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Talk:Sudanese civil war (2023–present)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ecrusized (talk | contribs) at 20:18, 18 April 2023. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Su-35 0r MiG sightings over Sudan and Blinken Statements

Hello. Do you all suggest we add the plane sightings over Khartoum or are they not notable enough to be included. Also, should I add in statements made by Anthony Blinken in Hanoi? TheWhiterCloud (talk) 10:40, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well there have been reports of airstrikes, not sure if its related to the sightings though The 64 Squares (talk) 12:21, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unofficial move request

Didn't want to WP:RM this because the article is unstable, but isn't 2023 Sudan clashes a more WP:CONCISE title? 〜 Festucalex • talk 13:04, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I guess, but I think it would be better to keep it to this until things (hopefully) settle down. TheWhiterCloud (talk) 13:36, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 April 2023

MERGED TO OTHER ARTICLE
Merged to existing article 2023 Sudan clashes. "Clashes" is what all RS are calling it, and I didn't find this article until now because it wasn't the one linked from 2023 in Sudan or 2019–2026 Sudanese transition to democracy. So there was another parallel article going. I kept most of the text from this one in the merge, nobody has to worry about their work being gone. 25stargeneral (talk) 23:37, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2023 Sudanese Armed Forces-Rapid Support Forces confrontation → 2023 Sudanese coup d'état attempt – RSF attempted to took over the power. Panam2014 (talk) 13:19, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wait. I think that the name will need to be decided when the events end or take on the clear nature of a coup / clashes / war / etc PLATEL (talk) 14:04, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. TheWhiterCloud (talk) 14:07, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. I would wait until the end of the day in Sudan. Anything could happen Braganza (talk) 15:04, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think we need to wait The 64 Squares (talk) 17:03, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to wait and see if this confrontation becomes something big, like a full out civil war, the SAD forces are already gaining a lot of ground 2601:183:4081:FEA0:EC97:ADB4:DE18:6B7E (talk) 18:07, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait. The RSF and the SAF and their leaders have been cooperating in opposing the massive civilian resistance in Sudan since December 2018, so while this could be something like an attempt at a "palace coup", it could also be interpreted as the de facto group in power trying to remove the unwanted part of the alliance, so a "strengthening of the government" as opposed to an "overthrow of the government". The current title is long, but it's accurate and neutral. We'll soon know which armed group takes/retains control, and we'll also know the reaction of the civilian population, which has shown incredible stamina in civil disobedience, and doesn't want any military government at all - whichever military group has power will have to live with continued civil disobedience, which might also contribute to how the event should be titled. Boud (talk) 19:45, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

How do you format multiple reactions from different people from the same state?

Do you do it in bullet points or all in one paragraph? The 64 Squares (talk) 14:01, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it's alright to have it as one paragraph because they will all usually be part of the same group or have similar opinions. Using too many bullet points might get a bit confusing in my opinion. TheWhiterCloud (talk) 14:03, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hemedti

@PLATEL: Hemedti is by far the more common name of Mohamed Hamdan Dagalo. see here: Better known by the nickname "Hemedti", Gen Dagalo was named deputy chairman of the Transitional Military Council that took over after the army removed Mr Al Bashir... 〜 Festucalex • talk 19:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is old and google-based, but see also Talk:Mohamed Hamdan Dagalo#Which transliteration should be the default? (Apparently the word should transcription, not transliteration.) Boud (talk) 19:48, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

map

the map should be improved + it shows Sudan's claimed borders and does not reflect the disputes Braganza (talk) 20:08, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well you can edit it of you want. Borysk5 (talk) 20:46, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Twinky

where does this name come from? doesnt seem accurate? 217.102.250.25 (talk) 10:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Re-add more International and Domestic reactions

I am not sure if it is not going to be "notable enough", but I think that having reactions from different sides within Sudan and outside Sudan could help the reader understand some of the context behind the events happening, and a lot of other pages relating to Sudan has them too such as the Sudanese Revolution or 2019 Sudanese coup d'état. TheWhiterCloud (talk) 12:05, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removing Sudan revolutionary front

The Sudan revolutionary front doesn't control any territory there was a peace agreement signed between the government and the Sudanese revolutionary front in 2020. DitorWiki (talk) 15:25, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Civil war?

Should we change the Article to "2023 Sudanese civil war"? Since the rebels took some parts of the country, there are tanks in the streets, air force is active and etc Lucasmota0975 (talk) 15:40, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have not heard any sources calling it that. 25stargeneral (talk) 15:55, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/inside-story/2023/4/14/could-standoff-in-sudan-turn-into-a-civil-war Lucasmota0975 (talk) 16:20, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That source asks "could it turn into a civil war"? That's not the same as saying it is a civil war. 25stargeneral (talk) 16:22, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, tbh lets wait more, if the clashes intensify, we consider it as a civil war Lucasmota0975 (talk) 16:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's clashes across the country and I think it's intense enough to be considered a Civil War. It's more about how long something has to last before it becomes a war instead of clashes. The Austrian Civil War only lasted 5 days and it's called such on Wikipedia. SuperDuperBoy (talk) 03:01, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's up to secondary sources on interpreting the conflict as a civil war or not. We simply report what the secondary source says- we are a tertiary source. Bremps! 05:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:NOR. Cheers, Bremps! 05:13, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are primary sources not taken into account? Jimmy Jimbo Johnson the V (talk) 05:35, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm under the impression that we prefer secondary sources. For instance, if someone posted firsthand photos of a massacre in Sudan on Facebook, we would rather cite a BBCreport that covers it rather than the Facebook photos themselves. Take my word with a grain of salt, though. Bremps! 16:13, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Too soon to tell, I recommend waiting a short while (around a few months or so) to see if the majority of secondary sources refer to it as such. As the main person updating the Simple English page for the 2023 Sudan clashes this is very important. FusionSub (talk) 10:07, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You have to make a quick change, this is not just skirmishes, it is at the national level. the title should be civil war or rebellion in sudan 2023. Matias Taboadaxx (talk) 11:02, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Uprising might be a better description. It's too soon to say if this will become a civil war. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Flag salad "Reactions" section

As many of you know, most editors despise the list-formatted "Reactions" section, especially the flag icons. This section should be converted into prose--not a bulleted list. Sourcing should not be primary, such as tweets. Abductive (reasoning) 21:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was prose when I wrote it. But there are some editors who really love the flags, and I've learned it's futile to fight it. 25stargeneral (talk) 21:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not futile, they are violating a number of guidelines and policies. Abductive (reasoning) 00:31, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, I agree with you. But flags tend to stay from the overwhelming volume of edits adding them in. Thus, in the past, efforts to remove them have indeed been futile. I hope you may succeed where others have failed. 25stargeneral (talk) 00:50, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea, we'll take them to ANI for vandalism. Abductive (reasoning) 07:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move reversion.

@25stargeneral, may you please explain more about why using the demonym in the title is not appropriate? It seems more grammatically correct to me. - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 21:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A demonym is a term used to refer to groups of people in relation to a place. It is not used to identify the place itself. These kinds of moves have always ended up being reverted on those grounds. 2021 Myanmar coup d'état was originally called 2021 Burmese coup d'état. A battle or a coup does not have an ethnicity or nationality. Rather, the title refers to the location where the event took place. 25stargeneral (talk) 21:59, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since you left out "war", would that mean an article like the American Revolutionary War would be an exception due it being a war, even though it uses a demonym? - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 22:06, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is a common term established by reliable sources, and it does refer to the American people in that case. This isn't a popular revolution of the Sudanese people. That took place in the Sudanese Revolution. We're talking about clashes within the military. The Sudanese people as a whole don't have much to do with it. 25stargeneral (talk) 22:09, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That makes way more sense. Thank you very much. - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 22:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Part of

I think there should be rather a "Sudanese Crisis (2018–)" article that this article being part of "Sudanese transition to democracy" Braganza (talk) 09:16, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can this be called third Sudanese civil war ? 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:249E:B5AB:FF65:E107 (talk) 09:19, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

i mean rather about the coups & revolution since 2018 Braganza (talk) 09:25, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah but the figthing is not just a coup this a full on civil war 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:249E:B5AB:FF65:E107 (talk) 09:33, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How do we define a coup over a civil war on Wikipedia?

I am asking this as I feel like this may drag on for a bit, and in case someone proposes a move to a coup or civil war. - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 11:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources, most of which are currently describing the fighting as clashes. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No longer clashes, now conflict

If you google “sudan conflict” you’ll see many sources that call this conflict, so why can’t we move to 2023 Sudan conflict then? like 2008 Lebanon conflict 88.240.249.213 (talk) 00:18, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've only seen 4 articles refer to it as such, maybe in a week or 2 from now there will be enough to confidently move the article. FusionSub (talk) 10:11, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The current name minimizes the size of what's going on. There are pitched battles ongoing all over the country. Tons of articles call this a "conflict" see here for example [1], [2], [3] some even go so far to say that it is a war or civil war.XavierGreen (talk) 13:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Abbreviation hovers

The usage of {{Abbreviation}} for RSF seems excessive for every usage of "RSF". The parenthetical "Rapid Support Forces (RSF)" should suffice in the lead paragraph.

SAF (Sudanese Armed Forces) hasn't been named in the lead paragraph, so some spare usage for that seems fine. 93 (talk) 04:26, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I frankly added them because I confused the two but feel free to reduce thier frequency, I may over did it FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:03, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The issue with the abbreviation SAF is that the abbreviation could be used for both the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Sudanese Air Force which could cause unnecessary confusion but I am in favour of reducing the frequency of {{Abbreviation}} in reference to the Rapid Support Forces. FusionSub (talk) 10:16, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly I am now sometimes confusing the SAF with the Sudanese Air Force. Maybe we could use "government forces" instead. Borgenland (talk) 05:40, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Trivial information and double writing of material

@FuzzyMagma: I did not remove "information abou assult on the ambassador and us convey". I moved it to a different section. I have also removed information about closure of airspace because it is already included. I do not have to make small and incremental edits at all. Please familiarize yourself with WP:BRD. Ecrusized (talk) 10:31, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How the US convey attack is a casualty if there is no casualty?
and it’s meaningless to revert your edit before this discussion is concluded because it will just become an edit war. Respect this discussion and be patient.
the timeline section is for the events which should include both ambassadors incidents. The other events in the timeline does not happen in a vacuum there is also people being killed or injured during them but they still stay there. FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:46, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't even understand what you're trying to say. I simply moved the sentence about the attack on US envoy to foreign casualties section. Ecrusized (talk) 11:10, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It’s not a casualty if no one is injured. What word you don’t understand. Do you understand what casualties mean? FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:51, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Change the title to "Third Sudanese Civil war"

Sources are starting to call it a civil war: https://www.newsdrum.in/international/sudans-civil-war-enters-its-fourth-day-with-no-sight-of-any-relief

Also i think the clashes got intense enough to consider it as a civil war Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 14:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Lucasoliveira653 does CNN, BBC, AlJazeera and the majority of the new outlets called it that? I think if we have that consensus then it is easier to move the page to 2023 Sudan or Sudanese civil war FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:44, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still no, but if the fighting intensify, they gonna probabaly call it civil war Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 15:01, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 April 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: WP:SNOW. Not described as such by any RS yet, not moved . (non-admin closure) Ecrusized (talk) 20:15, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Sudanese clashes → Third Sudanese Civil War – Technically, the crisis is escalating into a civil war (Probably it is right now). I mean, residential buildings are being bombed and the casualties number is increasing significally. However, we will wait for a bit until we change to this title. Just like in february and march 2011, when the Libyan War was called Libyan uprising and was changed to Libyan Civil War afterwards also in march 2011. TankDude2000 (talk) 15:24, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We'll change it if and when multiple RS report it as a war. Bremps! 16:09, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I would look to the discussion right above this one on the talk page, once reliable sources begin to refer to it as such we will follow that. Yeoutie (talk) 16:11, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Only sources I've seen that come close only say it's approaching civil war, but haven't found any that call it one yet. This certainly isn't enough to justify changing the article title. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:14, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We’ll rename it ONLY if the situation escalates. 82.76.85.110 (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is it clearly a Civil War from the start

Let’s be honest, the fighting was too intense for just being a coup d'é·tat plus the deaths are skyrocketing and the fighting is already a start of a Civil War so I think changing this article to the third Sudanese Civil War makes much sense, and it’s not wait for like months to just call it. This was a clearly a Civil War from the start. 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:F450:4765:4F5D:96BD (talk) 17:52, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need a map right now?

There's frustratingly little information on who controls what in the country, so I think putting a map in the infobox is a bit premature. We could add a map that shows areas of major fighting though Scaramouche33 (talk) 18:23, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the map should be kept C4rstv0 (talk) 19:23, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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