Talk:White supremacy: Difference between revisions

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User:The Undertow, you reverted my edit which included sourcing all of your claims of OR. Yahel Guhan 03:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yahel Guhan insists on placing 'racist' in the lead of this article. Incidentally removes racist from the Black supremacy article. User also insists on "You can call it white nationalism, white suprematism, white pride, or anything else. It is all the same, in that it is all the same racist dogma designed to say white people are dominant to black people." So pretty much, I'm questioning the motives here, the clear POV pushing agenda and I want a source review with that last addition. Either all supremacy articles have 'racist' in the lead or none, but no more of this anti-white sentiment shown by a user who adds "Secondly, Black, Mexican, and white nationalism are not the same. Only white nationalism is racist, as it is white supremacy in disguise." I've warned you before that your edits are POV-pushing. Just because you have a source, doesn't necessarily mean it merits inclusion either. Please think long and hard about your behavior and how it does not represent each race with equality. the_undertow ^talk 04:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We are never going to reach a consensus as long as you continue making personal attacks and uncivil ranting about how much you think I am a racist. Your only justification for removing the racist link is you want standardization. Standardization is not necessary when the concepts are different, and sources say they are different. Yahel Guhan 04:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Really. Show me the source that backs up your wonderful neutrality as displayed with this comment: I think the white supremacy is generally more associated with racism than black supremacy, as there are no forms of white supremacy (as far as I am aware) which cannot be termed "racist." Most forms of black supremacy are "racsit," but not all forms are. Many things associated with black supremacy are not in fact racist per se. Is there a source for this? Are you being serious that white supremacy is always racist and that black supremacy is noy in fact 'racist' per se? 'Supremacy' implies racial superiority, no matter how YOU feel about it. An standardization in the lead is a must. We will never reach consensus until you treat all race articles the same. the_undertow ^talk 05:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Supremacy implies racial superiority" So what?. That does not mean it is racist. And standardization is not necessary, unless two topics are the same or similar. Yahel Guhan 05:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Black supremacy and white supremacy are similar. If Wikipedia defines racism as members of one racial group consider themselves intrinsically superior to members of other racial groups then you are deeply going against consensus when you say that racial superiority does not imply racism. But then again, it's really a moot point, considering your comments about race in general. That's why I'm building the Request for comment because anyone who feels it necessary to add the category 'racism' to the Michael Richards article, while removing the same category from The Black Panthers article has a skewed view and cannot remain neutral. You are far too biased to be editing race-related articles, Yahel. the_undertow ^talk 05:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sourced definition in the article; according to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, of the racism article reads:

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

'^[1]

Nothing about supremacy here. That is your original research. Yahel Guhan 05:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I cited our own article, so there is no OR here. In addition, you defined racial discrimination, which is an active principle. Racism, is passive or active. We are defining 'racism,' the word you are trying to add, not 'racial discrimination.' You are not staying on topic. the_undertow ^talk 05:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well "our own article" is OR. Still, this method is WP:SYNTH. Yahel Guhan 06:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Either find consensus to add 'racism' to the lead, or refrain. your behavior at this point, is too questionable. the_undertow ^talk 08:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IIRC, there is a long discussion on Talk:Black supremacy where consensus was reached to include racist in the lead. I agree that there should be a standardization because contrary to what Yahel states, both are racist ideologies. We should be consistent through our articles. Lara❤Love 11:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

July 08

I've removed the word from the lede for several reasons.

• Per Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Terms that are technically accurate but carry an implied viewpoint, we should avoid words like "racist" even if they are technically accurate.
• Per Wikipedia:A simple formulation, we attribute opinions, not assert them.
• Finally, "X is a POV-word^[1]" is normally a major alarm towards neutrality - you don't make something less POV by citing it.

Thanks, Sceptre ^(talk) 22:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

White supremacy, by definition, according to the source is racist. I don't see how it is POV to say so, nor do I see how it "implies" any viewpoint that isn't correct. YahelGuhan (talk) 07:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it's technically accurate, it carries an implied viewpoint. Per NPOV, we cannot definitively state viewpoints as fact. We don't make the page sympathetic to white supremacists by excluding the word "racist", because a reader would easily figure that out by the words "based on the assertion that white people are superior to other racial groups." Sceptre ^(talk) 10:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Implied viewpoint? It does not. "Per NPOV, we cannot definitively state viewpoints as fact." Since when? I see editors do it all the time. (See for example Israel and the apartheid analogy or Evolution) But unlike those issues, this article tells facts. It is not an opinion that white supremacy is a racist ideology, it is a fact. a reader would easily figure that out by the words "based on the assertion that white people are superior to other racial groups." Now there is a new theory. From what I have seen so far, I doubt it. It has been disputed whether that means racism by some, so it is not obvious from that. YahelGuhan (talk) 04:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There appears to be a great deal of Original Research in this article. The entire "history" section, for example is without citations or verifiable sources. The article should read as encyclopedic, though many statements throughout are subjective. Perhaps it should be sourced or reworked. Or perhaps remove the entire section? EyePhoenix (talk) 02:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]