head of security, a bodyguard, 3 Flight crew. Makes 9, but I've changed it up a bit, so the lead sentence makes it clearer everyone died, then we list who was onboard. JeffUK 10:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AP now reported it as 8. Borgenland (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

8 seems to be the number everyone is settling on, I think 'Head of Security and bodyguard" was originally misconstrued to be two different people. Long live the Oxford Comma! JeffUK 11:16, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if anyone's in the middle of doing this, but the article is (still) contradictory – lead lists eight people, body says "It was eventually reported that nine people were in the helicopter when it crashed", and the infobox (worst of all) says 6 pax + 3 crew = 8 occupants. I think the quote ("it was eventually reported...") is probably superfluous, unless we're discussing how number of occupants was misreported or something like that; I think it can probably come out altogether. If that goes, it's only the infobox that needs fixing. MIDI (talk) 12:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to change this, but Jalapeño reverted my edit. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 12:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the thing, when I monitored the proceedings in the morning of 20 May it was 9, since the evening news sources are calling it 8. In this case, it would be best for all to consult Iranian media and recheck the time stamps for all sources uses in this issue. Borgenland (talk) 12:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AP, quoting IRNA, writes: [5]

The crash killed all eight people aboard a Bell 212 helicopter that Iran purchased in the early 2000s, according to the state-run IRNA news agency. Among the dead were Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amirabdollahian, the governor of Iran’s East Azerbaijan province, a senior cleric from Tabriz, a Revolutionary Guard official and three crew members, IRNA said.

I'll try to change to eight again. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 13:02, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The info box is inconsistent in its numbers. It lists six passengers and three crew (9 total) and 8 fatalities. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected it to 5 passengers based on confirmed identities. Would have wanted to identify all if it weren't for WP:MEMORIAL. Borgenland (talk) 15:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other Wikipedias(French, Chinese, German, maybe more) list 6 passengers and 3 crew as well; please confirm that 5 passengers making 8 fatalities is correct? Zarathusa (talk) 15:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

8 people per this BBC article on the funeral [[6]]. It is most likely that the other Wikipedias are not updated maybe due to lesser oversight and coordination with other language projects. Borgenland (talk) 16:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A picture of the funeral on AP: [[7]] also shows 8 coffins. Borgenland (talk) 16:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our article states "The helicopter's exact location and condition have not been disclosed" and provides a citation. We also have coords in use for the crash site – either the coords fail WP:V, or the earlier quote is outdated. Which is it? MIDI (talk) 10:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That earlier quote was there more than 24 hours ago. In light of this, I think it should go. Borgenland (talk) 10:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source is the image in this Turkish article. Abductive (reasoning) 10:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The morning crew at the BBC finally rubbed the sleep out of their eyes and found it. I have adjusted accordingly. Abductive (reasoning) 11:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ayatollah al-Hashem survived long enough to speak on the phone at least twice and update the authorities on his condition, before dying at some point before the responders arrived. Should this be reflected on the list of survivors as "0 (initially 1)" and the fatalities as 8 (initially 7)"? Varavour (talk) 15:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mean I don't think so that this needs to be pointed in infobox, like any other incident, only the final number of fatalities is given even if some die of wounds later on. Waleed (talk) 15:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A better source would still be needed though, per WP:TASS. Borgenland (talk) 15:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this was a rumour that was later proved wrong. The scene of the accident leaves no doubt that pretty much everyone died on impact and then the helicopter burned out. If he would have survived long enough to make that call he would have probably given more correct information on the seriousness of the crash, and likely would had left the wreck before it burned out. It's also impossible that he would had heard ambulances coming because they weren't anywhere nearby by then. It took the rescuers more than 12 hours after the crash to reach the place.

Honestly, I think someone made that up to try to calm down the rumours about the accident. A lot of early info proved to be wrong when they found the wreck: this wasn't a "hard landing", it literally crashed against the side of the mountain and burst into flames. They were likely all dead within max 10-15 minutes after the crash. Anyone who didn't die during impact was burned to death only minutes later. Pat2dv (talk) 17:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at 2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Would suggest the inclusion of alleged suspicion and accusation of Israel and America in to the crash.(sources: 1. https://www.business-standard.com/external-affairs-defence-security/news/why-president-ebrahim-raisi-s-death-comes-at-a-sensitive-time-for-iran-124052001331_1.html 2. https://www.livemint.com/news/world/ebrahim-raisi-assassinated-many-suspect-israels-role-behind-iran-presidents-death-officials-clarify-11716202227544.html 3. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/could-israel-be-behind-the-crash-of-iranian-president-ebrahim-raisis-helicopter/articleshow/110261625.cms 4. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/iran-president-raisi-helicopter-crash-like-a-netflix-thriller-raisis-death-revives-talk-of-mossads-free-run-in-iran-did-israel-kill-iran-president/articleshow/110268901.cms?from=mdr 5. https://vinnews.com/2024/05/20/israel-denies-involvement-in-raisis-death-iran-blames-us-for-preventing-spare-aviation-parts/)

IndianSainik (talk) 15:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli alleged involvement is mentioned in the reaction section and alleged American involvement in aftermath section Waleed (talk) 16:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No need to push speculative matters further than what is already mentioned. Borgenland (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was just mentioning it, all good and that's it. Thanks for the mention, though. IndianSainik (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah but what I had to do with that Waleed (talk) 00:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sorry I didn't noticed that. Thank you for pointing out. IndianSainik (talk) 19:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article says:

The helicopter involved, MSN 35071, registered as 6-9221, first flew around the late 1960s. The aircraft was said to be around 40 to 50 years old.

This makes no sense. The last year of the late 1960s was 1969, meaning that the helicopter was at least 2024 − 1969 = 55 years old. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 19:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reading the sources, I am fairly confident that the Reuters article means that the Bell 212 model helicopter was first developed in the late 1960s, but this specific helicopter it may be 40 to 50 years old.

I do think this section is misleading in its phrasing, as the Reuters article says "Experts said the few details available suggested it may be 40 to 50 years old.", which seems to be less certain than the phrase "The aircraft was said to be around 40 to 50 years old." I would support a complete rewriting of this section. Lunsel (talk) 19:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with your interpretation of the source (https://aviation-safety.net/ appearing not to mention any dates). The previous wording implied two different ages of this specific unit, rather than an introductory date of the model and then the age of the specific airframe involved. MIDI (talk) 19:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll propose the following wording to see if there's a consensus:

The helicopter involved was a Bell 212 model, which was initially designed by Bell Helicopter in the late 1960s, and introduced in 1971. This specific helicopter, with MSN 35071 and registered as 6-9221, is currently believed to be 40-50 years old, given the current available information. Lunsel (talk) 20:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. But someone has already changed it. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you can add the bit about when the model was designed and introduced. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the "someone" who already changed it may have been me before I commented above :). Comments on Lunsel's proposed wording: "initially", "currently", and "given the current available information" needn't be included. Bell 212 should be linked. Reworded proposal:

The helicopter involved was a Bell 212, which was designed by Bell Helicopter in the late 1960s and introduced in 1971. The airframe had the serial 35071 and was registered as 6-9221, and is believed to be 40-50 years old.

MIDI (talk) 20:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great. I like this. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 21:40, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am okay with this, thank you! Lunsel (talk) 22:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this now. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am tending to prefer 6-9207 for the Bell's tail number, which might set the cat among the pigeons. Both ASN and Airliners.net confirm this identity for Bell c/n 35071, although the IRIAF does have some history of renumbering their aircraft when it suits them. The last good photo of 6-9207 (dated 2012) shows it in basic camouflage scheme, but clearly states it is a VIP machine that transports the President. I am open to persuasion that during the last 12 years along with a spanking new paintjob, it was re-registered, but I would need to be certain of the source, and currently none of the sources allegedly supporting '6-9221' mention this serial, so where exactly has it come from?

What is not open to negotiation is the age of the machine; the design may be 40-50 years old, but this particular airframe is from 1994, making it closer to 30 years old, as per the article in Türkiye (see below). This is just basic commonsense (for an aviation buff - maybe less obvious to newspaper hacks or the general public);

Here is my synopsis of the Bell production line from that period -

c/n 35070; 6-9206 IRIAF

c/n 35071; 6-9207 IRIAF

c/n 35072; PNC-187 Policia Nacional de Colombia, w/o 22 March 1998

c/n 35073; PNC-0488 ex PNC-188

c/n 35074; PNC-189 damaged Dec 1994, later to G-BWOS Heliwork, Thruxton (UK), re-exported to Colombia April 2000

However obscure their subsequent history, these are all 1994 build machines. It is not new research - it is just how aircraft production lines work.

WendlingCrusader (talk) 21:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Skyfrostt (talk) 20:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done – No specific request provided. MIDI (talk) 21:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The crash section cites Yahoo News saying 9 were killed in the crash, but the infobox cites AP News listing the number of deaths as 8. Whichever one is wrong should be altered, if that is known. I don't have permission. JorikThePooh (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the correct number is 9 as it includes a body guard but it is already being discussed in another section Waleed (talk) 00:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect they overcounted the bodyguard. Probably need to compare it with what Iranian media actually said. Borgenland (talk) 08:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've found these videos [8] [9] in the Mehr News Agency website but I'd like to confirm if they are available under a free license before uploading them. Any thoughts? Basque mapping (talk) 21:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Template:Mehr suggests that the licence Mehr uses is compatible. Commons:Category:Mehrnews review needed might be helpful too. MIDI (talk) 08:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Since we have confirmation of the deaths of the passengers and crew on board, this can be classified as an accident. Change the Infobox to say “Accident” from “Occurrence.” 2603:8000:CD01:B7F0:D80C:7B8B:A5D7:91B4 (talk) 00:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Thank you Kiwiz1338 (talk) 03:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following "Raisi was the second president of Iran to have died in office, following Mohammad-Ali Rajai, who was killed in a bombing in 1981." Is in aftermath, it should be in background. Not relevant here.

Also the last 2 paragraphs should be in reactions.37.252.94.207 (talk) 05:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone please add a link to Uzi, Varzaqan in the intro--MarcelloIV (talk) 09:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The term imam for Mohammad Ali Ale-Hashem is a reference to his position as Imam of Friday Prayer in Tabriz. So it should be linked to Imam of Friday Prayer as imam is a very different position and has a whole other meaning. Jondoeburner (talk) 11:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This fact seems relevant, but I don't know where to put it: Iranian presidents Abolhassan Banisadr and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have both survived their own helicopter crashes while in office.^[1] — UnladenSwallow (talk) 14:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish daily Türkiye reports the following in its article [10]:

According to what an Iranian security source we reached told our newspaper, the helicopter carrying the Iranian President shared crew and passenger classification information shortly before take-off. Foreign Minister Abdollahian and Tabriz Governor Malek Rahmati were planned to travel together in helicopter number 2. At the last moment, the General of the Revolutionary Guards Corps together with the Tabriz Representative of the religious leader Ali Khamenei, Mohammad Ali Ale-Hashem, were put on the helicopter.

The helicopters carrying Raisi were [usually] selected from Russian aircraft affiliated with Revolutionary Guard Corps. A 30-year-old US-made helicopter was chosen for the Tabriz trip. Another important detail is that while the previous pilots were selected from the Revolutionary Guard Corps, the flight crew for this trip was appointed from the Army staff. Three different tracking devices were fixed on the helicopter before the accident. In addition to the standard GPRS and transponder, a special system that provides 72-hour uninterrupted signal continuity was installed in the vehicle carrying Raisi. However, the location of the helicopter could not be determined.

Not sure how reliable Türkiye is, so not putting this in the article for the time being. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 16:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a reliable source, so I've parenthetically included it. kencf0618 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielius Landsbergis said he did not feel comfortable sending condolences to Iran for its provision of militarily aid to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. 200.12.168.26 (talk) 21:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, thanks. - ZLEA _T\^C 02:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]