Talk:Prince Charles (disambiguation): Difference between revisions

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a consensus that it is too soon to determine whether the primary topics for these titles have changed. However, it also bears mention that virtually all of this discussion took place during the first week of Charles' reign as king. As Charles' tenure continues, the "too soon" arguments will gradually decline in relevance; consequently, this topic should likely be revisited in the future, to determine what the consensus is once the dust has settled. (non-admin closure) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 20:48, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Prince Charles (disambiguation) → Prince Charles
• Prince William (disambiguation) → Prince William
• Charles, Prince of Wales (disambiguation) → Charles, Prince of Wales

– I was first proposed at technical request; the former Prince Charles has ascended as Charles III after the death of his mother when the initial proposal declined. ApprenticeWiki ^work 03:55, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I think this request should be split in two, and should not be combined, otherwise, it will be a complete mess -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 04:58, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Agreed, this should be a separate request for each proposed change. El Dubs (talk) 10:47, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support the first 2, no opinion on the third - no reason to make the current or recent UK as the absolute basis here. Animal lover |666| 11:07, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment as a nominator, I would have to support the disambiguation pages without any redirects from target pages, since Prince Charles is now Charles III that he's no longer a Prince. See discussion below. ApprenticeWiki ^work 05:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. This is jumping the gun. It's far too soon to determine any changes to WP:COMMONNAME and primary topic based on WP:RS. Bermicourt (talk) 14:38, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose the first and third in particular, per Bermicourt, not too sure about the second, either. In renaming debates elsewhere, we're seeing lots of "but King Charles is clearly the primary topic, look at all the pageviews had had before he was even king!" Which precisely implies they were finding him via "Prince Charles" or similar searches, and frankly even now they're very likely looking for "Prince Charles becomes king" moreso than "King Charles", slightly oxymoronic than it is. So I think this would be actively unhelpful for readers at present, and it's highly crystal-ballish to anticipate how things might appear in the long run. (Consider the phrase "the Prince Regent", and who that conjures up, notwithstanding his later status.) 109.255.211.6 (talk) 17:27, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose (STRONGLY) for now (and oppose the 2nd move even stronger). At this point in time, moving the primary topic benefits very very few people — as the vast majority of people will be looking for the king or his son. You're absolutely jumping the gun here. Let's reevaluate later. Paintspot Infez (talk) 19:09, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - the Charles, Prince of Wales redirect, should be deleted, as he's now King Charles III. GoodDay (talk) 03:11, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The redirect should have been requested at redirects for discussion. ApprenticeWiki ^work 05:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  No, the redirect should be kept per WP:R#KEEP point 4. There are lots of links to Charles, Prince of Wales that need to stay that way to avoid anachronisms. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:15, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support first, oppose other two Charles is no longer a prince, and in this case a vast wealth of sources unanimously and immediately began to call him "Charles III" or "King Charles" (so waiting an arbitrary amount of time to confirm the common name has shifted is pointless). The disambiguation page still opens with a link to his article, for anyone who navigates there searching for the King. So the concise form of the disambiguation page should be selected. William, on the other hand, is still a prince, and if he was the primary topic for "Prince William" before there's no reason to think he isn't still (in fact, more likely, as he was officially known as the Duke of Cambridge prior to being made Prince of Wales). Charles, Prince of Wales is clearly most likely to be a search for Charles III, so also shouldn't move. U-Mos (talk) 06:03, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all three: the current king and the current prince of Wales are very clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPICs and are likely to remain so for a long time. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment you should consider that Prince Charles will be no longer a redirect and thus will be a disambiguation page, with Charles, Prince of Wales (disambiguation) as a disam page to be moved without the "disambiguation" title. ApprenticeWiki ^work 14:14, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, I understand that this would be the case if the move occurs as requested. I maintain that Charles III remains the primary topic for "Prince Charles" and "Charles, Prince of Wales", at least for the time being, and that likewise William, Prince of Wales remains the primary topic for "Prince William". Rosbif73 (talk) 15:14, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    I really don't think so, but "Prince Charles" and "Charles, Prince of Wales" will be a disambiguation page for now as they're no longer a primary topic since Charles III proclaimed as king more than 24 hours ago. "Prince William" will still remain as primary topic for William, Prince of Wales. ApprenticeWiki ^work 21:55, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support first and third one as sources are immediately started referring to Charles as King Charles III. I have no opinion on the second one. cookie monster 755 03:27, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose It is too soon for it not to still be the primary topic. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:08, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  But only Prince William will remain as primary topic targeting link to William, Prince of Wales. Prince Charles is no longer a prince. ApprenticeWiki ^work 03:05, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose all per WP:TOOSOON. Hansen Sebastian^Talk 16:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  No. But "Prince William" will remain as a primary topic for William, Prince of Wales. ApprenticeWiki ^work 03:05, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support first and third (Charles), Oppose second (William) Prince Charles is clearly King Charles now, and virtually everyone knows it - all reliable sources published at this point are calling him King Charles or Charles III, and none are calling him Prince Charles anymore. "Prince Charles" is now a reference to numerous people, so the disambiguation page is the right thing to have as the Prince Charles page. Prince William is still Prince William - Prince William of Wales became Prince William, Duke of Cambridge and then became Prince William, Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge for a day, and has now become William, Prince of Wales. In all instances, he is still Prince William and the most commonly known Prince William. Prince William (disambiguation) → Prince William will be appropriate once he becomes King William V (or whatever regnal name he uses). OCNative (talk) 22:38, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all. No argument or supporting evidence has been provided for why Prince William is no longer the primary topic, and he is still a prince and will be for the foreseeable future. As for the Charles redirects, while technically incorrect, ordinary people are still adjusting to referring to him as a king and not a prince. This is borne out the the pageviews, which shows that views under the Prince of Wales title hasn't gone below the historical 10k views per day. So at least for now, Charles III is overwhelmingly winning the usage prong of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and we should not inconvenience readers by changing these pages. Perhaps later, when people are more familiar with the new name, this can be revisited. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 15:13, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I really don't think that ever happen all targets as primary topic, but the arguments that Prince William will still remain as target page to William, Prince of Wales. I have already supported to move the other two without "disambiguation" title. That is going a FUCKING useless to move Prince Charles (disambiguation) to Prince Charles as a disam page. ApprenticeWiki ^work 00:14, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I apologize, but I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, since you seem to be describing the move you're proposing as "useless". In any case, the issue is not whether or not "(disambiguation)" should be in the title, since it's already well established that if there is no primary topic, there is no need to include it per MOS:DABPAGENAME. The issue is that the primary topic for the terms "Prince Charles" and "Charles, Prince of Wales", is likely to still be the current king, based on the likelihood of users finding him through his former titles. Once the dust has settled, it would be possible to reassess this sometime in the future. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:03, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The primary redirects have not changed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:01, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The only changes are redirects "Prince Charles" and "Charles, Prince of Wales" into disambiguation pages, as "Prince William" will remain a redirect to William, Prince of Wales. There is no dispute issue. ApprenticeWiki ^work 00:19, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Are you opposing your own proposed move for William? And please stop affirming that things "will" happen when in fact they depend on the outcome of this RM. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:34, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes it does. William will remain a Prince as he's the first n line to the British throne after his father, the sovereign, the king. ApprenticeWiki ^work 13:46, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose all based on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:04, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  There is no chance. But #2 will remain as primary redirect to William, Prince of Wales. ApprenticeWiki ^work 00:18, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support 1 and 3, oppose 2. There is no single person called Prince Charles right now, as there is now King Charles. But that is not the case with Prince William. Векочел (talk) 21:22, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no single person called Prince Charles right now, as there is now King Charles. Indeed, but as he was Prince Charles for 73 years and is referenced in almost everything referring to him until the last few days as Prince Charles it makes no sense to change the redirect. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:11, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]