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My Mirror Image

I've packaged in all the articles in the sixth season of Scrubs except for My Musical. Wikipedia:Notability states that articles should have "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." These episodes haven't received much, or in most cases nearly any, coverage from secondary sources and consist of plot summaries, trivia, songs used, and other primary information. 17Drew 03:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep. They just need more sources. Like any other TV show or movie, primary information is going to dominate the article, as it should. In this case, it's Scrubs which I don't even need Google to know it's notable. And may I ask, why just season 6? All the other seasons still have their episodes. - Rocket000 03:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Scrubs is notable, but individual episodes are not since notability is not inherited and there is not out-of-universe information from secondary sources. I only nominated season 6 since nominating every (or nearly every) Scrubs episode would be rejected since there would be too many articles for people to have the chance to evaluate each one's notability. 17Drew 03:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, please don't cite "essays" to argue your case, since consensus has not been previously established. Second, I meant because of the notability of Scrubs I don't have to use Google to know there's information out there on each episode, not the show itself. Actually, nevermind, I'll just point you to WP:IMRIGHTPOLICY ...once I write it. -Rocket000 04:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about this then: The fact that the show is notable and has received coverage by secondary sources does not mean that each individual episode has received coverage by secondary sources. Referring to the essay is a quicker and less patronizing way of saying the same thing, where as referring to WP:IMRIGHTPOLICY (which would be an essay, not a policy) could easily be rebutted since there's no reasoning behind it. If you are aware of significant coverage by secondary sources, please provide it. From what I see, almost all of the information out there is from unreliable sources, and there's not enough information to provide an encyclopedic article with out-of-universe information from independent sources. 17Drew 07:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, fair enough, I just searched for an episode at random - My Turf War - on Goggle yielding independent information (which simply confirmed stuff already in the articles) in addition to reviews/commentary, which I added a few links to the bottom of the page. Honestly, I don't watch the show and have little interest in expanding the articles, so the burden of proof shouldn't be on me, even though that's what happen in a situation like this. If we had some really dedicated fans trying to keep these articles, significant references would be provided, and they would be kept. It all comes down to timing - when an article is nominated and who is reading/responding the nomination at the time. That's why things are nominated over and over again until the desired result is obtained. POV deletionism. Another thing, this season comes out next month on DVD[1], which will generate a lot more secondary source coverage. - Rocket000 16:48, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment They don't need "more" references - they need "some" references. Without secondary sources, each episode must go. And primary sources should not dominate articles - television shows are not exceptions to Wikipedia requirements. Plot summaries do not make encyclopedic entries. MarkBul 04:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, but why delete these, I think they're at least a start. Why have someone re-do what's already there? I always hated do the summary part anyway. With these in place, it'll be much easier to make worthy article. By the wording of your first sentence, you make it sound like there are no sources. No, they need more/other/different/additional references. Anyway, with all the books out there on TV show seasons, I know there are plenty to choose from. Or just pick up a Entertainment Weekly or a TV Guide. By the way, I meant primary information should dominate not primary sources. When you go to a article about a movie, your gonna want to know what it's about, who's in it, what's it rated, when it came out, what songs are in it, etc. That's primary information. Things obtain directly from the source. It should be dominate. I mean reviews are important, but, since those are POV, not so much in a encyclopedia. Facts are better. - Rocket000 05:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I am tired of seeing things like episodes of notable TV shows and albums by notable artists WP:LAWYERed into deletion based on WP:NOTINHERITED. A description of each episode of a wildly popular TV show is inherently encyclopedic, but would be way too long to merge into the parent article, so it makes sense to split them off from the parent article. Demanding multiple independent source coverage for every episode does nothing but remove relevant, encyclopedic content and make this website less worthwhile for people seeking information about the show. Some of us are trying to write an encyclopedia, here. Chubbles 06:20, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you disagree with subjects needing coverage by secondary sources, discuss that at Wikipedia talk:Notability. But the fact that you disagree with a pretty fundamental guideline doesn't mean that there isn't consensus behind it and that it shouldn't be followed. 17Drew 07:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you are adhering to the letter of the policy while violating its spirit. The notability of Scrubs is unquestionable; the content of its episodes is the only reason it has an article, because if it did not have episodes, it would not be a TV show, no one would watch it and no one would write about it in reliable sources. The content of the episodes is encyclopedic. If you have a better suggestion for where this content belongs on Wikipedia, I'll hear it, but "in the circular file" is a foolish answer. Chubbles 07:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOT#PLOT unequivocally states that articles about fiction require out-of-universe information from secondary sources, in both letter and spirit. It also states that it applies to series and stand-alone works. An appropriate level of detail is already present in List of Scrubs episodes. 17Drew 07:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Wikipedia is not paper. Scrubs isn't Doctor Who but it's a notable TV programme and there is enough useful information about each show to warrant an individual article. How would wikipedia be improved by removing these pages? Nick mallory 06:55, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It would be improved because it prevents Wikipedia from becoming an indiscriminate collection of information. TV episodes should not have articles unless they have out-of-universe information from secondary sources. 17Drew 07:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletions. —17Drew 07:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete- Guys, this unquestionably violates WP:EPISODE (and yes, that's a consensus-approved policy). Read it, this is precisely the sort of thing it was written for. This is not WikiLawyering, it's called enforcing consensus, which is sort of what this place is supposed to run on. Bullzeye^{(Ring for Service)} 08:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep - the deletion proposal itself violates WP:EPISODE, which is quite specific about promoting merges and discouraging deletion. Furthermore, there are numerous additional sources available for most if not all of the episodes, including independent reviews from notable secondary sources, and cast and crew commentaries. "Needing improvement" is not grounds for deletion. --Ckatz^chat_spy 08:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - further to my note above, WP:EPISODE specifically states:

"Avoid listing episodes for AfD unless they are completely unverifiable and original research."

This is clearly not the case with these articles. --Ckatz^chat_spy 08:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

None of what you've said amounts to a speedy keep. Regardless, nobody has shown yet that "there are numerous additional sources", and it's hard to argue that cast/crew commentaries being published by ABC would be independent sources. WP:EPISODE suggests merging and redirecting before AfD. List of Scrubs episodes already has brief plot summaries, so I AfDed the articles since it seems unlikely that there are many people searching for a TV episode titled My Coffee, though I wouldn't oppose redirecting. 17Drew 09:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about his, episode My Fifteen Seconds, a mid-season article of little importance compared to other episodes. Do a little rummaging, and oh wait, whats this [2]? Why its an article from a Nursing organisation, critising scrubs for portraying Nurses wrongly. Hmm, that sounds like an independent, 3rd party source providing critcism. Hows that?--Jac16888 10:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Chubbles. --Itub 09:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, this nomination reeks of someone trying to WP:Point, and notability can be established, see My Musical, well on its way to be a FAC, and it won't be the last. Also Keep per Ckatz's quote from WP:EPISODE, actually telling you not to do this. Finally, Keep because, even if you do delete all these, it won't last, because these episode articles are essentially why thousands of people come to wikipedia, to read the episode articles for all the hundreds of tv shows that have articles. You've got a problem Drew, you're looking at this the complete wrong way, as an editor trying to follow policy(far too rigidly by the way). What you need to do is try and put yourselves in the shoes of a reader, remember there are far more people who come here purely to read articles than there are who edit. What do you think a person who misses an episode of a program and comes on here to find out what happened wants? a brief entry in a list, or a detailed plot summary with some other bits of info thrown in. And yes you can say something "they can go to another wiki", but they wouldn't. They would(and do, in July the scrubs article was the 40th most viewed article on the whole of wikipedia, [3]) and if they found no entry, that could put them off wikipedia, which is nothing without editors. Why do you think trivia sections are so common on episode articles, its because people, ordinary non-wikipedian people watch the show, notice something they think is amusing and decide to add it to an article. I know because thats how i became a regular editor, a plot summary wasn't long enough, so i added to it. I bet there are many, many other editors who started out this way. Lets say for a second you did delete all these articles, how long do you think it will be before someone signs up and makes a new one? If you want an example of this, look at The Todd's article. A while ago, the list of his "high-fives" had gotten too big so it was removed, it was unencylopedic anyway. But practically everyday, someone adds another one to the short paragraph making it bigger and bigger, till eventually we will have to remove in again. You need to stop thinking like an Editor, and try thinking like a reader. Sorry for the long rant--Jac16888 10:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh and by the way, what made you choose Scrubs? It wouldn't be because you though you could get these deleted easier because its not one of the most popular shows. Why didn't you nominate the Heroes articles? Would it be because you know that there would be that much backlash against you, they'd all be speedy kept, even though those articles are even worse than the scrubs ones, with about as much "real world" details as one of Dubya's speech's--Jac16888 10:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:POINT has nothing to do with this; WP:NOT#PLOT does. It's really quite straightforward; TV episodes that don't have significant out-of-universe information from secondary sources don't belong on Wikipedia. These aren't the first in-universe fiction articles I've nominated; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Toy Meets Girl (redirect), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/All My Circuits (delete), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Futurama products (2nd nomination) (delete), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of secondary characters from Futurama (delete). If people are coming to Wikipedia looking for plot summaries, that's a problem. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an indiscriminate collection of information. I didn't "choose" Scrubs, by the way. I was surprised that there were article episodes for it, so I brought them here. If the Heroes ones are bad, they should be deleted or redirected too. In fact, that was going to happen but didn't because of a revamp project that doesn't appear to have done anything. 17Drew 11:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Jac16888. Nominations like this need to stop. POV deletionism, hatred of trivia, policycruft, and applying blanket exclusion rules to things that need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis are hurting Wikipedia. Some people forget what Wikipedia really is, and would be better off working for Encyclopædia Britannica Online. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rocket000 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep If Wikipedia has policies saying individual episodes aren't notable, then Wiki needs to change. Scrubs is very popular. Lots42 11:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all. There is List of Scrubs episodes which covers the matter in a quite appropriate level of detail, therefore merge is not necessary. I must note that the nominator is right citing WP:NOT#PLOT, WP:EPISODE and WP:N, and most keepers are quoting WP:NOTPOLICY, WP:PERABOVE, WP:ITSINHERITED and WP:ITSNOTABLE. We merge only when there's something to merge, and all I see are plots, plots, plots. Duja► 12:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete All: Per WP:EPISODE. These clearly do not meet that guideline. - Rjd0060 14:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all per the nomination, fails the WP:EPISODE guidelines. Burntsauce 17:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Once again, WP:EPISODE does not endorse deleting these articles. They are not "unverifiable" and they are not "original research", which are the only cases where the guideline even mentions AfD. In fact, these episodes quite specifically meet many of the points in the guideline that would suggest keeping the articles. There are qualified independent reviews available (not fan sites, but reliable sources such as IGN), and the episode commentaries do count as valid sources. Add even the few items other editors have found from quick searches, and WP:EPISODE dictates keeping and expanding the articles. --Ckatz^chat_spy 17:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete All You naughty boys didn't tell me there was already a List page of all these episodes. MarkBul 17:39, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 55: / Line 55: @@
 *'''Delete all''' per the nomination, fails the [[WP:EPISODE]] guidelines.  [[User:Burntsauce|<b><FONT COLOR="#DD3300">Bur</FONT><FONT COLOR="#DD6600">nt</FONT><FONT COLOR="#DD9900">sau</FONT><FONT COLOR="#DDC000">ce</FONT></b>]] 17:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 *'''Comment''': Once again, [[WP:EPISODE]] does '''not''' endorse deleting these articles. They are '''''not''''' "unverifiable" and they are '''''not''''' "original research", which are the '''''only''''' cases where the guideline even mentions AfD. In fact, these episodes quite specifically meet many of the points in the guideline that would suggest ''keeping'' the articles. There ''are'' qualified independent reviews available (not  fan sites, but reliable sources such as IGN), and the episode commentaries ''do'' count as valid sources. Add even the few items other editors have found from quick searches, and [[WP:EPISODE]] dictates ''keeping'' and ''expanding'' the articles. --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small><sup>[[User_talk:Ckatz|<font color="green">chat</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ckatz|<font color="red">spy</font>]]</sub></small>'' 17:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Delete All''' You naughty boys didn't tell me there was already a '''List''' page of all these episodes. [[User:MarkBul|MarkBul]] 17:39, 28 September 2007 (UTC)