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I raised this point at WP:Outcomes but am wondering is this might be the better spot: Should a sachem have presumed notability? It seems to me that as the paramount chief of their people, they should be at the same level as a colonial governor. The problem, however, is that as native peoples did not leave behind extensive written records there are not going to be as many sources about them as there are about their European counterparts. Presumed notability would solve this problem. --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 16:25, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When I was putting up a music band bio up for AfD, after a speedy delete was contested, I tried to originally see if I could do a PROD delete on the article first. When I did so, I used "Show Preview" to see if any warning came up saying the article had been nominated for deletion in the past. There was, but the bizarre thing I found was that the AfD the warning linked to was not related to the subject of the article - in fact, it was for an article about a band with the same name (which has since been deleted). If you check this AfD - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Clairvoyants - you will notice that the links seem to go to the article with that name, but not concerning a band, but rather magicians.

Does anyone think when an article is deleted, the name should be tagged and used as a notification mechanism to say something like: "The article's title that you have tried to submit has already been used in an article that has since been deleted. Please use a different name or modify the existing one to highlight what the subject concerns."? GUtt01 (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:17, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? If someone creates an article with the same name as another article that was deleted, and they put it up for AfD, wouldn't that cause an issue? They might find they can't do so, and would need to 2nd nominate it as a result, which seems bizarre, since they are nominating the article for the first time, despite it baring the name of an article about a different subject. I mean, when we make articles about someone, and that person's name is already the subject of another article, we tend to differentiate between the two by highlighting the second by what the subject is. For example, if we already have a subject on a person who was a composer, and then create an article concerning someone of the same name but who was a footballer, naturally we highlight the second's title with "#Name# (footballer)". GUtt01 (talk) 09:21, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would have thought that is was pretty obvious why not, and the terseness of my reply was intended to prompt you to think about it for a bit more than four minutes. Phil Bridger (talk)

Wikipedia's policies and guidelines shouldn't be tailored around making it easier to delete content at the expense of creating content. pburka (talk) 13:14, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm not saying to make it easier, I just think that creating a new article with the same name as one that had been deleted, on a different subject, should clarify the subject of the new article under that name. It is rather bizarre to have to 2nd nominate an article for deletion, when it was nominated for deletion before but under a different subject to the name, than to the one that the second nomination concerns. GUtt01 (talk) 14:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that someone's created an article under the same name before doesn't mean a new article is more or less entitled to use that name. The possibility of tracking these is technically challenging, because there's no a priori way for the software to tell if a recreation using a previously deleted name reflects an identical subject or a different one. In other words, the large difficulties and small benefits make Phil Bridger's simple "no" an entirely sensible answer. Jclemens (talk) 15:54, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jclemens: Thanks for the explanation. So what we can gather from this is that while the matter is certainly bizarre, there is a large, technical difficulty in tracking and keeping record of names used for another subject that was deleted. Ok, fair enough. Just wanted to ask about this at all - I think your explanation makes it clear to me about this now. Guess I should just contend with this as best as I can. GUtt01 (talk) 16:00, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have a little more time on my hands now, so I will offer an example of one of the several problems with this. Someone could write an article about me under the title Phil Bridger today, and it would be deleted because I am not notable. Then a namesake could be elected US president in 2036, and he would obviously be notable, but the article about him wouldn't be able to have his name as the title because the article about me was once deleted. That is surely not what we want to happen. The situation that you describe in your original post happens occasionally but is easily dealt with by simply pointing out in the WP:PROD rationale that the article is about a different subject. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:11, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Could another solution be to find a way to code the PROD to recognise that an article that previously held the same name, was already deleted in its AfD? GUtt01 (talk) 09:05, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But that still wouldn't tell us whether an article is about the same subject or an accidental namesake. This only happens occasionally, so surely rather than have people spend many hours developing and testing something that tries to automate this it's better for the nominator in each case to spend a couple of seconds checking whether the subject is the same, something that's easy for a human to do but very difficult to automate to any acceptable degree of accuracy. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:19, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, fair point. GUtt01 (talk) 09:39, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi - Help desk volunteer here. I noticed a series of articles about video game developers and animators that seem to have been created by the same editor and have been nominated for deletion. One is Harry Partridge. The article has been repeatedly redirected and recreated. An IP editor arguing for the article's notability makes the argument that point 3 of WP:AUTHOR says the person is notable if they created a notable work. In Partridge's case, the work is the short cartoon Saturday Morning Watchmen. It appears barely notable itself, yet it has an article, so theoretically point 3 is met. There is virtually no coverage of Mr. Partridge, so short of point 3 of WP:AUTHOR, it's an easy redirect vote if we just apply WP:GNG. Is the only path to AfD the cartoon, and then return to the Partridge AfD? Has this seeming exception to NOTABILITY IS NOT INHERITED come up before? Another similar article is Justin Stander. His bio info is also sparse, but in his case, he created two video games that have articles, so a redirect is harder. They also seem to be more notable. His article is being nominated for deletion and defended using the same WP:AUTHOR vs. WP:GNG argument. I don't know how to vote to clear the logjam. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 06:39, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Bear in mind that meeting WP:AUTHOR is not a guarantee that the subject is notable, but merely an indicator that the subject is likely to be notable. If a subject passes WP:AUTHOR but fails the basic criteria then the article can still be deleted or redirected somewhere else. In any case WP:AUTHOR point 3 asks for "significant or well-known work or collective body of work", not merely creating a single notable work. Hut 8.5 07:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Hut 8.5: Thanks - that helps clarify. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 03:23, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I recently came across a question regarding the draft of an elected corporator in the Municipal Corporation of Greater Mumbai, and was a little stumped that NPOL would not apply to the elected officials of one of the most populous cities in the world. The MCGM, in fact, has a greater budget than some of India's smaller states, and we have articles for the legislators of the states as well. So, I'd like to ask if NPOL should apply to the major cities of the world. JavaHurricane 03:14, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

JavaHurricane, if the MCGM is effectively the city council or municipal political body for Mumbai and the larger area, then I would say it falls under the better explained concept in WP:POLOUTCOMES:

City councillors and other major municipal officers are not automatically notable. But precedent has tended to favor keeping members of the main citywide government of internationally famous metropolitan areas such as Toronto, Chicago, Tokyo, or London.

In this case I would include Mumbai among these famous metropolitan areas. Bkissin (talk) 21:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should look into whether the English language Wikipedia's criteria for BLPs in regards to people in this industry are too strict in so far as deleting pages. In the English-speaking world pornography is largely quite a taboo topic so it’s expected that pornographic actors generally get little coverage in reliable mainstream publications. However, I don't think this justifies their pages being deleted. We must look at the person in the context of the industry. The industry is a major one and I think if there is good coverage of the person from large and reliable pornographic publications like AVN (which is listed on WP:RSP as an agreed generally reliable source), but little to none in mainstream publications, that shouldn't necessarily mean their page is deleted. I have noticed there are many major performers in the industry that have multiple Wikipedia pages in a variety of languages but many miss out on English pages. Take ES:Madison Ivy or ES:Sophie Dee for example who have a page on 12 and 17 different Wikipedia language pages respectively but are deemed not notable enough/not meeting criteria on the English language Wikipedia. Why have all these languages deemed the person notable, yet the English Wikipedia seems to stand as an outlier denying them a page? The industry is a legitimate profession and I think that its taboo in the English speaking language is causing bias in regards to people asking too much of performers in terms of sources and criteria for them to have a page on the English language Wikipedia. I think we should look into the rules of other language Wikipedia's and see how they differ and what we can learn from them. Editor’s feedback would be much appreciated, especially those that edit other language Wikipedia pages. If you think this discussion should take place elsewhere, please direct me to the right place to post this message for the most feedback possible from other editors. Thanks. Helper201 (talk) 18:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to volunteer to research this issue. EEng 19:05, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Notability here is generally determined by whether the subject has substantial coverage in independent reliable sources. The secondary standards we have are generally indicators that such coverage is likely to exist. There are good reasons for this, if there isn't much coverage of the subject of this type then the article will have to be either very short or poor quality. This page used to have an standard that people who had won some types of porn awards were presumed to be notable, but there were too many cases where people who had won those awards had little source coverage. The different language Wikipedias are independent and they can have very different inclusion criteria, particularly if you compare large wikis to small ones. The fact a version of Wikipedia has an article on someone doesn't even mean the article meets their inclusion standards. Hut 8.5 19:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• If anything, there is a belief that we are a little too lenient on porn-star articles here. Wikipedia is not a directory service, and we are under no obligation to enshrine everybody who ever won a Porny for Best Three-Way Girl-on-Girl Action, or whatever. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:57, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• A tricky topic to be sure. Put the notability bar too high? it may invite censorship. Put the notability bar too low? it may invite trouble. GoodDay (talk) 20:03, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think part of the issue is dedicated pornographic sources are often dismissed out of hand as being unreliable or not enough justification for the retention of the page. Sophie Dee as seen on the linked page above has won multiple awards, as have others without English pages such as ES:Dani Daniels. It’s just that most of the sources that discuss them are dedicated pornographic news sources, but as seen with the example of AVN these can be reliable. Perhaps there should be an effort to discuss more sources dedicated to the pornographic industry and have their individual reliability status listed among the sources on WP:RSP? I understand that just because an article exists on another language Wikipedia doesn't necessarily mean it meets its inclusion criteria. However, a lot of these pages have existed for many years and had many editors editing them (Sophie Dee's page has existed since 2009 on the Spanish Wiki, Madison Ivy's on the Spanish Wiki since 2012, and Dani Daniels on the Spanish Wiki since 2014). So going by the fact they have existed for that many years and not been deleted likely indicates they meet inclusion criteria. Part of my point is that so many actors routinely meet a range of individual criteria for a large range of Wikipedia languages but English is one that seems to consistently an outlier among them all. The pages I have linked all have pages on large language Wikipedia's such as Spanish, German, French, Italian, Portuguese and others. Helper201 (talk) 20:14, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• It should be pointed out that there used to be a part of WP:NBIO for pornographic actors at WP:PORNBIO, but this was removed via RFC in 2019 at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)/Archive 2019#PORNBIO. The language before removal can be seen here [1]. The reason, as it appears, is because like some other areas (mixed-martial arts also comes to mind) there is a lot of self-serving media that creates a false sense of notability from the industry itself but very little from outside it, and because of that, it was decided that there should be no "porn" specific allowances. They can still meet SNGs for any creative person or the GNG. I suspect that because we used to have this langauge on en.wiki that other wikis had followed suit and hence why some porn actors have articles at multiple other wikis. --Masem (t) 20:13, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is regardless of people's views on it pornography has existed in some form or another for thousands of years and is one of the highest grossing industries in existence. Dedicated sources to smaller mediums can be justified in inflating their sense of notability by the use of self-serving media but this industry stands apart regardless of this in terms of its extensive history, popularity and business/profitability. Helper201 (talk) 20:22, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, it's a big industry, but so is concrete manufacturing. We don't have a lot of coverage on people in that industry either.

So, as noted above, there is a history about this. And (for reasons I'll leave as an exercise for the reader), we had a guideline, WP:PORNBIO, which was really inclusive, in the sense that we had articles on actors who had only appeared in ensemble scenes and of whom we didn't know their real names or anything else, but which came under under PORNBIO, which people would stand on in fair numbers at WP:AFD and it was annoying to deal with this. NPORN was paaaainfully chipped away at and eventually thrown off the sleigh. So, there might be a little bit of a backlash situation here.

So porn actors now come under WP:NACTOR which basically mean they have to qualify under WP:BIO/WP:GNG and we're kind of leery to going backwards again.

The actors get little mainstream coverage. You vouchsafe that it's due to squeamishness, but I think it's because porn is different from mainstream film and theater, in that people just don't much care about the actors. I would suppose that for all except real enthusiasts, the productions are interchangeable in a way that mainstream entertainment productions aren't.

As to say ES:Madison Ivy... a lot of her material and refs is for things like being nominated for (not even winning) AVN Awards for being in Best Group Lesbian Sex Scene" and "Best Tease Performance" and "Best Boobs" and XBIZ Awards "Best Sex Scene". Even the Academy Awards doesn't give awards for individual scenes, let alone being in a group scene. I mean so the industry gives out awards like candy, but so what? Anybody can give out awards. I give out awards. Heck I have an IFPA Cindy Award myself.

A lot of industries have awards. The American Pyrotechnics Association has the Milton Dropo award, etc etc etc. Milton Dropo himself doesn't have an article nor any other fireworks people I think. Should we have articles for all the winners of the Milton Dropo award. We don't have articles for winners of Miss Montana and yadda yadda.

The refs for Madison Ivy are almost all listing of awards at "adultfilmdatabase", which is [here [NSFW!]. Picking a ref at random, here [NSFW!] we have Ivy with a bare listing among nine other players in "Porn Stars Love Facials", the description being "These nasty little minxes can't get enough of that sweet, sweet love juice! Who doesn't like a happy ending? These professional fuck starlets love them especially all over the face! Lots of pretty faces all slathered in cum butter!" and that's it, except for a couple production details like "Director: Unknown".

All righty-roo then. Is this "encyclopedic"? Matter of opinion I guess.

So anyway, one problem with that site (which is used for 19 of her 28 refs) is, how reliable is it? No way to know, but the vibe I get from going to the main page... I'm happy that these people want to fuck their stepdad and all, but I'm not sure that that indicates a rigorous independent fact-checking operation there. There's nothing whatsoever about who is the publisher, what kind of staff they have, location, or any other single thing about the site. It's a blank.

Another is, I mean, a lot of people can't access the ref, without risking real-world consequences. I mean beside the extremely graphic hardcore sex pix and all, right there above the fold we get racist stuff ("Blacked Raw") and (at least simulated) possible statutory rape stuff ("Cheeky Teens") and just so much more. For my part, it's a factor as to whether its an acceptable ref.

I'm super happy for the Spanish and all, but this is our Wikipedia, Madison Ivy does not appear to meet WP:BIO (I can't read Spanish) and so no, I'd be against carving out a special exemption for her. We do have special exemptions -- populated places, individual species, and some other -- but I'm not on board for this one, sorry. Herostratus (talk) 22:10, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)That doesn't mean the sources are good indicators of notability. Wikipedia should not be used for promotion, which is basically why porn industry news sources exist. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:12, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is why I compared it to the same situation around MMA circa 2015-ish. Nothing perverted about MMA, just that too many sources from MMA are overly self-promotional. And I would also compare this to the same situation around cryptocurrency (though that's less about bios) - too many sources dealing exclusively with that are all about self-promotion, and hence why we don't allow them to be used for notability. We're not censored, so if a porn actor met NACTOR, GNG or another other SNG, we'll gladly have an article on them. --Masem (t) 22:21, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• My feeling is just that the pornographic industry is not really treat as an encyclopaedic topic, and is somewhat prejudiced against by some editors. A DRV I started not long ago, following the AVN RfC that found it to be generally reliable, found that at least one editor argued that the deprecation discussion for WP:PORNBIO ([2]) meant porn industry sources aren't acceptable for notability, although the rationale used in that RfC seems to have been PORNBIO's redundancy to NBIO/GNG. The goalposts are kinda being moved when it comes to this particular industry. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:19, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Herostratus in regards to Madison Ivy that's why I selectively didn't mention her in regards to awards and instead stated ES:Dani Daniels and ES:Sophie Dee, as like you said with Madison Ivy the vast majority is nominations over awards, whereas both these people have won quite a few awards, especially the former. These are just examples I've plucked at random though, feel free to look yourself into other language pages of people in the industry. Helper201 (talk) 22:35, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you ProcrastinatingReader. Helper201 (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thought I'd highlight this proposal I made above encase it gets buried to see what others also think about this specifically - "Perhaps there should be an effort to discuss more sources dedicated to the pornographic industry and have their individual reliability status listed among the sources on WP:RSP?". Helper201 (talk) 22:39, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would like more participation at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 November 6 - Wikipedia. Not sure if people can still see the version before deletion. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 03:59, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]