Talk:Criticism of Windows Vista: Difference between revisions

This article was nominated for deletion on November 5, 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Microsoft Windows: Computing B‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Microsoft Windows, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Microsoft Windows on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Microsoft WindowsWikipedia:WikiProject Microsoft WindowsTemplate:WikiProject Microsoft WindowsMicrosoft Windows articles B This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Computing.

Template:LOCErequest

This subarticle is kept separate from the main article, Windows Vista, due to size or style considerations.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Archives

July 10, 2007 December 31, 2007

Should this article be about what the initial problems/criticisms are of the software, or should they be edited to only contain current problems/criticisms? Two things are very evident throughout this article: (1) Some of the issues are regarding pre-release/beta/demo copies, which are not valid for the final release; and (2) issues such as software compatibility are working themselves as software vendors update their software to run on Vista... Which brings me to another observation: should this article pertain to Vista specific problems/criticisms, and therefore be sanitized of all general and common problems with major software releases? Some of the issues brought-up here are valid problems for users, however they are no specific to this release of Vista, but rather are common problems throughout any major software release, and were probably similar pleadings of Windows 2000 users about XP -- however many of those issues are no longer "issues" anymore. Same would be true of Apple OS 9 to X. Your thoughts? My vote would be to clean this up to only include current, relevant, Vista specific issues. (In the absence of a good dialogue here, I will begin this sort of cleanup later this week). Tiggerjay 18:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think any significant problem that has now been corrected should still be noted, but marked now as resolved. Perhaps a 'previous problems' section? Even though some problems are common to other major software releases, they are still relevant here. I'll add some more thoughts shortly. peterl 20:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone would disagree that problems which existed only in alpha, beta, or RC versions, which were not present in the final RTM code, have no place in criticism articles. I don't wish to over-generalise, but all pre-release software has issues; that's why it's not released yet. The corollary to that is that problems present in the RTM code that were later fixed (e.g. in the upcoming SP1) do still deserve a place in the article, albeit, as Peterl says, with an explanation that the problem has n resolved. Regarding problems which aren't specific to Vista: I agree that it seem a little silly for problems which exist in more than one version of Windows to be featured in an article about criticism of Windows Vista, but I see no real alternative. A [Criticism of Microsoft Windows] article is not the right solution: There are very few problems that have existed right through from Windows 1.0 to Vista, so what it would effectively be is an article about any problems that have existed in more than one Windows version, which just wouldn't work as a useful reference source. The only sensible solution is to put all criticism of Windows X in the article about Criticism of Windows X, even if that criticism could apply to Windows W as well. -- simxp (talk) 14:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely agree, bugs in pre-release version should not be mentioned. But those in released versions should be here, for historical interest if nothing. (I read somewhere wikipedia is a great means as a time capsule and I absolutely agree with that philosophy :D ) --soum ^talk 14:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let me first summarized that there is a general agreement that:

1. Pre-RTM should be removed;
2. RTM issues which have been resolved should be kept and marked as such and/or placed in a separate section;
3. There are some non-Vists specific issues which need to handled differently then those which are Vista specific.

As such, it would appear that the next place to take this thread would be to discuss the options of how to handle the non-Vista specific issues. Notwithstanding Simxp, I believe the non-Vista issues can further be grouped into two categories -- Windows and software-in-general.

Many of the issues I have been addressing with Vista happen to be fairly common to just about any major OS release, and even many application releases -- again, when they are a major rework of code. I see many parallels between XP -> Vista as there were with OS 9 -> X. Some examples would be very strict new hardware requirements, software incompatibility (such as needing to upgrade your applications so they run properly on the OS, etc). These issues are not isolated to Microsoft Windows alone. Additional items which is common to just about every major software release is a lack of featured which were promised during development or may even had been in pre-release code and was removed from RTM. Again, these issues are common treads through most major software releases. Many of these issues were very similar to issues brought up for Windows XP initial release. The interest point is that very, very few of those issues were actually fixed by Microsoft, but we all are using it very strong today. Why? Because when XP was first released, many computers were shipping with less than 128MB of memory, so upgrading was difficult. However, shortly thereafter, all systems with Windows ship with at least 256, and more often 512. In a year, the standard memory component of desktop systems will be 1 GB -- because of Vista, in-part-perhaps, but more likely because prices continue to drop, and Moore's Law continues to be at play.

Perhaps to address this non-vendor specific problem, we could: (1) create a new section in which all of these types of issues would be placed in, and perhaps condensed; or (2) create a new article for these types of issues, and the place a summary section on how these problems play out in Vista...

I'm not trying to be difficult to too much of a discussion based for this, however I am finding that due to media attention and articles similar to this, poeple have the belief that Vista is very "buggy" when in fact, it is more peripheral issues, such as those mentioned. However ALL of these issues (Vista specific or not) are factors in choosing to use Vista or not. Me? I have Vista on my laptop for trials, but XP on all my other machines. Your thoughts? Tiggerjay 06:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think separation into MS and non MS products is necessary. Because our focus should be on how buggy Vista is not how buggy MS products are or how buggy non-MS products are. That said, we can create a different section for vulnerabilities, and present Vista's share with refutes when bugs in others are attributed to Vista.

For other criticisms, like hardware requirements and software incompat we can present an aggregate picture of the 2000/XP and OS 9/OS X transitions. But we cannot make any generalizations, like "Many of the issues I have been addressing with Vista happen to be fairly common to just about any major OS release, and even many application releases -- again, when they are a major rework of code"; that would be OR. --soum ^talk 08:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/26/technology/goog.reut/index.htm?postversion=2007062611 "Judge to Google: take Vista issues to Justice Statement from district judge made after No. 1 search engine questions antitrust compliance of Microsoft's Vista" Mathiastck 11:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is it necessary to demand citations for all points stated by Paul Smith in response to Peter Gutmann's criticism (see section Digital Rights Management -> Reaction)? In my opinion, it's Paul Smith's job to do that, Wikipedia should only provide the source of his statement (plus its main arguments). - Jack's Revenge 12:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. Some POV-pusher has been reinserting the tags over the past few months. Paul Cyr 21:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I attempted to add a ref link to a discussion on the 2cpu forum about the network performance issues, but the link came back as black listed. What can be done about this? Below is the ref (remove dash from between 2 and cpu)

<ref>cite web | url=http://forums.2-cpu.com/showthread.php?t=83112 | title=Interesting thing about slow vista network speed }}</ref>

Online forums are not a suitable source for Wikipedia. That's why it's blacklisted. -/- Warren 05:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I haven't caught up on all the history of the performance section, but why was the link to Tom's Hardware removed? For this topic it would be as relevant and solid as any. Please explain? peterl 22:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the comment on Vista's usage of RAM because 1) I was never presented by the sources as a criticism. 2) Since when did people get the idea that a high usage of available RAM was a bad thing? It's not like the system slows down when you go from using 40% of your RAM to 80%. Vista was intentionally designed this way to help load programs and system files faster. When a program needs the RAM, Vista stops using it.

As for the OS X removal, that was done as a result of the discussion on Talk:Windows Vista. Anyone is free to object, but since the consensus has been made you need to discuss the issue before adding it back in. Paul Cyr 13:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As Paul Cyr notes in the previous section, the Criticism section in the Vista article is a summary of this article, and is supposed to be kept synchronised with it. I've just had a quick look over the two, and the biggest violation is UAC; which does have a section in the Vista article, but doesn't have one in this article, of which it is supposed to be a summary. IIRC, the paragraph existed once, but was gradually whittled away, and eventually removed altogether (although it's still mentioned in the introduction section). On the Vista page, on the other hand, they seem to have arrived at a consensus wording. So if so-one has any objections, I'll copy and paste the paragraph from that page to this one, possibly as a subsection of the Security section. -- simxp (talk) 14:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy with that. I think the sections in this article do need a bit of work; UAC criticism is really a Usability issue. Other sections don't seem to flow very well. peterl 07:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Copied over. You're right, it's not very well organised. And on re-reading the paragraph I've just copied over I'd be much happier if the sentence "[UAC] is still triggered by a number of third party programs not properly designed for Windows Vista" had a citation. I've Googled for a bit but I can't find a good one. -- simxp (talk) 12:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've re-instated the removed links to McAffee criticism of security. Although the statements were made pre-RTM, they are still relevant and there haven't been any substantial changes in RTM. It's likely to change in SP1, but as of now the McAffee comments are still relevant. peterl 11:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be appropriate to include some information about common criticisms of the interface? Nearly every person that I have talked to having issues about Windows Vista takes issue with either the interface or software compatibility.

The consensus (at least among students at my college) is that Windows Vista and the Office 2007 package are patronizing and nearly impossible to use for people even remotely computer-literate.128.187.0.164 22:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I can really see how things like the improved Office keyboard accelerator model and new Windows powershell scripting capabilities are 'patronizing' and not for use by 'people even remotely computer-literate'... Seriously, though; I'm afraid students at your college do not qualify as Reliable Sources. -- simxp (talk) 13:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why has user User:Tiggerjay removed this statement twice calling it vandalism ?

"Market survey has shown that there is a huge gap in the Windows Vista take-up when it comes to business adoption, which is voluntary, versus the home adoption, which is mandated exclusively by the PC maker.^[1]"

09:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Firstly the statement is wrong. How can you assert that "business adoption in mandatory" and "home adoption is mandated exclusively by the PC maker". Thats OR. Secondly, is there any evidence that the survey quoted is actually reliable enough? --soum ^talk 09:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I imported the paragraph on SPP from the main Vista article back to here (that section had been expanded upon, this one trimmed). For one thing, the criticism section in that article is supposed to be a WP:SUMMARY of this article, not the other way round! (Accordingly, I have just shortened the para in the main Vista article slightly). For another, the editor who trimmed the para in this article removed some of the sources (and the corresponding text) on the grounds that it was technically from a blog: indeed it is, but when the author of that blog is a former PC World editor who has published a large number of books on Windows in general and Vista specifically, it is not exactly unreliable as a secondary source. Since the original paragraph was probably too long, though, I cut down the MS white paper quote and integrated it more into the text, as I did for the section in the main Vista article. -- simxp (talk) 21:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, as I was the one who cut it down. I could/should have looked into the main Vista article to summary it as well. The primary reasons for my edits were that the section appeared to bloated and wordy, redundant. But we can leave it as-is if everyone things the longer version provides a better understanding of SPP. Although to me, personally, my POV is that if you are not legally using the software then there is nothing wrong with the publisher timebombing the software to reduce functionality, but I guess some people are bothered by it... hmmm. Tiggerjay 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully, integrating the whitepaper text into the paragraph rather than putting it in a quotation block has alleviated some of the bloat you criticise. Re your last sentence: you implicitly assumes that the only people who will be affected by the timebombing are those who are using the software illegally. The trouble is, this has several times been shown to be false. See citations 68, 69, and 70. -- simxp (talk) 23:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"There are several security experts who show concerns about the new security features implemented in Windows Vista" - Who are we to claim "several"? How can we show it is "not" limited to the instances given. As such, this is weasel wording and not acceptible. As for BadVista, I already said, read the archives. We work by consensus. Respect that. Its an official policy, violations are not tolerated. Hang around here for sometime and understand the current status before digging into controversial articles. The article has been under immense scrutiny and the current state is the result of that. Finally, crying that we are on MS payroll is not going to help, especially when you yourself are POV-pushing. We have been accused of it far too frequently. :P --soum ^talk 09:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What are you arguing about? Did you read? Symantec, McAfee and a few more are of course security experts, and they did show concerns about the security about Windows Vista, as stated in the article. If you spend some time to search, you can also find more security experts who are complaining about the new security features in Windows Vista. There are more negatives about the new security features in Windows Vista and is available in many articles on the net. Google is your friend.

After all the whole passage is a lot of fragment and the article is poorly written. It is no difference to some copy and paste work (after some content filtering of course!) without any organization, making it very messy and hard to read. They should learn how to write an article properly. You can easily find a better article than this mess elsewhere.

I tried to see if I can rewrite the article so it makes some senses. Start your article with an introduction (abstract) so as to give a concise overview. Improve the structure and flow of arguments. Of course I get stopped out before I can finish it, and be warned that you will be banned soon if you continue. It is how it works as a collaborative editing nature of Wikipedia - someone who can revert without explanation and edit without discussion, but others must get approval from him before they can edit. The draconian style is really how Wikipedia works.

Perhaps one of the worst thing in the article is that soum insisted the quoting style above must be perceived. If all quotes needed to be done in this way, he should quote all. However soum selectively quote two only in this way. First this makes the page unnecessarily bloated. Second, why do you want to stick out two quotes only? Third, by sticking out two only, this can draw readers' attention, and pretend that it is an authoritative or more trustworthy statement (so readers may discard or pay less attentions to other statements).

Sorry I searched but I couldn't see where is the consensus you mentioned. A search in archives and that is the only discussion topic I saw - 10 BadVista.org. Unfortunately there is only one person posting and he said:

Odd Master 10:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from adding BadVista.org links or criticisms. This situation has played out a long time back. See the discussion archives for Windows Vista articles. Most claims there are exaggerated and are not substantiated beyond a point. Heck, many have even been downright refuted. Its plain and simple yellow journalism. By consensus, it is not considered a source reliable enough to be quoted in the article. Plus, nothing is there that has not already been covered. Repeating them again is not neutral. Please respect policy, otherwise, I am sorry to say this, it will lead you to being blocked from editing here. --soum ^talk 09:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who are you to say which source is reliable? Your act of filtering statements based on your own liking is against WP:NPOV. Also it appears Wikipedian likes to threaten a member as a way to welcome someone who tries to contribute. Perhaps you have an interest in Microsoft business. Bye! Odd Master 09:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Engage in discussion first, before making unilateral changes to the article. --soum ^talk 09:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no rule in Wikipedia to say we have to discuss first before we can edit the article. Wikipedia says Be bold when editing the page. Yours is against this rule. Besides I find that you also remove changes or do changes without discussing first. This is a double standard. I found no official source in Wikipeida which says BadVista.org has been officially blacklisted or flagged as bad source. Judging on your own liking is against WP:NPOV. Odd Master 09:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to move this part of discussion on the right page.

By the way I think some of the claims made by BadVista.org may not be accurate but this is not the ground for us to filter the claims to our liking. As long as there is a third-party source which contains such claims. If you google 'Vista', it comes up in the first page so we should include some of their claims on the article. Please feel free to point to other sites or articles which say otherwise.

We do not report just for reporting's sake. We make sure the claims are valid, are corroborated from others and are not just an uninformed decision. Read through the archives, this situation has played out long back. --soum ^talk 09:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another Policy

(moved from personal talk page)

There is also another policy here: its called consensus, which holds precedence over being bold (the latter of which is a guideline, and thus not canonical). Consensus for this article is to not refer to badvista, and discuss any such changes before making it live (I already said, the discussions in this effect can be found in talk pages).

Btw, I am preserving the original state of the article, nor "making them without discussion". Propose your concerns, and let others comment. This is how such articles are handled. Each party has to accept the majority decision.

Btw, you are not supposed to edit archive pages. Comments should go to the talk page. And removing comments from user talk pages without a pointer to where it is also frowned on. Btw, sorry for coming of as bitey, that wasn't my intention.

I haven't removed any comment from this page. If I don't edit the page, how can I add new comments? Odd Master 12:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest again, you propose the changes in the talk page, and let others respond. My comments are already there. The ball now lies with the community, and not either you or me. --soum ^talk 09:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, didn't notice you already did. --soum ^talk 09:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I find it very confusing as I read more.

soum keep saying we need to propose changes in the talk page before we can edit it. However first I saw you don't discuss before you revert changes. Second I found that you didn't discuss every time before you edit pages or add new contents by viewing your own edit history, so it appears you are asking someone to follow some "rules" which you don't follow either. You are setting a bad example since you are an admin. After all no page saying we have to discuss pages before we can edit. Please point it out if I'm wrong since I have no time reading all minor policies and rules in Wikipeida.

If soum is right about what it says, I could say Wikipedia gives you a false impression that anyone can contribute the article freely, as long as you are acting in good faith. Try to read WP:bold or Wikipedia does not have firm rules. The reality clearly tells you the other way round.

Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules states that it is an official policy. It reads:

Then could anyone try me why I received a serious warning from soum said you must follow this and that or you will be banned? I don't think I have violated any major policy or I am deserved to be banned (eg vandalism). Is it enough to issue a ban simply because you don't know "BadVista.org is a bad source as the admin claims"

This further proves the so-called official policy above is non-existent. From the sound of it, the admin has been closing all room for argument once it is decided. It doesn't really allow you to ignore a rule in reality, no matter how sound you are. Let's say I think we should present all popular claims (BadVista.org is one of them) because we shouldn't filter on behalf of the readers. We should present both sides of the arguments and let the readers should judge by themselves. Of course I can't choose to ignore even if the official policy grant me to do so. Admin is always above the policy.

On 14 Oct 2007, the page was locked up because "I made some bad edit" according to what soum said. I assume a lock up is not a decision made so lightly. As a matter of fact, I couldn't edit it anymore.

In reality the admin essentially soum controlled everything. Although there are official policies in place, I seriously doubt whether admins will obey it. As a matter of fact, he once reverted all my contributions. Of course he offered no reasons when he first did it, clearly against the revert policy which said you should explain to the contributor before you revert.

I don't think the admin is treating me as if I am acting in good faith. When I first received the message from the admin, his word is already very harsh, treating me as if a vandal. He said you are not allowed do this and that. Otherwise you will be blocked from editing here. Is this the standard way for someone to welcome a new contributor? I can't see how he was assuming good faith on me if he chose to warn you immediately for the very first time.

If you will be threatened to be banned from editing by an admin, why can you not hesitate to edit before you edit. Of course we are told it is not required to discuss every time you wish to make changes. But someone who have full power told you otherwise. That's what WP:BOLD actually means in reality - "Don't edit it simply because you see something that can be improved. Only do it when you are very certain that you are permitted to do from an admin"

Wikipedia is advertised as a way that everyone is equal. Everyone is free to edit the page based on good faith. Be bold when editing. Ignore rule if you do think they stop you from improving Wikipedia.

The reality is clearly the reverse. "Wikipedia does not have firm rules" is just a joke. Essentially admin control everything. They can and do control the articles in Wikipedia. Instead of posting both side of arguments, they decide to filter the contents or sources they don't like and so on.

No Wikipedia does not have firm rules. This is done on purpose, because of the lack of firm rules Wikipedia admins may arbitrarily delete whatever they dislike and arbitrarily protect anything they like. Wikipedia is indeed the encyclopedia anyone can edit... anyone can edit it but they better hope they don't offend the political sensibilities of a biased Wikipedia administrator. --Rotten 06:58, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This real lesson teaches me what Wikipedia really is. The articles are biased towards the admin liking. They will control what they want to view. Anyone who doesn't take a large bunch of salt when reading any article at Wikipedia is an idiot.

I'm glad I can see the dark side of Wikipedia early so I don't waste tons of my free time to help. It is high time to leave and contribute somewhere else. Bye! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odd Master (talk • contribs)

I really didn't read all that as I don't have a lot of free time. Let me just say that I agree with Soum. This has already been discussed and if you have something new to add then discuss it before adding rejected content back in. Wikipedia rules can be contradictory and confusing, but that's because many of them are not set in stone. You should take the value of the rules and guidelines to heart. In this case, if a bunch of contributors are disagreeing with you unilaterally adding rejected content back, you should probably talk with them first and see if you can reach consensus. Paul Cyr 07:35, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the following section because it does not actually cite any criticism of volume license activation. It is also wrong (i.e. it should say Multiple Activation Keys and Key Management Service).

Unlike previous versions of Windows, organizations using Vista with a Volume License Agreement are now required to use use a Windows Activation method similar to the one used in consumer editions. Specifically Multiple Action Keys (a limited number of installs per key) or Key Management Server (25 or more computers) must be used to activate Vista in an enterprise. ^[2]

My guess is that the only people criticising volume license activation are software pirates but it would be nice if someone could prove it either way.--59.167.108.178 13:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually it's a real pain for enterprises with high security, separate test and production (or otherwise partitioned networks), as you now have to install a KMS on every isolated segment. Socrates2008 (Talk) 08:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed these two sections simply because they do not actually have an criticisms. The Market Reaction section doesn't present any, and the EU section's only source talks about MS's problems with getting specific criticisms from the EU. Neither have a notable person or organization criticising something in Vista. Paul Cyr 07:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I read that Vista had a much improved Bluetooth Stack (compared to the one in Windows XP) in the beta, but it was pulled before release and the current one used is very much the same as the one found in Windows XP. Is this true? And if so, would it be too much to hope for if the updated Bluetooth Stack would be introduced in SP1? I dont run Vista myself so I cannot test it. Of what I understand, the Bluetooth stack cant handle bluetooth headsets, game controllers and some other devices. This is the article where I read about the Vista Bluetooth Stack: http://www.theunwired.net/?itemid=3804 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.115.96.242 (talk) 10:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the security section near the top as it seemed to be not neutral, as it's critisms are lodged by companies that make a profit if the criticisms are true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.211.200.113 (talk) 04:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone make a section on lack of drivers and support of many peripherals (namely printers and scanners) for Vista? Althepal (talk) 05:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is that a criticism of Vista? What in Vista could be changed in order to make manufactures write drivers? Paul Cyr (talk) 05:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I will be reverting back to my original edits to clean up the intro section to simplify the overview of the article. It appears that the current intro launches into major points, complete with references - which I believe belong in the body of the article, not the into. Your thoughts? Tiggerjay (talk) 06:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the second sentence of the intro just reiterates what the first one has already stated. David13579 (talk) 16:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know that the Gutmann content has been greatly discussed in the past, however since a majority of that discussion the article itself has changed significantly. As such, this section is entirely too long relative to the rest of the article. It should undergo some significant reduction to bring it in-line with the rest of the article, especially considering the reactions which question his credibility or authority on the subject. Your thoughts? I'll take a quick look now to see if I can simplify, but it may be something I'll have to work on later -- I simply wanted to raise the issue up the flagpole now, and head off any flack from the other editors. :) Tiggerjay (talk) 05:42, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored it. Time doesn't change the fact that the criticism was made and got a lot of attention. -/- Warren 16:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first tests of Vista SP1 vs. XP SP3 beta show huge advantage for XP. I think this should be mentioned in the article, because as the article reads now, it seems like Microsoft has solved the problems with SP1. [1] The fact that Vista is heavily outperformed by XP is a major criticism and it should be updated whenever new tests (and more importantly new updates) come out. It doesn't even matter that XP is getting a new service pack, it's a new system vs. its predecessor. If Vista can't catch up, this will always be a criticism and with every month, every test and every service pack it's more severe. Both positive and negative events regarding the Vista-XP performance comparison should be updated whenever they happen. --JTrdi (talk) 15:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see why this section has been moved here from the main Windows Vista page. Yes, it does have a critical result but the section itself should be in the main page. It's not criticism. Can we have some discussion about this please? peterl (talk) 09:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There should have been a dicussion before the move. Regardless of where the consensus puts it, its POV needs to be addressed (perhaps the POV was the catalyst for the move?) Socrates2008 (Talk) 10:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It's been moved around twice now. How do we go about getting a consensus? I'm happy to do some NPOV editing as well. peterl (talk) 20:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If it can get a major NPOV editing overhaul it might be suitable to be put back in the main article. But as it stands now it's, quite frankly, obviously just a bunch of biased Vista bashing, and deserves to be placed in the criticism section. Exodite (talk) 12:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If it is biased, then it should be fixed or deleted, not moved to an article about the position towards which the information is biased. In other words, the bias towards criticism doesn't make it belong in the criticism section. - Josh (talk | contribs) 21:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then if someone fixes it and gives it a NPOV overhaul, it can be moved back. Until then, moving it here is better than deleting it. Exodite (talk) 03:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

this is a minor thing and I might be wrong, but doesn't quake 4 use opengl instead of 'DirectX 9 or older', as mentioned in software compatability > games? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.160.239.162 (talk) 03:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe so as well. Quake 4 states that an OpenGL compatible graphics card is required. No mention of DirectX is made. Additionally, Quake runs on Linux, although it could support DirectX as well. Cyrus Jones (talk) 01:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Vista sufferers, and Vista upgraders to XP,
I propose the inclusion of a table with the retail prices of the individual Vista products globally. This way we can easily compare the prices, and see how much we must shell out for an "upgrade" to WV.
George Adam Horváth (talk) 15:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is abundently clear that their is a POV problem with this article. I dont have the time to re-write the article, but perhaps the more neutral editors can try and keep an eye on this article.

For instnace, I offer "Adam horvath"'s contribution above...

Wikipedia is not a junior-school haxor club. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wageslave (talk • contribs) 17:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, my contribution to the article was in an appropriate style, although you may find that the POV of my comment above is somewhat biased. That's probably because I've used vista. In any case, discussion pages are supposed to be the colloquial places where people can recommend things in a more personal way, in a style that is different from an encyclopaedia article. I'm sure you, dear unsigned contributor, also agree with this. George Adam Horváth (talk) 10:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about addressing the Windows 2008 Workstation issue in the article? Vista done right...--Kozuch (talk) 21:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since this issue is not Vista specific, it should be removed. Especially if it has been like this since Windows was introduced.

It's not Vista-specific. See kb899855 Socrates2008 (Talk) 14:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The only one of the three citations in the paragraph that actually has any criticism in it is from *2001*, and its main complaint is that Microsoft OSes "don't follow the POSIX standard" -- nonwithstanding that POSIX defines a standard for Unix-like OSes... -- simxp (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right then I'll remove it..if anyone has any objections, revert. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.128.147.138 (talk) 20:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why are only articles that promote a certain point of view being added and not articles that refute them? That seems like a gross violation of NPOV to me. --soum ^talk 12:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. There's no point in having these links. If people have something to say, it should be said by adding verifiable material from reliable sources to the article. I'm going to remove them. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 12:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Games

"Vista has implemented DirectX 10, and Vista also has DirectX 9.0L for backward compatibility.[52] In Paul Thurrott's review of Vista[53], he notes that the Windows XP-compatible games he tested worked fine in Vista, with the exception of two games published by id Software: Doom 3 and Quake 4. Thurrott suggests that the problems might be related to the graphics driver, as "Microsoft says [these titles] should run fine in Vista.""

It says right there, the problems might be related to the drives, thus making this critisism pointless. Dvferret (talk) 20:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. Wageslave (talk) 22:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that this article has become a bit of a dumping ground to create a hit-piece. I appreciate it is a "criticism" article, but shouldnt it be more Neutral to have a "Reception" article with a more netural-POV? Wageslave (talk) 22:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's true. It's fun to hate Microsoft, which is why there's an entire category dedicated to anti-MS hit pieces. Criticism sections are discouraged - I imagine entire criticism articles doubly so. I'm in favor of your suggestion. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 22:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. The reason for the existance of a Criticism article is entirely and solely as a daughter article of the Windows Vista article; specifically, the Criticism section. That is the only reason that an article which only puts forward 'one side of the argument' is allowed: because, formally, it's just the full version of one section of the parent article, and so the POV is balanced by the other sections of the parent article. From the other side, articles such as Features new to Windows Vista don't violate the anti-marketing-brochure guidelines for exactly the same reason. Incidentally, someone may well someday create a "Reception of Windows Vista" article, because there is also a Reception section in the Windows Vista article, which may get long enough to be partially split off into its own daughter article. But that wouldn't this article unless the "Reception" and "Criticism" sections in the parent article were to be merged. Renaming this article to "Reception" and balancing the POV would certainly not improve anything: people would just expect it to be an expansion of the Reception section and be annoyed when they discover it isn't. -- simxp (talk) 22:42, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But, based on this policy it is strongly discouraged,

"The main argument for this is that they are often a troll magnet"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CRITICISM#Criticism_in_a_.22Criticism.22_section

I suggest we endevour to integrate this section into the rest of the article where appropriate. This article should be dismantled, integrated into the other articles instead of being a "hit piece" as it currently reads.

Wageslave (talk) 01:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, Wikipedia:Criticism is not a policy document -- it's an essay. We aren't bound to make editing decisions based on it. Wikipedia:Summary style article layout, however, is a manual of style guideline, and should be followed.

Second, your suggestion is hardly new -- I've been hearing it for more than two years, and nobody, not a single person has been able to come up with a way to do it. The problem is that you can't integrate the criticism we have into the rest of the article, because most of the things that are being criticised aren't covered elsewhere in the article. Where would we put content about digital rights management or file copy operations in the main text of the article? Under "new features"? The fact that Vista has a new file copy engine is waaayyy down on the list of things that we need to cover. Likewise with the new DRM stuff, because it doesn't actually affect the vast majority of people in any appreciable fashion that is new to Windows Vista (compared with XP), so it doesn't get much airtime in the article. UAC is the only exception here, and if that were moved inline with the rest of the article, we'd end up with a situation where some of the criticism is inline, and some of it is in its own section, thus making it more difficult for readers to get a quick summation of the major points of controversy and criticism about Vista (which, let's face it, is a topic of interest to our readers, given how many people dislike it). -/- Warren 01:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Where would we put content about digital rights management"

How about in a section called Digital Rights Managment in the Vista Article. It would cover, in a neutral manner, the virtues and drawbacks of DRM, and the reception and criticism of it?

Wageslave (talk) 16:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with that idea!Dvferret (talk) 19:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps including some mention in the topic on digital rights managment would be best yet.

Well something needs to be done with the DRM part. I dont see the point in having those two arguments with it.Dvferret (talk) 00:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What does [Criticism_of_Windows_Vista#Software_bloat] serve other than to have a sub-heading of "Software bloat".

Concerns have been expressed that Windows may be experiencing software bloat. Speaking in 2007 at the University of Illinois, Microsoft "Distinguished Engineer" Eric Traut said, "A lot of people think of Windows as this large, bloated operating system, and that's maybe a fair characterization, I have to admit." He went on to say that, "at its core, the kernel, and the components that make up the very core of the operating system, is actually pretty streamlined." Former PC World editor Ed Bott has expressed skepticism about the claims of bloat, noting that almost every single operating system that Microsoft has ever sold had been criticized as "bloated" when they first came out; even those now regarded as the exact opposite, such as MS-DOS.[47]

Why is that paragraph even present? Its just a hit-paragraph.

Wageslave (talk) 17:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ive been wondering about it also. Its just as bloated as OSX is.Dvferret (talk) 00:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that we delete this section as well. I dont believe it is needed. I believe that once again it IS the developer's fault for NOT updating the software for the new operating system.Dvferret (talk) 00:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I concur, at least it shuld be removed from its own section and be integrated into the article above. Also, the very first line of the Software compatibility needs to be made more neutral. Go to it. Wageslave (talk) 01:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's gone. If someone disagree's, discuss it here before trying to add it back. Thanks. Dvferret (talk) 16:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The pricing section needs to be rewritten to be more neutral sounding. Right now it is very biased, liked with using the word "striking". Dvferret (talk) 16:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]