Talk:The Beatles (terrorist cell): Difference between revisions

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Beatles (terrorist cell) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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"Execution" implies legality while "murder" implies illegality. Either word can be used in quotation but when using Wikipedia's voice neutral wording such as killing should be used. Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:42, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have added {{cleanup}} tag to this article. Some of the sentences read as short subjective statements, some as though they are the memoirs of associates of the cell, and others are simply cretinous.

Example: "The Beatles spoke to each other in English, and struggled with Arabic.[2] They always kept their faces hidden.[16]"

How on Earth would anyone know such a thing? "Struggled with Arabic" - according to who? And they may well always appear masked during broadcasts of their heinous acts, but that is a ridiculously generalised statement to have put in a Wikipedia article. It is imbecilic in fact. 86.153.26.237 (talk) 19:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This falls within the normal range of WP:SOFIXIT. There is little point in complaining about things that you do not intend to fix yourself. The article could do with some tweaking here and there.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What Ian said. There is not the level of cleanup called for that warrants application of the tag. As to "how would anyone know such a thing" -- the curious reader will read the refs. Which answer questions such as those, for readers who want even more info. Much of what we know of them is, obviously, from what former hostages have said. Epeefleche (talk) 20:13, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should say how we know they spoke english and struggled with Arabic. Often times in wikipedia things are not obvious and the question is "according to who"? The daily mail source doesn't make sense tho. Have any hostages been released? No so how did they talk to hostages that supposedly said these things. Since dailymail is a tabloid we might want to remove this or change the language so it doesn't sound so sure. Popish Plot (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Does this need a military unit infobox? Not really a military unit and the infobox looks like mst of the information has been forced to fit. Bromley86 (talk) 09:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Infoboxes are never "needed". The question, if there is one, is whether this infobox should be deleted. The infobox here appears to me to convey just the sort of summary infobox information that we appreciate infoboxes providing. It summarizes key features of the page's subject. --Epeefleche (talk) 09:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is a line "George uses the nom-de-guerre of "Abu Muhareb", which means "Fighter" in Arabic.". This line has three citations, but the translation is clearly technically inaccurate. "Muhareb" by itself means "fighter", but "Abu Muhareb" means "Father of a fighter" ("Abu _____" being a common naming style). I would have changed this myself, but I was hesitating because of the three citations. I am 100% sure of my claim though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:6:8180:C19:0:0:0:3AB6 (talk) 16:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It has been proposed in this section that The Beatles (terrorist cell) be renamed and moved to ISIL militants nicknamed the Beatles. A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

The Beatles (terrorist cell) → ISIL militants nicknamed the Beatles – I don't think that we can name them "The Beatles" in Wikipedia's voice either with or without disambiguation. The reaction of Ringo Starr to the naming included, "It's bullshit. They're against everything we stood for". Usage of this designation was first propagated in the British press who are, I think, known for their ability to go with any spin to get a catchy title, content or photo regardless of any ethical consideration. Astoundingly, within this type of context, Wikipedia persists in talking about "reliable sources". As far as I know the four militants concerned have not specifically been identified as being a "cell". All we know is that they were four of the militants that were used in direct connection with non-local prisoners. There is no evidence that I know of to suggest that they call themselves "the Beatles" and, even if they do have a name, there is no evidence that this is it. This is just an offensive reference first adopted by some of the prisoners probably to help then try to sanitise their greatly stressful situation and then used, I think, disproportionately by sensation seeking sources. These people are not "The Beatles". I think that something like the WP:NATURAL disambiguation that I have suggested should be used. GregKaye 11:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Don't see any real benefit to this. This is what the hostages called them, so this is what they're called. Of course, they probably have their own name for themselves, but as no one outside of ISIL will know it, it fails WP:COMMONNAME. I'd be happy for the terrorist cell part to be changed, but you've failed to supply a suggestion. Something like ISIL militants would work and be more neutral (terrorist should normally be avoided, although I accept that the use of beheadings is a pretty terroristic act). It'd address your concerns about their possible lack of cell-like nature. Bromley86 (talk) 19:22, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Bromley made the points, cogently, that I was about to leave. Except for his last point -- terrorist is fine to use, where as here the RSs use it. Epeefleche (talk) 21:12, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose the main group's article is named Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and the proposed name is not concordant with that. The Beatles (Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant) would work if "terrorist cell" is considered poor disambiguation. -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 03:21, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bromley86, Epeefleche, 70.51.200.101, Surely this just goes to show how ridiculously unfair the current titling is. Let's pose the issue as an academic question. The Beatles and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant - compare and contrast. Its bad enough when "reliable sources" will defame a dead man who cannot defend himself. I cannot see that it is then in Wikipedia's remit to go beyond what sources do and headline "The Beatles" in a terrorist context with no further title reference. See search on (isil OR isis OR daesh OR "islamic state") AND "the beatles". There is no one else that does this. GregKaye 18:41, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No ... the so-far-unanimous opposes show the lack of consensus agreement with your view. We follow the RSs on this, per wp:commonname. And they call this group the Beatles. And they refer to them as terrorists. Sometimes we have individuals who bear the same names, with quite different reputations ... we don't rename the individuals. Epeefleche (talk) 18:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Epeefleche the proposed wording makes fair reference to the the RS wp:commonname designation but with, I think, less offence. Take a look at the articles. My wording is far more representative of the presentations made in RS than the current crass Wikipedia title. GregKaye 19:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I (and all the other respondents so far) disagree. Best. Epeefleche (talk) 19:11, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I support the principle--but what else are we supposed to call them? The only common name we have for them is the one currently on the article. Red Slash 21:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• NOTE there are similar move requests at Talk:Killing of captives by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and Talk:List of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant members -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 04:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• SUPPORT, the proposed title is an accurate description of these militants and yet succinct enough. It also has the advantage of having a natural disambiguation without parenthesis, which is preferable under Wikipedia's guidelines. Khestwol (talk) 05:02, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • It does not match the main Da'esh article's name. -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 02:35, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Ringo's eloquent rejoinder, but also per WP:NATURAL. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:24, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I can't see anything in WP:NATURAL that would support this change. In fact, it seems to go against it: "Do not, however, use . . . made-up names." Sources don't call them "ISIL militants nicknamed the Beatles", they call them The/the Beatles, sometimes in scare quotes, sometimes not. Standard procedure in a case like this would be to, as it currently does, default a search for The Beatles to the band (and, per WP:PRIMARYUSAGE to not add additional bracketed detail). If someone then follows the disam link on that page, they see The Beatles (terrorist cell), which makes it immediately clear whether that link is the one they're looking for. Incidentally, I had previously suggested that the (terrorist cell) part might be changed to something like (ISIL militants). However, I've since seen many uses of the expression terrorist cell by RS in similar situations, e.g.[1][2] So whilst I'm not 100% convinced it's the best fit, terrorist cell is certainly descriptive enough for disam and is used by reliable sources (who frequently have called the members of that "cell" terrorists), although perhaps not in this specific case. The only thing to add to that is that the vast majority of the hits for terrorist cell are tabloid, which might make me think twice about using it here. Bromley86 (talk) 13:00, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Can't move to anything that does not correspond to the main Wikipedia entry, which is Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. The US-centric "ISIL" abbreviation has been rejected for the main entry and therefore cannot be used for these four terrorists. Sympathise with the wish to rename this so-called "Beatles" entry but the proposed solution is unacceptable. XavierItzm (talk) 15:39, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]