Comic Book Urban Legends Revealed #108
This is the one-hundredth and eighth in a series of examinations of comic book urban legends and whether they are true or false. Click here for an archive of the previous one-hundred and seven. Click here for a similar archive, only arranged by subject.
COMIC URBAN LEGEND: J.M. DeMatteis finished the story from a canceled Marvel comic series in a DC comic series.
STATUS: False
Our old pal, SanctumSanctorumComix, asked awhile back about J.M. DeMatteis’ run on Man-Thing in the late 90s, which was cut short by cancellation not ONCE, but TWICE! SanctumSanctorumComix was curious about some similarities between Man-Thing and DeMatteis’ next project, The Spectre, for DC Comics (particuarly Mr. Termineus and Monsieur Stigmonus), and wanted to know if DeMatteis basically continued his Man-Thing story in Spectre, and if not, what was DeMatteis going to do with the book?
Luckily for us, J.M. DeMatteis is a wonderful sport, and supplied me with this amazing look back at the series, to which I am extremely grateful.
Here is what Mr. DeMatteis had to say:
I am extremely proud of the work I did with Liam Sharp—and editor Mark Bernardo—on on Man-Thing. Liam is one of the most amazing collaborators I’ve ever worked with. I look back on the series with great affection.
In order to understand how screwed up the end of the series was, you have to realize that we weren’t cancelled just once, we were canceled several times! First we were told that the Strange Tales line was pretty much over and that our monthly book was being killed (this was after only four or five issues had been out, so you can see how much faith they had in us! Marvel was really in turmoil in those days and people were hitting the panic button very quickly). But, at the same time, we were also told that Man-Thing were being folded, along with Werewolf By Night, into a new oversized split-book called…Strange Tales. So we were canceled and uncanceled at the same time.
Liam and I kept working, but we got word early on—I think before the first issue had even come out—that Strange Tales was being canceled after, I think, the fourth issue, so could we please wrap up our story? We sighed, banged our heads against the wall and set to work wrapping up. Only then we were told that the book was being canceled after the second issue. Well, we’d pretty much finished the third issue…I’d plotted, the fourth…but the series was left hanging. Bob Harras had Liam finish up the art on the third story…thinking that we could bring it out in some form down the line. I don’t think he ever drew the fourth…but I’ve got the plot in my files, so I know I wrote it!
As for what we did, and were going to do, in the following issues: We had many wonderful ideas, many wonderful ways to use the characters and create new incarnations for the Man-Thing himself. We intended to take our time, but we squeezed some of those ideas into our final, never-seen issues. Ted (free of the Man-Thing forever) and Ellen were sent off into the Nexus itself to be its guardians. And we had plans for the albino Man-Thing that began to evolve in our final issues, which would have ended with a brand-new Man-Thing, nothing like the old one, in the swamp. And then there was a whole universe of new characters—Termineus, Sorrow, The Fallen Stars—that we wanted to develop.
There’s a fairly pathetic endnote to this story. Ralph Macchio, a wonderful editor, called me up one day, not long after our cancellation, and asked if I’d like to bring the Ted Sallis Man-Thing back in a Spider-Man annual. Ralph’s thinking was, “Someone’s gonna do it…and probably soon…so it might as well be you.” Ralph’s heart was in the right place…but I really should have said no. At the time I still believed our last stories would come out—and, I hoped, relatively soon—so I thought, okay, let’s give it a try.
I ended up writing a story that picked up where our last, unprinted issues left off: first big mistake, right? I mean, we’re footnoting stories that no one has ever read! And then, of course, by bringing back the Sallis Man-Thing, I undid the whole point of our final stories. Dumb, dumb, dumb. But, as Ralph noted, it was going to happen anyway, so I might as well be the guy who did it. Very Big Mistake. On top of that, Liam was only available to draw half the story and the other artist’s style, although quite strong in its own right, was diametrically opposed to Liam’s, so the art was incredibly inconsistent, to say the least.
The whole thing was a disaster. An incoherent mishmosh…and I have no one to blame but myself. Let’s all just pretend it never happened, okay?
As for the Spectre connection: I have to say that I loved the Man-Thing character of Termineus and pretty much decided that he had a distant cousin in the DC Universe. And that’s how Monsieur Stigmonus was born.
They weren’t the same guy, but they were certainly related. (At one point, after Ryan Sook left the book, I even lobbied for Liam Sharp to take over Spectre. Sadly, it didn’t work out.) There were some similarities, I suppose, between Hal’s niece Helen and Sallis’s son, Job, but they weren’t intentional. Helen’s arc wasn’t a continuation of the Job story, although, looking back on the stories, I can see some thematic similarities.
Thanks for the question, SanctumSanctorumComix, thanks for the scan of Mr. Termineus, Unofficial Index to the Marvel Universe (and specifically, in the case, Snood) and thanks so much for the history lesson, Jean Marc!!
COMIC URBAN LEGEND: Steve Epting broke into comics by entering a non-existent contest!
STATUS: True
This shocker was revealed by Steve Epting in an interview in a recent issue of Marvel Spotlight.
Spotlight: How did you get your start?Epting: I graduated with a BFA in graphic design and had been doing that for a while when I read about a contest that First Comics was holding at the Atlanta Fantasy Fair. They were going to publish the best 6-page story as a back-up in one of their books. I decided to enter just to see if there was any chance of getting into comics. I didn’t know anyone in the business and had no idea how to go about trying to break in, so I figured this was worth a shot. Well, I arrived at the convention and was surprised to find out that nobody from First Comics knew anything about the contest. They had not authorized it and told the eight or nine people who entered that they would look at the entries, but they would not be publishing anything. Another guy and I were declared the “winners” and First’s art director met with us to discuss possibly doing some work for them. That’s how I got my start, but I don’t remember the other winner’s name, and I’ve often wondered who he was and if he went on to work in comics. Who knows, maybe he’s reading this?
Epting began doing back-ups, then fill-in work for First.
Then a few issues of Whisper…
Then the Hammer of God mini-series….
By the time First closed shop in early 1991, Epting had worked on a number of projects. He then got a fill-in job at Marve on the Avengers…
then he did some more issues of Avengers, and ultimately, he ended up becoming the official artist on the book.
And he’s been a popular mainstream artist ever since!
All from a contest that did not exist.
Pretty neat, no?
COMIC URBAN LEGEND: Chuck Dixon was the original writer on Heroes Reborn Captain America
STATUS: True
Like it or dislike it, Rob Liefeld had a singular vision in mind when he took over Captain America during Heroes Reborn. Ultimately, it was writer Jeph Loeb who brought that vision to life alongside Liefeld’s artwork.
However, Loeb was not the first (or even the SECOND) writer to work on the project. Originally, writer Chuck Dixon was attached to the series.
Dixon was scripting Prophet for Liefeld’s company at the time, so the idea of him taking over the series was not much of a stretch, but it was not something Dixon was originally up for.
Ultimately, though, as quoted in one of Scott Braden’s classic old Overstreet columns,
Rob had promised that S.H.I.E.L.D. would be mine to play with, and for me, that was real attractive. I grew up on Nick Fury and S.H.I.E.L.D., and one of the reasons I told Rob that I wanted Fury in it was because he and Captain America both represent two different brands of Americanism. Cap is the heroic boy scout, while Fury is Humphrey Bogart–the “slob” hero. To me, they’re two sides of the same coin of American heroism, so I thought they’ve got to be together in the same book because they contrast so well.
Sadly, though, there was differences between the plot Dixon worked out and what Liefeld decided to go with, so Dixon left the project.
Jim Valentino, likewise, came and departed, leaving writer Jeph Loeb to take over.
Has Dixon ever written an issue of Captain America?
He’d be interesting to see write a Captain America issue.
Okay, that’s it for this week!
Feel free to drop off any urban legends you’d like to see featured!
on 22 Jun 2007 at 5:08 am 1.Jaap said …
okay, so maybe I’m not all that well-versed in comics, but Man-Thing, Spectre, to Avengers and Epting, and Captain America and Nick Fury.
Maybe it’s just me, but I think the connection to the Fantastic Four and Silver Surfer is extremely loose.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 5:46 am 2.heimdall said …
Looks like he just reused the intro text from last Friday’s entry, which actually did focus on the FF, and didn’t notice the reference to it being part of a theme week.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 7:41 am 3.Ian said …
Chuck Dixon on Captain America? Don’t even joke about that.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 10:10 am 4.Tomer said …
I wonder who was the other artist “winning” the First Comics contest.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 10:12 am 5.Bobb said …
While DeMatteis did not do, the move the story from Man-Thing to Spectre.
I recall Steve Engelhart (SP?) did move his Mantis story from The Avengers to The Justice League of America (1st series).
Wonder if this is where the legend came from?
And isn’t the opening about the special theme from last weeks column?
Bobb
(The troublemaker.)
on 22 Jun 2007 at 10:32 am 6.Shawn said …
That Liefield Cap looks like he just recieved plastic surgery in a back room in some Hanoi bar.
Sorry about double post.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 10:41 am 7.theodoros said …
I think Dixon was paid for the first 3 pages of Captain America #1 Heroes Reborn. You can see his name in the first page.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 10:53 am 8.Nick A said …
I would read a Chuck Dixon Captain America, y’know, if Chuck was allowed to work for Marvel.
The character/storyline switch from one book (and company) to another has happened at least a few times. I’m not sure about the Englehart story Bobb mentioned though.
Bobb, when did Englehart use a Mantis storyline in Justice League?
on 22 Jun 2007 at 11:19 am 9.heimdall said …
Totally off-topic here, but seeing the thing about the “contest” in the Steve Epting urban legend brought something to mind.
Back in the 90s when Malibu launched the Ultraverse, they had some contest in which you were challenged to create the “ultimate” hero.
My submission got second place, garnering me a platimum edition of Solitaire #1, which I read, then promptly tucked away and largely forgot about (over the years it became Night Man #1 in my memory).
Anyway, I never actually followed any of the Ultraverse books, so does anyone remember the contest, and who made the winning submission? Can’t find anything about it online.
If I recall correctly, first place prize was having your character appear in an Ultraverse book and getting royalties for it.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 11:40 am 10.Brian Cronin said …
Thanks for picking up the intro snafu, folks! Corrected that.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 11:43 am 11.Brian Cronin said …
I featued the Englehart Mantis one awhile back.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2005/09/15/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-16/
But yeah, I think that the precedence of Englehart doing it before combined with the similarities between Termineus and Monsieur Stigmonus are what made it seem as though DeMatteis was continuing his Man-Thing storyline in Spectre.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 12:02 pm 12.LordGorto said …
An Urban Legends involving Liefeld always makes me cringe, but this one was pretty neat. Poor DeMatteis. Is that Spectre in trade?
on 22 Jun 2007 at 1:15 pm 13.Matt Bird said …
Hey, I remember that! I wasn’t the other winner, but my brother and I did one of the other eight or so entries to that non-existant Atlanta Fantasy Fair First Comics contest! I wrote it and my brother (Steve Bird, who’s now an inker for DC) drew it. I’m sure Steve still has the pages somewhere. I, too, remember the First editors being baffled by our beaming faces. Specifically, we all did a “Munden’s Bar” back-up story for Grimjack. I was probably 13 or 14 at the time. Glad to here that Mr. Epting didn’t take “we have no idea what you’re talking about” as an answer.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 2:04 pm 14.Don said …
Too bad Dixon didn’t get a chance to flex his mind with “Heroes”.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 2:15 pm 15.Comic Reader Man said …
I remember that Ultraverse contest too…I also won the platinum logo Solitaire #1 for second place. Don’t remember who ever won if anyone…anone know what’s up with Marvel not being able legally to publish the Ultraverse characters?
on 22 Jun 2007 at 3:09 pm 16.Derek McCaw said …
Marvel is legally able to publish the Ultraverse characters — however, they have to share the profits with Platinum Studios. In the mind of the suits at Marvel, why should they work hard to market characters they’re only going to get half as much on as their own?
So we’ll never see Spider-Prime again. Though maybe in that version they only have to give a quarter of the money up.
on 22 Jun 2007 at 5:59 pm 17.J_Maggio said …
Ha! I bet everyone that entered the Ultraverse contest came in second. Everybody’s happy with their free comic and no royalties get shelled out!
on 22 Jun 2007 at 6:30 pm 18.Alextron said …
True story I was at a collectors shop today and saw Profit…. I mean Prophet #1 for 99 cents. I said “Prophet for 99 cents!”
The guy goes “I know.”
Ofcourse I didn’t buy it. By the way I saw a Prophet #5 alternate cover with Wolverine, The Hulk, and Mr. Fantastic on it. Ofcourse I didn’t buy it!
on 22 Jun 2007 at 7:40 pm 19.Roch said …
Chuck Dixon’s name appears in the credits of the Heroes Reborn Cap #1. I had him sign it at Megacon 2-3 years ago. I had about 5 comics for him to sign, and when he got to that book, he looked surprised. He told me he had never signed one of those yet. This was before Liefeld made his “comeback”, so he signed it and put in word balloon next to Cap saying “I’m outta here!”.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 4:13 am 20.Chris said …
“Back in the 90s when Malibu launched the Ultraverse, they had some contest in which you were challenged to create the “ultimate” hero.”
Along those same lines, I remember Erik Larsen ran a “Create your own character!” contest in Savage Dragon pretty early in the title’s run. I sent in a couple pretty dumb submissions but strangely one of the names I used ended up being the same name as a SD villain a few months later. Anyway, I got bored with the book before I ever saw the results so does anybody remember who won and if the character was ever used in the actual title?
Oh and a Dixon Heroes Reborn “Cap” would’ve been cool but ultimately, it wouldn’t of gone anywhere since Rob and his teams got kicked off the books after issue 6 anyway.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 4:21 am 21.SanctumSanctorumComix said …
Brian Cronin said:
But yeah, I think that the precedence of Englehart doing it before combined with the similarities between Termineus and Monsieur Stigmonus are what made it seem as though DeMatteis was continuing his Man-Thing storyline in Spectre.
You are correct, sir!
I have LONG known of the ENGLEHART/MANTIS cross-company continuing saga.
This, combined with the so obviuous similarities between the Marvel MAN-THING story (Mr. Terminious, JOB; the son of Ellen & Ted Sallis, the basic gist of the storyline) and the DC Hal Jordan SPECTRE story that was released IMMEDIATELY after Man-Thing was cancelled and JM went to SPECTRE (Monsieur Stigmonus, Hal’s neice; HELEN, and the similar storyline - as many JM DeMatteis are similar in “feel”, many being spiritual in nature) was just too much for me to ignore.
In fact, so much so, that I haver the SPECTRE issues filed in my MAN-THING long box!
ThanX Brian Cronin for tackling my question.
And MEGA thanx to J.M. DeMatteis (one of my all-time favorite writers - tied for 1st with a certain hirsute Englishman… sorry, but “V for Vendetta” is one of the best things I’ve ever read, and “Watchmen” is just insane in it’s scope) for his open candor and obvious love for the subject matter.
:-)
~P~
P-TOR
on 23 Jun 2007 at 5:29 am 22.Venkie said …
Can we NOT throw in an obligatory Liefeld bash in here? Christ. You come off looking like a jerk.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 7:56 am 23.Jeremy said …
Any D&D nerds here? I’ve always wondered about the fact that the picture of the Shambling Mound monster in the original Monster Manual looks exactly like Man-Thing, right down to the root for a “nose.” Any idea which came first?
on 23 Jun 2007 at 8:00 am 24.comixkid2099 said …
so, ghost rider got his conclusion in a spiderman comic, and man thing had his story continue in spiderman as well. neat.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 10:55 am 25.Brian Cronin said …
You’re referring to the comments, right? Cause there sure wasn’t a Liefeld bash in the piece.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 2:27 pm 26.Venkie said …
“You’re referring to the comments, right? Cause there sure wasn’t a Liefeld bash in the piece. ”
Never said there was.
Someone made a Liefeld crack, and it certainly wasnt warranted. Like, enough is enough.
Liefeld bashing went out in 1996.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 4:29 pm 27.Bert Duckwall said …
I entered and won some Malibu contest in 1995. I wrote a 2 page story dealing with one of their villains named Rafferty. I got a letter in the mail telling me I won either 2nd or 3rd place and I later received 5 gold foil cover comics as my prize. I thought this was pretty cool at the time and I still have the letter and the comics. Malibu could have been big, but I think they were set up just to get so big and lure a sucker(like Marvel) into buying them.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 5:07 pm 28.Apodaca said …
Tell that to Rob. As long as he’s getting hired for modeern work by major companies, the Liefeld-bashing is warranted.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 5:33 pm 29.T. said …
I’ve never understood why Liefeld is considered such a hack, but Kelley Jones, who’s storytelling, faces and human anatomy are equally suspect, except with added murkiness, is praised as an art god.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 7:37 pm 30.Brian Cronin said …
Yeah, but you didn’t specify that who it was, so I was confused!
on 23 Jun 2007 at 8:49 pm 31.Butch said …
Hey T., I’d consider myself a Liefeld fan– but Jones is, at the very least, a better artist technically than Rob.
on 23 Jun 2007 at 10:50 pm 32.T. said …
I guess Butch…but when I see guys with 12 packs of abs, 120 teeth in a single mouth, a double-length ribcage and other anatomical horrors that would set Liefeld-haters through the roof in Jones’s work, it boggles my mind that he not only doesn’t get half the vitriol of Liefeld, but gets hailed as one of the all-time greats. This is not a defense of Liefeld by the way.
on 24 Jun 2007 at 6:34 am 33.Wilbur Lunch said …
>Tell that to Rob. As long as he’s getting hired for modeern work by major companies, the Liefeld-bashing is warranted.
Oh come on. Did Rob come to your house and kick your dog or something? The man has the right to earn a living. If you don’t like his work - don’t buy it. VERY simple.
And yeah, Rob’s strong suit was never anatomy. He’s an idea man, not a craftsman. Same thing with Kirby. Not saying Liefeld is even remotely in the same league, but they’re in the same category of artist.
on 24 Jun 2007 at 7:54 am 34.octoberthorn said …
To my understanding, a hack is someone whose work may be (to some eyes) substandard, but continues to crank it out and get work. THAT, I think, would be the defining difference between Liefeld and Kelly Jones - Jones hands in stuff on time and in his own style (which you may not care for, but still…). Liefeld, on the other hand, has a pretty consistent track record of bailing out mid-project. Not bashing his artwork, because it’s all in the eye of the beholder, but his work ethic doesn’t qualify him to be a hack.
on 24 Jun 2007 at 1:18 pm 35.Hondo said …
Bert,
I don’t think Malibu was trying to get someone to buy them. That’s what ultimately happened, of course, but Marvel wanted to buy out the competition and gain their color process. Malibu had a respectable market share and some pretty big names working on their stuff including Barry Windsor-Smith, Steve Englehart, Steve Gerber, James Robinson, George Perez, and others. They also offered an equity stake in the characters and concepts, which was pretty cool. Eventually Marvel will bring them back, possible after they have approached the creators in question and put together a new contract with some type of royalty system that won’t have them lose as much money with the idea that half a loaf is better than none. Malibu was more “Marvel” than Marvel was at the time. Their stuff was of higher quality and more geared toward the younger demographic that Marvel wasn’t selling as well to, IMO.
on 24 Jun 2007 at 2:13 pm 36.Alan Coil said …
“And yeah, Rob’s strong suit was never anatomy. He’s an idea man, not a craftsman. Same thing with Kirby. Not saying Liefeld is even remotely in the same league, but they’re in the same category of artist.”
Equine manure.
on 24 Jun 2007 at 3:35 pm 37.Alextron said …
It’s to bad Liefeld’s Awesome Comics never took off. They had a hight quality factor artwise. Kaboom and whatever Moore wrote was usually pretty good. I think the comics world needs some more fun comics. Plus it would be intersting to see if there would any lawsuits over the Allies comic that was going to come out.
Let’s Thor, Captain Americ…. I mean, Agent AMeri… I mean, the Fighting American, Superma…. Supreme, Wonder Woman…. wait, Glory.
Still, it may of been better than the ‘New’ Avengers.
Skrulls! AH!
on 24 Jun 2007 at 7:17 pm 38.SanctumSanctorumComix said …
Kelly Jones started out with some very strong, and well drawn artwork and then, after proving that he was good allowed his personal style (which is obviously inspired by Wrightson & Mignola) to emerge.
Leifeld started as basic hack and never altered.
(Except to get worse)
That’s the difference between the two.
~P~
P-TOR
on 24 Jun 2007 at 8:10 pm 39.Silky said …
This is not a bash.
Remember the Hawk & Dove mini-series done years ago? That was Rob’s big break. If you look at it, the art is great, anatomy, perspective, & backgrounds are all there… What happened? Does anyone know what made him change styles so radically?
on 25 Jun 2007 at 6:26 am 40.Krasch said …
I’d say much of the Liefeld-bashing stems as much from his cocky attitude, especially at the height of his Marvel career, as much as from his remarkably suspect anatomy.
And that would also explain why Kelly Jones DOESN’T catch the flak like Rob does.
on 25 Jun 2007 at 6:47 am 41.DanCJ said …
I agree about the quality of the art in Hawk and Dove. I’m not sure how much of the difference is in this, but a lot of people credit the quality of that art to Karl Kesel who inked it.
Dan