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→‎Death of Ashley Babbitt: better place to discuss
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::Some thoughts and sources with excerpts:
::Some thoughts and sources with excerpts:
* Ashley Babbitt was the only deliberate death on 1/6, only trying a already broken window: "[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/chad-barrett-jones-arrest-ashley-babbitt/2021/01/17/c88eaa38-58e9-11eb-8bcf-3877871c819d_story.html Ky. man accused of smashing window Babbitt tried to breach; N.M. man vowed to return to D.C. — and was caught when he did]"
* Ashley Babbitt was the only deliberate death on 1/6, only trying a already broken window: "[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/chad-barrett-jones-arrest-ashley-babbitt/2021/01/17/c88eaa38-58e9-11eb-8bcf-3877871c819d_story.html Ky. man accused of smashing window Babbitt tried to breach; N.M. man vowed to return to D.C. — and was caught when he did]"
⚫
:I think there is enough material about her death in this article as is warranted. A separate article on her death is unnecessary and something that I will object to. [[User:Walrus Ji|Walrus Ji]] ([[User talk:Walrus Ji|talk]]) 16:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Federal prosecutors have arrested a Kentucky man who they allege was part of a violent crowd that stormed the House Speaker’s Lobby during the breach of the U.S. Capitol, smashing a window with a flagpole moments before Ashli Babbitt was fatally shot, court filings show.
Federal prosecutors have arrested a Kentucky man who they allege was part of a violent crowd that stormed the House Speaker’s Lobby during the breach of the U.S. Capitol, smashing a window with a flagpole moments before Ashli Babbitt was fatally shot, court filings show.
An FBI charging affidavit alleges that Chad Barrett Jones is the man shown in video at Babbitt’s left on Jan. 6, wearing a red-hooded jacket and gray skullcap and striking the lobby door’s glass panels as a mob chanted “Break it down!” and “Let’s f-----g go!”
An FBI charging affidavit alleges that Chad Barrett Jones is the man shown in video at Babbitt’s left on Jan. 6, wearing a red-hooded jacket and gray skullcap and striking the lobby door’s glass panels as a mob chanted “Break it down!” and “Let’s f-----g go!”
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:::Her death is only notable within the scope of this article/event, not separate from it. -- [[User:Somedifferentstuff|Somedifferentstuff]] ([[User talk:Somedifferentstuff|talk]]) 14:16, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
:::Her death is only notable within the scope of this article/event, not separate from it. -- [[User:Somedifferentstuff|Somedifferentstuff]] ([[User talk:Somedifferentstuff|talk]]) 14:16, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
:::She is not notable outside of her death and her death is an inextricable part of this riot. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
:::She is not notable outside of her death and her death is an inextricable part of this riot. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
⚫
:::I think there is enough material about her death in this article as is warranted. A separate article on her death is unnecessary and something that I will object to. [[User:Walrus Ji|Walrus Ji]] ([[User talk:Walrus Ji|talk]]) 16:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

The more appropriate place to discuss this would be at [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 January 10#Ashli Babbitt]], or in the deletion discussion for the article if that is re-opened. Talking about it here isn't going to have much effect. --[[User:RL0919|RL0919]] ([[User talk:RL0919|talk]]) 17:00, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
The more appropriate place to discuss this would be at [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 January 10#Ashli Babbitt]], or in the deletion discussion for the article if that is re-opened. Talking about it here isn't going to have much effect. --[[User:RL0919|RL0919]] ([[User talk:RL0919|talk]]) 17:00, 19 January 2021 (UTC)


Revision as of 17:02, 19 January 2021

    The "coup" & "insurrection" discussion

    Seeing that there are now sources beginning to describe this as a "coup attempt", I wanted to make an organized section discussing the situation. It also seems that some scholars are agreeing that the legislative act was not a coup attempt, but the forceful entry into the capitol was a coup attempt. Below I will make a few sections to organize this discussion.--WMrapids (talk) 09:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Can you explain what is meant by "some scholars are agreeing that the legislative act was not a coup attempt." Which legislative act? The joint session counting votes? RobP (talk) 08:05, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    In the heat of the moment, most newspapers will use emotive and hyperbolic language because their job is to attract readers' attention. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should describe the event as it is described by authors after the event, not in the middle of it. DenverCoder9 (talk) 21:56, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "Coup", "Insurrection", and "Sedition" have specific legal implications. Beyond WP:BLPCRIME, confirmation needs to come from an official source. DenverCoder9 (talk) 23:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The description of events will not become more rational over time. Let's let hyperbole roam freely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.17.25 (talk) 11:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Sources describing as "coup attempt"

    All of the media listed below promote a liberal, left and progressive viewpoints. There is no evidence that protesters were a united organized group that was actually attempting to take over the US Government with, I've read, 13 weapons found? Instead it looks as if it was a mixed group who invaded the building to disrupt the electoral college contest and make some messes. The behavior of some of the DC police is also puzzling. I would avoid hyberole and wait for some official DoD reports. The mainstream media is advocacy based. Here we aim to present different sides in a neutral way regardless of personal viewpoints. If you can't manage that attitude, edit non-political articles only. Lmlmss44 (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    This is a list section only used for sources describing the event as a "coup attempt" or similar (May be expanded and please don't use opinion pieces):

    Generally reliable sources

    Other sources

    -- Removed "coup de force" French-language sources, as the French "coup de force" does not correspond at all to English "coup (d'état)". Alalch Emis (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I was unaware that screaming, breaking windows, looting stores and then leaving fell under the definition of "coup". TheKing'sMongrelSon (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Sources describing as "insurrection"

    This is a list section only used for sources describing the event as a "insurrection" (May be expanded and please don't use opinion pieces):

    Generally reliable sources

    The Insurrection At The Capitol Is A TV Event That Will Live In History RobP (talk) 21:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Trump caused the assault on the Capitol. He must be removed. "Failing that, senior Republicans must restrain the president. The insurrection came just as many top Republicans, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.), were finally denouncing Mr. Trump’s antidemocratic campaign to overturn the election results." RobP (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Others

    Other terms used

    I'm seeing more & more stories on this event refer to it as a "breach". I personally don't think it is the best word to use, but feel with respect to the principle of NPOV this fact needs to be mentioned. -- llywrch (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I have not been seeing more and more such stories. A breach can be done by a single human and is roughly synonymous with trespass. The breaching of the Capitol is a moment in time. That's when the first door was broken down. By my estimation, that's 0.0003% of the totality of what happened. That's the sporadic type of usage of "breach" i'm seeing – in reference to particular moments and situations of that event, not in reference to the event itself. Alalch Emis (talk) 04:24, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Seconding Alalch Emis: Breach is appropriate for articles like List of White House security breaches; a four-hour occupation by armed persons is far more than just a "breach".-Ich (talk) 10:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion

    In the sections above, "coup" is more widely used internationally. On the other hand, it seems that "insurrection" is more prominent in English sources and in use among US politicians. "Storm" does not appear to be more popular than the other two, though it appears frequently in German media.--WMrapids (talk) 09:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Very few not-in-the-moment sources use coup without attempted, because the word coup does imply a success. The word storm doesn't have that implication, a storm is a still a storm whether it's successful or not. Same with a protest, an attack, a demonstration, etc. I think that we should avoid using coup simply because we can't use it without putting a qualifier there, which instantly strays into commentary territory. --Paul ❬talk❭ 10:00, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Support Holding on Changes I appreciate the work that went in to making this list, however, caution should be exercised. Business Insider is currently the subject of an intense discussion at WP:RSN and I question the quality of Uproxx for reporting civil-military relations; many of these are op-eds and editorials that are using the word "coup" as a term of art; and several of these are non-English language sources where the nuance of the word coup does not precisely reflect in English translation. Factually, if it were determined to be a putsch of some type, it would be an autogolpe and not a coup. A coup is an attack against the existing executive power, while an autogolpe is an attack against the existing legislative power. As time progresses, this nuance will be learned and internalized by reporters on beats that normally don't deal with this subject and we may see an evolution in nomenclature. We must chronicle the terms used by RS, however, that does not preclude us from proceeding with deliberation and caution, particularly insofar as current events are concerned. Chetsford (talk) 10:03, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chetsford: Not a survey, but thanks for the info as I agree that we should wait and created this discussion so we can pick apart the sources while we wait. The op-eds included are written by the editorial boards of the said sources, showing that the term they use is what the publication decides best describes the event. "Putsch" is not used often in English and especially not in this circumstance, though it is often synonymous with "coup" when used. Your statement that "[a] coup is an attack against the existing executive power" is simply untrue. An autogolpe or self-coup is a type of coup, so it would still be accurate to describe it as a "coup attempt" without being too specific on what type of coup it may be (which seems like many publications have done by simply calling the event a "coup attempt"). Also, we describe various self-coups on Wikipedia as simply a "coup" or "coup attempt", such as the 1851 French coup d'état, the 1973 Uruguayan coup d'état and the 1970 Lesotho coup d'état. So if the event were to be determined to be a self-coup attempt, then it would be acceptable to name this the 2021 United States coup d'état attempt in accordance with predecessor articles. That is, unless, sources give us a special name for the event.--WMrapids (talk) 10:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "Your statement that "[a] coup is an attack against the existing executive power" is simply untrue." I regret to inform you that's an objectively false statement. As the French term is invoked in English, a coup d'etat is understood to be an attack against the executive power in all literature on the subject while the Spanish term autogolpe is invoked to mean an attack against the legislative authority by the executive. I can't find my copy of Luttwack's Coup d'Etat at the moment, but I'm pretty certain he clarifies it that way (and it is the definitive source on the subject), but there's a breadth of other scholarship on this as well in the academic literature (e.g. [3] or Paul Brooker's Non Democratic Regimes [page 83 in my edition]). "we describe various self-coups on Wikipedia as simply a "coup" or "coup attempt"" Please see WP:WINARS. In any case, this is all neither here nor there since it sounds like we both agree we should wait to implement any changes. Chetsford (talk) 10:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I did some searches just then, most of the articles I just read referred to it as a "riot" or the "protestors storming the capitol building". I'm not seeing a lot of obvious references to coups, and my personal feeling is, a coup would involve some level of sophisticated organistion, this is just the working of a mob. Just my 2c! Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chetsford: The simple definition of a coup is "the removal of an existing government from power" (Wikipedia), "a sudden and great change in the government carried out violently or illegally by the ruling power" (Oxford) or "the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group" (Merriam-Webster), all meaning that it is the removal or change of a government, which generally can constitute multiple branches, not only the executive. However, it seems that you are more interested in the intricate definition of a coup according to various scholarly opinions which, as you can see in some articles above, are divided. Your opinion is respected, but we do not use WP:OR. Reliable sources seem to be using the simple definition approach. As for WP:WINARS, that is obvious. The articles were listed as examples for if this event is determined to be a coup attempt by reliable sources, not as a source to determine the article title.--WMrapids (talk) 11:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    While I appreciate you looking up the word "coup" in the dictionary, we generally frown on WP:OR. Chetsford (talk) 18:58, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chetsford: I feel like this article by the Brookings Institution makes good points and pretty much gives an explanation of what I said above.--WMrapids (talk) 11:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Kingsif: That's helpful. It seems like many reliable sources are describing this a "coup attempt", though it's still early so we are working on determining Wikipedia:Verify. Due to the importance of this article, we can be sure WP:OR should not be a problem as well. WP:NPOV seems to be alright too as numerous reliable sources have verified that Biden had won the election and that such acts of reversing the election are unlawful, so describing this as a "coup attempt" would be neutral. It seems like we are just working on the verifiability regarding how to describe the event at this point (insurrection, coup attempt, etc.)--WMrapids (talk) 12:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • If looking at more sources, The Guardian has now collected all its coverage under the tag "US Capitol stormed" on its website. But then they have a headline calling it an insurrection, and an opinion piece saying to call it a coup. Kingsif (talk) 13:12, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It is in my mind too early to use these types of words. The most accurate statement is protest turned riot. Unless someone can prove that the people involved had an organized plan to overthrow Congress, which is very doubtful, than the other labels don't apply. Also a lot of the sources using these terms are opinion pieces, they can be useful in describing what people 'think' of what happened, but not what it actually was. 3Kingdoms (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It's untrue that the labels "insurrection" or "coup" don't apply if there was not an organized plan to overthrow Congress. This is an arbitrary standard. I don't see what would support such a stance. The RS are converging on "insurrection" as many have noticed. Although there are some RS using "coup", as you have observed, some of the sources listed here are opinion pieces. This is not the case with "insurrection". Alalch Emis (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Putting aside my own personal opinion about this event, I wonder why do we need to count noses & apply just a single label. Why not write something like the following: "While this has been described as a coup [add citations to 2-3 examples of usage here], others have described it as an insurrection [add citations to 2-3 examples of usage here], or a riot [add citations to 2-3 examples of usage here]." IMHO, that would adhere to NPOV: we are reporting what others say, not our own opinions. (And we can save our discussion energy for which sources to use as examples.) -- llywrch (talk) 22:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would consider a coup to be an attempt by a group of high ranking government officials to suddenly seize the reigns of power, generally by posing a threat to the life or freedom of the existing leader. The storming was not by government officials and did not appear to have their support to take control of the government. It also seems that most of the people who broke in were not there in some sort of an attempt to take control of the government. As such the 'coup' label is unhelpful to readers. I am more supportive of insurrection, especially given its use by NPR and AP. Generally speaking, this seems most similar to Euro-Midan. ~ El D. (talk to me) 21:09, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    An insurrection is violent action that is taken by a large group of people against the rulers of their country, usually in order to remove them from office.... an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.

    Also, Biden used that term.

    A coup is a quick and decisive seizure of governmental power by a strong military or political group.... a sudden violent or illegal seizure of government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:250:4570:2DEE:EC99:D4AD:2C0F (talk) 09:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    What these guys did was really stupid. I would put that in the article if I could. For now there is only speculation about insurecction or conspiracyt. I'm joining others in voting wait and see. Spudlace (talk) 11:46, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There is tremendous clarity regarding what happened due to the incredible amount of journalistic activity and coverage, and the public nature of the events. The pseudo-revolution was televised and it amounted to an insurrection. This is what the RS are expressing at this point. This is not to say that what took place isn't a storming, but the storming is the 'how' to the 'what' - the insurrection... which does not have to be smart. This standard amuses me. This event will not be remembered as stupid but as painful and frightening to people all around the world. Alalch Emis (talk) 23:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I really apologize if I'm in the wrong section, I'm really rarely contributing to Wikipedia as a whole, I just wanted to point out some thoughts on the naming convention for this article:

    1. The "See Also" list gives other examples of "storming the legislature building". However, none of those articles are titled using the same naming convention. For example, the Armenian and Serbian articles are listed as "Protests" and not "Storming of X", even though the situation is almost exactly the same.
    2. Different naming conventions are often thrown around as political rhetoric, so a media site calling something a coup does not (by itself) make it a coup, any more than political rhetoric from conservative news sites are taken in the opposite direction
    3. Strictly speaking, a coup implies a military insurrection of some kind, but all the people in this situation are civilians, not military

    So the naming convention of the article I would support, one way or the other, would be simply something that is consistent with other articles that already exist LutherVinci (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    • not a coup There are some mainstream sources and dedicated articles that the event was not a coup. A problem with "a coup or not a coup, that is the question" is because of strong feelings of journalists, some have been very forceful to call it a coup. With polarization, nobody wants to compromise. To me, it was a riot but there was no concerted efforts common in a coup. That could change with a FBI investigation. How exactly was the man with the fur hat and horns going to be King of the US? And the man with his feet on Speaker Pelosi's desk; did he have secret plans to be the new Speaker of the House? The problem with the above list is that many of the articles have become politicized so that they are no longer reliable sources. That is sad to see. Vowvo (talk) 00:07, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Federal law enforcement assistance of Trump

    European officials are now saying that Trump received assistance with establishing supporters within the Capitol. Security officials from Europe stated they train with US federal forces and that "it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored". This is interesting as one argument regarding the definition of "coup" is that it requires assistance from armed branches of the government.--WMrapids (talk) 05:40, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Insurrection?

    While the previous move was closed with the recommendation to wait about a week, we are now about three days after the event. After reviewing more recent sources, it seems that the term "insurrection" has been determined to be the most common term. CNN is even hosting a special titled "The Trump Insurrection". Any opinions on this?--WMrapids (talk) 12:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    What is an insurrection? "Rebellion and insurrection refer specifically to acts of violence against the state or its officers." [4] How is the occupation of the capitol "violence against the state or its officers"? Certainly, it is the primary inflammatory term associated with the event. But is it accurate? Jrb1tx (talk) 17:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    It is very accurate.... many news used the word, "insurrection". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:250:4570:2DEE:EC99:D4AD:2C0F (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, insurrection is the term most used by reliable sources. Only Fox news calls it a "storming" in attempts to romanticise the event and build support for a Trump pardon for the participants. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 13:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    My understanding is that the decision was to wait for a week to see what the event is to be referred as. Many reliable sources started using the word "insurrection" at the Capitol more consistency now. I assume at some point, the article will be moved to 2021 insurrection at the United States Capitol, right? Here are just a few examples:

    Media
    • NPR created a news category called "Insurrection At The Capitol"[5]
    • PBS Classroom resource: Three ways to teach the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol[6]
    • Tampa Bay Times "insurrection at the Capitol"[7]
    • Fortune "the insurrection at the Capitol"[8]
    • National Geographic "the Capital insurrection"[9]
    • The Guardian's First Thing "insurrection at the Capitol"[10]
    • Aljazeera "US Capitol insurrection"[11]
    Politicians from both parties
    • Statement of President George W. Bush on "Insurrection at the Capitol"[12]
    • Mitt Romney on an "insurrection" as reported on a reliable source (NYTimes)[13]
    • Joe Biden on an "insurrection" as reported on a reliable source (Sydney Morning Herald)[14]
    Discussion and event names
    • Hammer Museum "Insurrection at the Capitol: What’s Next?"[15]
    • University of Denver "Insurrection at the Capitol"[16]

    An important reliable source is from the the Congress. The Article of Impeachment describes the event as an insurrection which had 4 elements in it:[17][18]

    • Beaching and vandalizing of the Capitol
    • Injuring and killed law enforcement personnel
    • Menacing the Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel
    • Engaging in other violent, deadly, destructive and seditious acts

    I think the word breaching is similar to the current word "storming" that is used as the title. That is just one element of the overall event in which it is known in the article as an insurrection. By leaving the title to just one element of the event, it may not capture the overall picture of what it is as many reliable sources now describe the overall event than just as the "storming" part of it. Z22 (talk) 19:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The second Trump impeachment WAS for him "inciting an insurrection" and it is now in the history books. So how is this not the most appropriate description for what happened at the Capitol now? RobP (talk) 07:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    That was a coup d'état

    I am looking at this new article in CNN, Investigators looking into planning of Capitol riot. Indeed, it is highly probable that the planning and participation involved well prepared groups of rioters in all gear (they even brought restraints to capture the members of Congress, just as they wanted to capture the Michigan governor), some police (who did not stop the mob and allowed everyone to leave when the rioters realized that lawmakers are gone), possibly some Pentagon officials (who did not sent the guard even after the request by DC mayor), and possibly even Republican lawmakers and the president. There is a lot of chat about it, including even some analysis by Michael Moore and separately by Yuri Shvets who is definitely an expert (here (Russian)). The purpose of the coup was to prevent the inauguration of new president. My very best wishes (talk) 15:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes. A coup d'état attempt (so far).
    The Capitol siege was planned online. Trump supporters are now planning the next one
    "Given the very clear and explicit warning signs – with Trump supporters expressing prior intent to “storm and occupy Congress” and use “handcuffs and zip ties,” clear plans being laid out on public forums, and the recent precedent of the plot to storm the Michigan Capitol building while Congress was in session – it is truly mind-boggling that the police were not better-prepared,” said Rita Katz, executive director of SITE Intelligence Group, which was among the research groups that detailed what was coming in the weeks before the Capitol was attacked. It recapped much of this evidence in a report published Saturday." ... "ARMED MARCH ON CAPITOL HILL & ALL STATE CAPITOLS” for Jan. 17, the last Sunday of Trump’s polarizing presidency."
    Ruth Ben-Ghiat, professor of history and Italian studies at New York University, wrote the book Strongmen: How They Rise, Why They Succeed, How They Fall: “Historian of coups and right-wing authoritarians here. If there are not severe consequences for every lawmaker & Trump govt official who backed this, every member of the Capitol Police who collaborated with them, this 'strategy of disruption' will escalate in 2021.”
    This Is a Coup. Why Were Experts So Reluctant to See It Coming?
    Fascinatingly, fascist-natingly, the Defense Department is referring to the pro-Trump riot as “the January 6, 2021 1st Amendment Protests.” https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jan/08/2002562063/-1/-1/1/PLANNING-AND-EXECUTION-TIMELINE-FOR-THE-NATIONAL-GUARDS-INVOLVEMENT-IN-THE-JANUARY-6-2021-FIRST-AMENDMENT-PROTESTS-IN-WASHINGTON-DC.pdf ← This memo tells you all you need to know.--217.234.68.109 (talk) 22:01, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you! In particular, this interview] with Ruth Ben-Ghiat is very helpful. This might be a bifurcation point in US history. My very best wishes (talk) 02:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You are welcomen ;-) Ben-Ghiat: "I’m very worried that this... “armed march” being planned for January 17th around the nation. And once you legitimize and give a presidential imprimatur to extremism, and once you convince — you plant people throughout federal agencies, you know, you radicalize law enforcement, as Bill Barr, who stepped away but has a huge amount of responsibility for this, it’s very hard to turn this back." Remenber, No public appearances with remarks from the AG or FBI director. Capitol Police haven’t held a single briefing. DHS secretary just stepped down. All since a mob just stormed the Capitol. --217.234.74.185 (talk) 17:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And what they are going to do next? "They were talking about 4,000 armed 'patriots' to surround the Capitol" [19]. Who knows? In 1999 Putin and his comrades arranged a series of terrorist acts to grab the power (that page was fixed for "neutrality" by one of Russian-speaking accounts [20]). My very best wishes (talk) 17:44, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Speaking more about coups, the leader must have a support by organizations like the army, the secret police or political Parties in order to succeed. Neither seem to be the case here, except only supremacist organizations and some Republicans. However, this is hard to say with certainty at the moment. My very best wishes (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    French-speaking sources cited

    I am a native French speaker, and it seems that some French newspapers in the list above don't actually qualify this event as a coup, but as a « coup de force », which Wiktionary defines as “A suddent, violent act.” The word “coup” in English would be translated as « coup d’état » instead. The affected sources are Le monde diplomatique (both), BFM TV, Orange, Euronews, Ouest-France, and La Voix du Nord (which uses « coup d’état » in citations only). Also, I couldn’t verify the citation for the France Info article, “Pro-Trump coup” is just « États-Unis » in the title of the article on my computer. In fact, the article says that « Didier Combeau estime qu’il s’agit plus “d’une manifestation d’extrémistes peu nombreux” qu’une tentative [sic] coup d’État » (“Didier Combeau believes that it is more “a menifestation of few extremists’ than a coup attempt.”) Nicolapps (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I have verified that "coup de force" indeed does not correspond to "coup d'etat". Therefore I have removed the following sources from the list:
    -- Alalch Emis (talk) 23:41, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you! Nicolapps (talk) 17:08, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    NOTFORUM and Civility violation

    Please remember that news outlets use sensational words to describe an event in order to get the attention of the viewers. Those that were protesting wanted their voice to be heard. Just a portion of the people that attended the demonstration were violent. Most of if not all of the priceless works of art were untouched. There were many videos of people in the capital just mulling around like they were on a guided tour. Almost in awe of their surroundings. The love of their country and their freedoms brought them to the capital. Many did not heed the words of the president when he asked his supporters to be peaceful. If it was a coup, who was the one calling for it? If it was an insurrection where is the evidence. The news outlets use those terms, but they do not provide any proof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MissBehaving (talk • contribs) 01:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    You sweet, summer child. What sort of dull-eyed thugs are needed to overthrow the nation and keep power? The current president will use any support he can find, and did so, and as it became ugly, he reveled in what he had unleashed. In the Rwanda genocide, leaders announced over radio it was time to "cut down the tall trees". They don't say 'Ok, let's quite precisely knock on the door and demand control of the democracy.' I do think "Hang Mike Pence" is no construction of sensational words by a click-seeking media. This is technically a "reverse coup" I guess. I'm glad they only wanted to murder the vice president, rather than destroy priceless art. I don't believe they love this particular country, which is a democracy. And crushing the skull of a policeman isn't embracing freedoms. This is a coup attempt in plain sight, with all the ingredients. Mcfnord (talk) 21:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As I wrote earlier, a coup implies some actions by regular military or organization by ruling elites. If the action is done purely by normal civilians, no matter what their intentions are, no matter how organized they are, would still be an insurrection and not a coup, and as I pointed out there are other Wikipedia articles of similar events in Armenia and Serbia which aren't even called insurrections, but called protests. Media outlets may use sensationalist terminology to grab people's attention, or purposefully imply that the action was a coup, even if that is more flowery language. That being said, if there was any media outlet that proves the action was done by military or specifically orchestrated by Trump as an attempt to disband congress, then yes it would be a coup. So far, all we have proved is that Trump incited or inspired the action, and some police were delayed a few hours before intervening, and that's pretty much it right now. In fact, if the people are calling for hanging Mike Pence, who is absolutely in Trump's camp, that kind of invalidates the claim of it being an elite-orchestrated event, and therefore invalidating it being called a coup. QED. LutherVinci (talk) 05:04, 13 January 2021 (UTC) (forgot to log in earlier)[reply]
    @LutherVinci: Having the military being involved is a common misconception; it just requires a violent attempt to overthrow a government. The New Yorker actually hypothesized a similar example in October 2020, stating "For example, Trump could summon federal agents or his supporters to stop a recount or intimidate voters. According to some experts, this would constitute an autogolpe, or 'self-coup'". This is almost what happened on January 6. However, it seems that the event has been consistently described as an "insurrection" by reliable sources, so we should use that description and then make comments about the term "coup" in the body.--WMrapids (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Insurrection is what the United States government has declared took place.

    Time to change the headline

    https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-news-01-12-21/h_ff48d5c57b86031716423f4c0b8b9940

    --Caffoti (talk) 23:07, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    cnn is explaining the difference between sedition a coup d'etat and an insurrection. ://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/insurrection-coup-sedition-meaning-trnd/index.html

    capital invasion

    [[21]] Its what it was, RS say it and it really is not all that loaded.Slatersteven (talk) 11:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Riot

    However sources like this say people are bieng charged as rioters [[22]].Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    “A”, if not “the” mainstream view is that ‘coup’ is apt. Instead the word has been entirely whitewashed from the first half of the article, where it is called a mere riot.
    C’mon, people. --50.201.195.170 (talk) 14:23, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    A riot would be if a normal protest went out of control; there is evidence showing that this was at least partially planned out and the intention was to kill or kidnap several members of Congress and maybe the vice president which makes it an insurrection SRD625 (talk) 12:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    This was not a riot. This was a violent uprising against the legislators in order to stop them from performing the Constitutional requirement to count the electoral votes. This is the very definition of an insurrection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.117.147 (talk) 04:04, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I strongly disagree with calling this a coup or insurrection. Media headlines often exaggerate things to attract the attention of the readers to the article.The words “coup” or “insurrection” are more likely to attract attention than simply stating the capitol was “stormed”. Based on the evidence, this was mob of people from a variety of groups. It doesn’t appear to have had an organized leadership, and had no intention of overthrowing the US government, simply to disrupt the vote count. The theft of labtops was probably by conspiracy theorists trying to confirm they were right. Many members of the mob seem to have just contented themselves with vandalism, with several pieces of artwork representing historical figures from both the left and the right targeted. This indicates the goal was general destruction rather than targeting paintings and statues of people associated with one side of the political spectrum. In any case, we cannot simply speculate or exaggerate details like the media. We need reliable, unbiased sources, which will presumably become available as time goes on and the investigation reveals its findings. Investigation is still underway, and it could be awhile before we get any concrete answers. I say we leave the title of the article as is for now. Anasaitis (talk) 19:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Riot or Insurrection/Coup Attempt

    One more important distinction, no one has been arrested and/or charged with the crime of treason, insurrection, or for a coup d'etat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.146.167.165 (talk) 17:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    RFC: Should this event be characterized as terrorism?

    Should this event be characterized as terrorism? 00:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


    Transcluded discussion from other talk page

    Support

    • Yes, per "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." "terrorism. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000". web.archive.org. 20 June 2006. — Maile (talk) 01:13, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes: clearly described as such by reliable sources and by influential people across the political spectrum. Sceptre (talk) 01:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes similarly in The Oxford English Dictionary - 2a "The unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". This event is literally the definition of terrorism. Nfitz (talk) 01:20, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, by the definition of terrorism by the FBI: "Domestic terrorism is the unlawful use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual based and operating entirely within the United States or Puerto Rico without foreign direction committed against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof in furtherance of political or social objectives." https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005 Dobekofcas (talk) 01:23, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes per my comments at Talk:Domestic terrorism in the United States. We aren't smarter than numerous reliable sources, the President-elect, and a multitude of other leaders. This isn't complicated. --Bongwarrior (talk) 01:25, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Soft Yes IF sufficient RSes in support of calling it terrorism can be established, AND consensus is established that there is enough RS publication for it to be in Wikipedia's voice. If the first but not the second happens, then support maintaining current section: "The riots and storming of the Capitol were described as insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism." Builder018 (talk) 01:25, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, applicable to all articles that mention this event., per Bongwarrior's reasoning. Jdphenix (talk) 01:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC) [reply]
    • (edit conflict) Comment Let’s see... they attempted to “overthrow” the results of the election with violent insurrection. They attacked law enforcement with lead pipes in the process of breaking and entering the government’s legislative building. There was a stand-off inside the building with guns drawn. A woman in this so-called mob was shot and killed trying to climb through a window. They ransacked offices and defiantly sat in officials’ seats with their fists raised. If it were in any other country what would you consider calling this? So yes, because that was their intention even if the dramatic irony befalls them. Trillfendi (talk) 01:29, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Well ... MSNBC in its self-ad, refers to coverage of "domestic terrorism" as part of their purpose. — Maile (talk) 02:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ "28 CFR § 0.85".
    2. ^ Borger, Julian; The Guardian: "Insurrection Day: when white supremacist terror came to the US Capitol" 2021 January 9 [1] Retrieved 2021 January 11.
    3. ^ Tucker, Eric. "Attack highlights challenge of pursuing domestic extremists". The Associated Press. Retrieved 12 January 2021.

    Oppose

    The difference between a group of people infiltrating a government building thinking they can threaten politicians into not voting (symbolicly as it were) for something and a group of people protesting against *checks notes* human rights violations while being tear gassed, is that the latter group of people weren’t threatening the action of democracy. Trillfendi (talk) 01:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I would not have a problem with that either. Many of the BLM/Antifa riots were far more violent than the Capitol Hill Storming and tactics used certainly checked the boxes for terrorism. Similarly, there were certainly participants of the storming who had terroristic intentions at very least. I would be supportive of both this, and the BLM/Antifa riots being categorized as terrorism. History Man1812 (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2021 (UTC)History_Man1812[reply]
    Again, NPOV must be maintained and your views of motivation behind two different rioting mobs do not decide whether it constitutes terrorism.ExplosiveResults (talk) 01:44, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Terrorism is a method, the idealistic motivators of an action are irrelevant to whether it's "terrorism" or not.PailSimon (talk) 01:41, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That is incorrect. The definition(s) of terrorism include the political purpose. Breaking into a house in order to steal something is not terrorism, but breaking into a house in order to intimidate someone to vote a specific way is. Sjö (talk) 09:56, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Black Lives Matter were people protesting unarmed African Americans getting killed by police; the Capitol Insurrection was primarily white supremacists upset they lost an election and tried to change the result by force. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.117.147 (talk) 04:07, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Some of the people identified at the Capitol were already on FBI watchlists, there is no such things as BLM riots, BLM doesn't organize riots, they conduct protests, which isn't terrorism, and have permits from the city to do so. White supremacists at the Capitol had weapons and handcuffs, used flag poles, fire extinguishers, and stun guns to attack police and others, used mob force to crush and rip of the badges and weapons of law enforcement, prevent them from leaving, caused Congress members and staff to go into hiding in fear for their lives, wore anti-semitic clothing and carried white nationalist symbols, and went on a search to find the Vice President of the United States and Speaker of the House of Representatives. They also planted bombs nearby. One sounds like terrorism to me, the other sounds like protesting as allowed under the Constitution. Oh, and all rioting isn't terrorism. It involves more. Teammm talk
    email     01:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Not sure what you mean by BLM riots, ExplosiveResults - which doesn't seem notable - do you have a reference?. There have been protests on many things (like sports games) that have descended into rioting after extended period. That doesn't make it terrorism. This storming appeared to have been the plan of the "protesters" ... and happened almost immediately. As far as I know the vast majority of BLM protests were entirely peaceful, and the worst offence was blocking traffic, or noise violations - certainly around here. Nfitz (talk) 01:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    BLM and/or Antifa protests have done more than "blocking traffic". They have burned down police stations, repeated attacks on the federal courthouse in Portland, set up "autonomous zones" in several cities, and don't even get me started on the five police officers killed in Dallas in 2016 during a BLM protest.96.241.129.33 (talk) 21:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    BLM protests were scheduled ahead of time, coordinated with local law enforcement and the media. The fact that looters and other opportunistic types showed up to create chaos was not the goal of BLM. — Maile (talk) 01:55, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    So let me get this straight: Breaking past capitol security, causing minor property damage to the building, and walking around inside for a little while in response to an allegedly stolen election is terrorism, but killing civilians and burning down cities because a few criminals got killed isn't? How absurd. Display name 99 (talk) 03:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course! That's why they were there. They just wanted to have a little walk around the place. Very fine people, I'm sure. --Bongwarrior (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Terrorists are usually armed though. Pipe bombs found outside the building notwithstanding, I don't think any of the rioters were armed. Otherwise, just refer to RS, not POV. Including mine. RandomGnome (talk) 04:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Some of the rioters absolutely were armed. You are correct, though, that we should go with RS. GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Checking the article, I found mention of an 'armed standoff' and 'chemical sprays'. You are correct that some of the rioters were armed, but these appear to be more isolated events within a highly disorganized and opportunist riot by a disparate group that managed to gain access to the building, rather than a concerted, armed terrorist siege. But as you say, we defer to RS. I would urge editors to find sufficient high quality RS before RfCing for 'terrorism'. Thanks. RandomGnome (talk) 04:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I noticed several extensive discussions on this talk page and others related to terrorism, with edit warring. I've seen reasonable RS arguments for both. I opened this to get discussion in (hopefully) one spot. Jdphenix (talk) 05:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Display name 99: Holy strawman Batman! "minor property damage" and "walking around inside"? That's a funny way of describing violently breaking into a federal building and planting not one but two IEDs in an attempt to overthrow an election. Bravetheif (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No As said above, most if not all reliable sources call this a riot, at most it is referred to as an insurrection, which is a dubious claim in it of itself JazzClam (talk) 14:29, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Please note that JazzClam is subject to a topic ban on post-1932 American politics, and their above comments are only present due to a clerical error. See Special:Permalink/999792924 § JazzClam for details. — Newslinger talk 03:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No This is a malformed RfC, and probably going to end up as a snowball again, as declaring it to be ex post facto terrorism by interpreting it as "Yes, per "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." would clearly be wp:OR. Let's chill on the RfCs for a while. BrxBrx(talk)(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}}) 01:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Wow consensus on “facts”...could this be anymore intellectually dishonest...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.161.229.135 (talk • contribs)

    I don't see how, User:PailSimon, that identification of event is a biased issue, with Republicans and (former) Trump supporters calling this terrorism. How is this article from a local newspaper (Washington Post) not a reliable source? It even identifies some of the white nationalist terror groups involved. Nfitz (talk) 06:33, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The last part of this argument is demonstrably false. Lin Wood; "The time has come Patriots. This is our time. Time to take back our country. Time to fight for our freedom" [BusinessInsider]. His Parler post; "Get the firing squads ready. Pence goes FIRST." [Washington Post]. The bombs. Violent intent isn't debatable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdphenix (talk • contribs) 04:13, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No Most reliable sources are not characterizing it as a terrorist attack, even if they report declarations of this or that politician that calls it domestic terrorism, they usually do it clear in-text attribution. If you have followed media coverage of actual terrorist attacks, you probably know the difference between most reliable sources calling something terrorism, as opposed to some politicians calling names. --MarioGom (talk) 09:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No. I went through all sources cited in this discussion, and none call it terrorism in their own voice, so as best I can tell it fails verification. Moreoever, "terrorism" is a contentious label that requires wide use by reliable sources. If anyone can establish such wide use, then please ping me and I will reevaluate my position. R2 (bleep) 07:50, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No/Wait Most reliable sources of international reputation — including progressive ones such as the New York Times or The Washington Post — are not classifying it as terrorism. Some people in the "Yes" section argue that the have reliable sources, but either don't provide them or provide sources that are not that straightforward on this subject. Others argue that this falls into their preferred definition of terrorism, but that looks like original research to me.--JBchrch (talk) 14:58, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No. 1) It's a lazy catch-all that conflates very different types of acts. 2) Reliable sources are not using it. 3) There will be a better description (though which term has not yet been resolved. It might end up being called a failed coup, maybe an insurrection.) Jd2718 (talk) 15:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Obviously no. Even the question of this RFC is ridiculous, terrorism is milestones to the power of infinity far cry away of this event. I heavily agree as well what is coined on the top of this thread about NPOV and double measure, on the other hand quite sad political soapboxing became so widespread in WP, seeing the number of votes to support, incredible! Not knowing/understanding what terrorism really is raises a huge concerns. Btw. I am not watching or editing this page, just by coincidence I saw this RFC, so without any ping will ignore any further here, I hope sane thoughts will trial here, not political interests/propaganda/agenda.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:22, 11 January 2021 (UTC))[reply]
    • No. FOR NOW. Demonstrations which lead to occupations of public buildings aren't usually defined as terrorism in reliable sources. But we have to follow if the historical consensus uses that term down the line.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, they were a protest that evolved into unlawful actions of serious caliber, but that's it. Even if a couple of protestors may turn out to have had terrorist intentions in my opinion it should not represent the whole event.Forich (talk) 21:11, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No That is ridiculous. Terrorism is conducted by a terrorist organisation, it's usually a violent act to cause fear in a populous - ie it causes "terror". This was simply a mob attacking a building, and at the heart of it, there is no "terrorist" act that causes "terror" (ie a bombing, or the taking of hostages, or someone being killed). I don't think the public are particularly afraid of these protestors, in the terror sense. The motivation of the crowd wasn't to cause terror in the public for a political cause, - essentially the protestors were pissed off at the government and wanted to vent their frustration. Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No A no opinion does not mean support for the riot. Vowvo (talk) 00:10, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It is an incorrect assertion, because an act of terrorism does not necessitate "a LOT more people" being killed; for instance, in 1985'a incident involving TWA Flight 847 there was 1 fatality. In fact, an act of terrorism can occur without any casualties, like in Japan Airlines Flight 351. In the Capitol, there was an officer of the law killed, and The Guardian reported that "Two pipe bombs had been found at Republican and Democratic party offices near Congress"[1] Tortillovsky (talk) 17:25, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The legal definition of terrorism varies from country to country - in some countries a certain level of seriousness/damage is required. In most Anglo-Saxon countries 'intent' rather than outcome is the defining factor. IRA actions in London often did no actual harm but caused massive economic disruption simply by threatening acts such as planting multiole small incendiary devices on the transport system, thengiving an ambiguous warning. But yes, there is not generally a minimum 'body count'. Pincrete (talk) 09:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No - not in WPVOICE although attributed claims in the form "politicians/sources X+Y" described it as domestic terrorism would be apt. Terrorism has a precise legal definition in each country and it is exremely unlikely that anyone is going to be charged with any directly 'terrorist' offences. Riot, trespass, assault, damage or theft, threatening behaviour, possibly insurrection and possibly manslaughter iro a few individuals are all that are being spoken of as possible charges at the moment. You can't have terrorism without a terrorist, just as you cannot have murder without a murderer, and despite many of the perps being filmed, directly 'terrorist' - and probably even directly 'political' charges, such as insurrection, for the mob itself - are extremely unlikely AFAI can see. Pincrete (talk) 10:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No - Just because it fits the definition of terrorism does not mean it should be classified as such. By definition all riots that ever happened would have been classified as terrorism. While it may feel good to label this as a terrorist act, using a technicality is not the way to do it. Orangewarning (talk) 15:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Not all RS calls it terrorism. Others call it coup. Others call it insurrection. Others call it storming. Others call it riots. Others call it rape. Others call it concert. Others call is anarchy. Others call it apocalypse. Others call it judgement. Others call it doomsday. Others call it massacre. Others call it flood. Others call it noisy. Others call it bad. Others call it stupid. Others call it violent. Others call it discredited. Others call it hate. Others call it hatred. Others call it killings. Others call it event. Others call it earthquake. Others call it tsunami. Others call it impeachment. Others call it pedophilia. Others call it breach. Others call it vandalism. Others call it edit war. Others call it war. Others call it World War 3. Others call is Donald Biden. Others call it looting. Others call it protests. Others call it BLM2. Others call it Just Some American Stuff. Others call it The Simpsons. Others call it Capitol Disaster. Others call it evening. Others call it day. Others call it January. Others call it 2021. Others call it something. We can't fit everything to one. Thus, they can be redirects and Wikipedia can give itself its own name (the current). GeraldWL 15:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No - As per above. I would honestly support a renaming to 2021 United States Capitol Incident, even, but that's somewhat irrelevant. I feel like storming is about as neutral as we can get without people from either side protesting the decision.SkynetPR (talk) 15:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No - I'm pretty vehemently against the actions of the rioters and what they stand for, but that said, calling this "terrorism" would seem to raise a lot of WP:NPOV issues. It also doesn't seem to be reflective of the verbiage that a majority of reliable sources are using. Most definitions generally call terrorism violence directed at civilians, which doesn't entirely fit in this instance. We can certainly make qualified statements that use "terrorism" (e.g. "Several news outlets referred to the incident as terrorism"), but we shouldn't use "terrorism" in narrative voice. Remember that "terrorism" is a word to watch. We should only apply it if we're confident. NickCT (talk) 19:32, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Other

    • Wait. If individual rioters receive charges of terrorism, terrorism-related charges, or charges of sedition - we should refer to this act as "terrorism". Until then, I propose that we simply wait. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 01:54, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait. I would prefer to wait until there has been news of individuals or organizations being referred doing "terrorist" behavior. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 02:01, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait, per Mt.FijiBoiz. This seems reasonable and objective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdphenix (talk • contribs) 02:04, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait I would wait until such individuals are charged with terrorism-related charges, once they are I will be in support. JayJayWhat did I do? 02:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait While the definition of terrorism has been expanded significantly in recent decades, it's looking like a very few of those involved were prepared for terroristic acts. When this is clarified we can have a suitable section. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]
    • Wait Personally these seem to be acts of terrorism to me, but I agree with the above that we should wait for charges or expert opinions. Ziko (talk) 09:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait, per above. Wikipedia isn't a publisher of original thought, and as this isn't classified as terrorism (yet?), we should wait until it is classified as such. JackFromReedsburg (talk | contribs) 14:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait. Per WP:LABEL, value-laden labels should be treated cautiously even if used by reliable sources. Sources will begin to describe the event more neutrally as it leaves the realm of news and enters the realm of history.Jancarcu (talk) 17:48, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait. Wait a bit and see what RS converge on, and we get a clearer picture of motivations, who the leaders were, who planted the bombs, how they organized, et cetera. Terrorism isn't really well-defined, so I'm opposed to an appeal to definitions. DrIdiot (talk) 21:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait if there are charges of "terrorism" for people involved I'll consider it, but I don't see the support for that label as-of-yet. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait Too soon, but if a majority of reliable sources begin using the term, so can Wikipedia. Usage in RS will probably be influenced by what kind of charges will be brought (i.e. terrorism-related or not). Sjö (talk) 09:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait until a consensus is reached within our sources. -- ToE 11:17, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait per everyone else. Some people were there to protest, some were clearly rioting, some were clearly there to commit assassinations and acts of terror... It's a very complicated, multifaceted event, and we should just wait to see what a majority of experts and officials say, all across the board. Love of Corey (talk) 00:54, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait per most above. 777burger talk contribs 06:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait for reliable sources to converge on descriptors, per Sjö. GABgab 18:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait until, as mentioned above, news on if those arrested have been charged with terrorism-related crimes. EmmerdaleFan1972 (talk) 02:11, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hold on - While organizations such a QAnon and Proud Boys might be characterized as terrorist due to their plottings of assassinations and such, Wikipedia shouldn't characterize the attack that way in Wikipedia's voice. The article can include examples of reliable sources, properly attributed, that characterize the attacks that way. The only class of topics I know of where it's permissible (even required) to use a value-laden WP:LABEL in Wikipedia's narrative voice is WP:FRINGE topics, and this isn't one of them. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:25, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait, someone made a good point. - OK, so before I continue with my justification, let it be clear that none of the following sentences shall show either political support or political opposition to either of the events mentioned herein. If we are going to classify the event at the Capitol as terrorism, then (as some users above mentioned) there have been other events last year, most notably BLM/Antifa riots, that must also be classified as terrorism. My reasoning: Categorizing something as terrorism requires 1) political motivation to cause a desired change 2) targeting of noncombatant persons (usually civilian) 3) intention to (preferably quickly) instill fear into noncombatant targets 4) at least one person present, virtually or physically, to do something destructive through the use of violence or intimidation. So, the event at the Capitol hits the first (obviously). The targeting is hard to pin because it was not specific, but the third one is a hit, as is the fourth one. At best it hits 4/4, at worst, 3/4. But note, however, that this "checklist" applies only to the people who are actually committing to #4. I can't add this to the article without sourcing because WP:OR but it was clear from footage that most people were not interested in violence, only a portion of them. Because other people were present in large numbers that fit #1 but not #4, the validity of classifying this as terrorism is debatable. Compare this to the various riots in 2020 by BLM/Antifa. They hit #1, obviously. They targeted stores and other buildings, so #2 is a hit. And all of the riots involved their burning, so #4 is also a hit. #3 is debatable, but because at least one person of clear political opposition who were in their way was beaten (to death iirc), I tend to lean toward the affirmative. So at best, this gets 4/4, at worst 3/4. And unlike the event at the Capitol, this one does apply to almost every single person involved. So, my stance: if we classify this act as terrorism, the BLM/Antifa riots must also be classified as terrorism, but (to avoid affirming the consequent) if the BLM/Antifa riots are classified as terrorism, the event at the Capitol need not necessarily be classified as terrorism. Inversely, if we do not classify this act as terrorism, the BLM/Antifa riots may still be classified as terrorism, but (again, a.t.c.) if the BLM/Antifa riots are not classified as terrorism, then this act must also not be classified as terrorism. LegendoftheGoldenAges85, Team  M  (talk | worse talk) 22:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion

    • Some articles, categories and lists that are relevant to this RfC: Domestic terrorism in the United States, List of terrorist incidents in 2021, Category:Terrorist incidents in 2021, Category:Terrorist incidents in the United States. --MarioGom (talk) 16:49, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm on the fence between "yes" and "wait". Per WP:NOR, the question is not whether we think the events fall under a dictionary definition of "terrorism", but whether reliable, secondary sources think so. On the other hand, I do see there are already some secondary sources trickling in (e.g. this WaPo article mentioned by My very best wishes above), so if the answer here is "wait", I don't think we'll have to wait long. Mz7 (talk) 01:53, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      We could always add a sentence right now citing the WaPo article and giving in-text attribution, e.g. "The event was described as domestic terrorism by various lawmakers and national security experts." I don't think the WaPo article alone is enough to support calling the event terrorism in, say, the first sentence of the article. Mz7 (talk) 02:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Mz7, that sounds good. Most reliable sources are not calling it a terrorist attack, but they are definitely covering declarations by lawmakers describing it as such. MarioGom (talk) 08:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I saw someone added the following sentence to the lead, which 3Kingdoms just removed:

      This violence against innocent people to further a political ideology is consistent with the FBI's definition of domestic terrorism.[2][3]

      We cannot use the FBI primary sources to support this sentence because of WP:SYNTH: the sources themselves do not directly come to the conclusion that these specific riots fall under its definition of domestic terrorism. On the other hand, the WaPo article that I linked earlier does come to this conclusion directly ("National security experts agreed with that assessment, comparing the aggressive takeover of the federal landmark to the FBI’s definition of domestic terrorism"). I would probably support adding a tweaked version of the sentence to the lead, citing the WaPo article instead of the FBI primary sources. Mz7 (talk) 06:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Mz7, indeed, it seems a sizeable amount of !voters here are relying on WP:OR and WP:SYNTH based on FBI and dictionary definitions. MarioGom (talk) 13:49, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Just because it seems that it is terrorism does not mean it is. We need sources. All the "Yes's" are all opinion. Whenever we have made big decisions, such as on the Taiwan article and referring to it as a country, (That was a good day Wikipedia!) sources have been used. The primary reason the "Taiwan as a country" campaign won was because nearly all reliable sources refer to it as a country. This is no different. We cannot refer to them as terrorists because we don't like them, I don't like them either, that was a dark day, but that's no excuse to lose our moral high ground. JazzClam (talk) 14:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Please note that JazzClam is subject to a topic ban on post-1932 American politics, and their above comments are only present due to a clerical error. See Special:Permalink/999792924 § JazzClam for details. — Newslinger talk 03:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    if the article on terrorism has enough info to answer this question, then let it answer it. If it doesn't, improve or remove it-thanks

    No, this was not domestic terrorism. This was a case of heightened emotions that lead to a riot. The pipe bombs that were left around the Capitol did not detonate and there is no proof that a pro-Trump supporter placed the pipe bomb around the premise. The individual that placed the pipebombs could Possibly be classified as a terrorist, but those that stormed the Capitol should not be placed in that category unless there is a premeditated plan to break into the Capitol building. The media outlets like to use words that draw in their viewers. Also, if we go by what President-Elect Biden calls it, then we should follow the same guidelines with BLM or Antifa because Trump has called those entities terrorists. MissBehaving (talk) 02:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    • Occasionally repressive regimes attempt to stretch the definition of "terrorism" to include political protest of lesser or greater degrees of violence, we could perhaps include the Bolivian coup government of 2019-2020 in this, or the government of Belarus. However, terrorism is generally viewed as a military operation conducted by covert non-state actors whose goal is not to control territory or further some tactical or strategic aim within the context of traditional warfare, but to make a political point. I don't see any military aspect in this action, not were the participants behaving covertly. The violent demonstration in Washington was possibly, in the minds of some of its participants, an attempted coup, but even then, a failed coup attempt is not usually classed as terrorism. However, if by some miracle the balance of reliable sources in future (things like encyclopaedias and history books) refer to it as "terrorism" then I suppose it's ok. Boynamedsue (talk) 14:02, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I see a large number--if not most editors--have answered giving their personal opinion and analysis about whether this is or is not "terrorism." Isn't that WP:OR? How about we follow our most basic rules of Wikipedia and call it terrorism if and only if the WP:RS calls it that? --David Tornheim (talk) 04:25, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @David TornheimI think the problem here is that we have an event so prominent that we can find RS that call it a massive variety of things including "terrorism", "insurrection" and a "coup attempt". However, on balance the majority of RS won't take that position. This is why people feel free to wade in. I think we should just exclude terrorism for now, as it pretty clearly isn't from any neutral standpoint (and if it is, I've done terrorism on several occasions), and wait to see if a historical consensus calling it "terrorism" emerges in academic sources rather than news media. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:48, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ Borger, Julian; The Guardian: "Insurrection Day: when white supremacist terror came to the US Capitol" 2021 January 9 [2] Retrieved 2021 January 11.
    2. ^ "Terrorism". Federal Bureau of Investigation. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
    3. ^ "Terrorism 2002/2005". Federal Bureau of Investigation. Retrieved 2021-01-10.

    Requested move 16 January 2021

    2021 storming of the United States Capitol → Insurrection at the United States Capitol – Introduction: This is the big RM that people have been waiting for, for the past week or so. Saturday evening seems like a good time to start this. This is an important article and needs to have the best name it can have. Enough days have passed, while not too many, and this is the ideal time to have a very calm and substantive discussion. The name will always be slightly contested. This is not a reason not to proceed – WP:RMCM.

    The formatting must be correct now. Please only advocate in the form of "Support" or "Oppose" without suggesting alternatives. If you think a very close variant of the above such as "United States Capitol insurrection" is better, type "Support". A bold editor, or a subsequent technical move process will take care of this detail. Please remember that United States Capitol can't be shortened to Capitol or US Capitol.

    Policy statement: WP:NCE, there is an established common name for this event, based on "where" (United States Capitol) and "what" (Insurrection). The differences in the exact phrasing of the common name variants are neutral and unimportant. The article title does not need the "when" (the year), because the event is so immediately identifiable. The event is immediately identifiable because it is unprecedented and important. WP:PRECISE, insurrection is the most specific/precise descriptor. Competent people such as academics and reputable journalists describe the event as an insurrection. Using "insurrection" to describe this event meets the definition of insurrection. This usage is not controversial or contradicted by an authority. WP:NDESC, insurrection is a neutral descriptior. Major political figures on both sides of the spectrum have described the event as an insurrection. WP:CONCISE, insurection is a concise descriptor.

    Another relatively prominent term used to describe the event is "coup attempt" / "failed coup". This use is less prominent than insurrection. WP:COUP, coup is a strong word. Using "coup" to describe this event doesn't meet the definition of coup. When it's being called an attempt it's very unclear but for which aspect of failure of the coup, the coup would have succeeded, in order for the event to ultimately meet the definition of a coup in the first place – only then to be seen as an attempt. There is no such logical problem with insurrection, of which there can not be an attempt, because the consequence is not included in the definition. Insurrection is an insurrection regardless of success. A quashed insurrection is not "attempted insurrection" but merely an insurrection. This is very opportune for the purposes of robust article naming. Coup is not used in the article body in wikivoice. Insurrectionist (implying nothing other than insurrection) is. Apart from insurrection and coup there is no other term even approaching commonness. "Riot", "breach", "siege", "attack", "assault", "invasion" are inadequate for not meeting the above standards either partially or at all.

    The same goes for "storming". It should be noted that "storming" and "insurrection" are not mutually exclusive. The storming was one the methods. Among other actions (such as attempted bombing), it was the 'how' to the 'what'. The name needs to reflect the 'what'.

    WP:UCRN – Sufficient evidence of the proposed name being the common name is already included in this page – I urge you to look it over. I won't even link it as I think it's unnecessary.

    Process statement: The current name is a result of an expeditious proposal to change the name primarily to something other than "2021 United States Capitol protests". "Protests" was adequate for a brief moment, but as things took a violent turn, a discussion took place to urgently replace that with something sensible. At that time, the real motivation, as well as the standard used, for the move was mere propriety and common sense. There was consensus about "protests" in the negative, but consensus in the positive – over the common name was certainly not achieved, not to any serious degree, as no such thing could have even existed then (the very same day, and the following one). A great number of pro-move participants advocated for "insurrection", and there were many other proposals with significant support as well. Therefore, scores of users typed "Support" while simultaneously suggesting an alternative. What transpired was an unusual, miserably formatted, and essentially irregular, but still quite justified, move process. This is how things go in unprecedented situations. 

    As a matter of circumstance, the term proposed was "storming", but "storming" was not particularly favored over other terms in reliable sources. When some media put "storm" (verb) in their headlines, that was not indicative of "storming" as a chosen descriptor. The notion of the event as a whole and the primary action driving it (the verb "to storm") are not the same thing and should not be confused. Now it's evident that "storming" has not become the common name. 

    All of this can be gleaned from what the deciding administrator said in his closing message: This is a stopgap measure, and is not meant to be a permanent solution. Once the issue calms down, I encourage folks to tackle this again. Please wait at least a week until further renaming, so that the media can agree on a WP:COMMONNAME. I also suggest that if an RM is going to have multiple options to use things like "Option A" or "Option 1", so that it is easier to close :)

    Regardless of this, the current name isn't terrible. This is not about how "storming" is bad, but how "insurrection" is better; and not only better - that it's sufficiently better to warrant a move; and not only that - that it's exactly the best name, because it's the common name. This discussion is not how what happened was not a storming. Yes, arguably, it was also a storming. It was several things. This article is most certainly dealing with the whole phenomenon, evidenced in the inclusion of the pipe bombs and events in other cities. Still, this discussion is also not about how "storming" might have certain problematic connotations. This discussion has nothing to do with criminal adjudication for some crime of "insurrection" as that's not an element to the notion of insurrection, which is a fact of physical and social reality, that criminal law is only a minor facet of; criminal law does not answer "what is real" but "is X criminally liable for Y". An insurrection can happen in a tribal community or in a territory without a criminal justice system. This discussion has nothing to do with the current impeachment proceedings whatsoever; it's not about Donald Trump's role and incitement, as there can be an insurrection without incitement. This discussion is not about guns, and insurrectionists being armed or "well-armed", as this is not required for there to be an insurrection under most definitions, and since some or many indeed were armed, the remaining definitions are met too. 

    Either way, this discussion has only a little bit to do with definitions (only in the context of preciseness), but it has everything to do with the common name, as previously discussed.

    Conclusion: Be bold. Don't glorify the status quo as a result of a previous wonderful Wikipedia consensus-reaching process. The process was fine for what it was, but it wasn't excellent or conclusive by any means. Now we can have a truly excellent process. This is the only way to stop the torrent of RMs. Not "moratoriums" on discussions. This is the decisive action that this article needs to become the best it can be for a long time to come. Alalch Emis (talk) 17:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Addenda: (a few minor & brief points which are instantly verifiable; not discussion)
    1. The proposed title has fewer characters (41 v. 42) than the current title and fewer syllables than "Twenty twenty one storming of the United States Capitol" (13 v. 16).
    2. This has so far been the only insurrection at the Capitol (search for "Capitol" and look for insurrections) Alalch Emis (talk) 03:21, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion

    We are discussing this at some length above, it does no one any favours to have it discussed in three or four separate threads. Can we please combine it all into one?Slatersteven (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    This is a formal move request resulting from existing discussions reaching a natural endpoint and essentially converging on "insurrection". Alalch Emis (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    comment was posted for the purpose of formatting; struck own nominator comment per WP:RMCOMMENT — Alalch Emis (talk) 11:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Neutral. There isn't anything I can add to Alalch Emis's excellent treatment of the rationale to rename. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Update: Changing to neutral. I still think that "insurrection" is a better term than "storming", based on the rationale in the proposal that restricts a vote to a choice between those two terms, and I would be happy if the article was renamed accordingly, knowing that a further rename may be needed. However, given the discussion below, particularly about news search hits in the last 24 hours, "riots" may be a better choice. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:39, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I'm still drinking my morning coffee here on the West Coast, so haven't read this all yet... but wouldn't United States Capitol insurrection be more WP:CONCISE than Insurrection at the United States Capitol? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Muboshgu: This is already addressed in the second paragraph of the proposal above. A minor variation of the same title is considered the same title for the purpose of this vote, and can always be changed later. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:49, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Anachronist, ah yes it is. Need to finish my coffee and put on my reading glasses... – Muboshgu (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per Alalch Emis. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:58, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per the discussion up the page that so far has preferenced including the year 2021. I am not necessarily opposed to the storming/insurrection change, but I think the year inclusion is a major point of debate. I would also say "United States Capitol insurrection" is the more concise phrasing. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:06, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      To my ears "United States Capitol insurrection" sounds like "O.K. Corral Gunfight" instead of "Gunfight at the O.K. Corral", i.e. somehow unnatural. Less encyclopedic. I think that this difference is completely neutral and technical, so it isn't informative on commonness. That's why I didn't ask people to use Option A and Option B, as the quoted administrator suggested. If the RM was dealing with multiple descriptors, then I would have done so. About the year idk, that part is discussed mostly in terms of a previous storming, but if the descriptor is insurrecton – then i don't think there's a relevant existing discussion. This is the first insurrection at that location. Alalch Emis (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      While this might be the first true violent insurrection, I feel the term is often used metaphorically, similarly to "rebellion" or "revolt", to indicate any sort of disobedience to authority. Maybe including the year would be more clear to ground the time period of the event, although it's not the sort of hill I'd necessarily die on - nonetheless, in one of the previous discussions where people wanted to establish phrasing for the RM, the one including the year was getting the most support votes. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I appreciate (or at least try my best to) the ongoing discussions and the past ones. I'm just of the mind that the year discussions with respect to the descriptor "storming" are not relevant for a title with the descriptor insurrection. Nonetheless I get your different perspective on this and how insurrection could be used metaphorically. Personally, I think "rebellion" and "revolt" are indeed often used metaphorically, but perhaps insurrection not so much. People have even been saying how they aren't even terribly familiar with this word; now it's a part of everyone's everyday vocabulary, almost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alalch Emis (talk • contribs) 18:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      The discussion above I am referencing was specifically about the phrasing of the "insurrection" title, rather than the storming one. Inclusion of the year still got the most support, although it wasn't the biggest discussion. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      "Any sort of disobedience to authority" is not equivalent to insurrection. Misuse of the term by others shouldn't lead us to avoid the correct title here. Inkwzitv (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm not sure metaphor is akin to misuse, but I get your point. But if we are accepting that some people might misunderstand the term, doesn't that actually benefit the argument that including the year might provide clarity? This is an old building that has seen much history. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      What other "insurrections" at the US Capitol are you thinking it needs to be distinguished from? Inkwzitv (talk) 19:21, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm thinking about this more and I also think part of why I prefer the year is that "United States Capitol insurrection", on its own, sounds more like an overview of insurrection that has happened at the Capitol throughout its lifetime, rather than a specific event. Including the year makes it clear that this is a singular, event, as well as the rationale of clarity, as mentioned above. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per Alalch Emis. Leaving the year out is a good idea; don't want to suggest it'll be happening again, and it hasn't happened before. Inkwzitv (talk) 18:35, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Inkwzitv: Arguably, the building was in fact stormed during the Burning of Washington in 1814. It was certainly looted and burned by enemy troops. -- Beland (talk) 01:24, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Oh wait, but that wasn't an insurrection, which is what this is supporting. Nevermind! -- Beland (talk) 01:32, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly oppose. The claim "there is an established common name for this event" is absolutely wrong. A search for "capitol" news on Google currently brings up headlines with the terms "capitol rioters", "capitol riots", "capitol mob", "capitol attack", "capitol violence", "capitol siege". The word "insurrection" first appears in this result, which is currently the 20th (last on second page). A search for "capitol" news on Bing shows even more clearly that "Capitol riot" is the most common term, with "Capitol attack" in second place. Yes, we can argue about the title, but the discussion must be based on facts. Not on claims that are obviously false. — Chrisahn (talk) 18:38, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      (edit conflict) You didn't see the section at the top of this page, did you? —Locke Cole • t • c 18:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Of course I saw that discussion. The main argument for "insurrection" brought forth in that discussion seems to be a list of sources using that term. Unfortunately, no-one made a similar list for "riot". Currently the terms "capitol riot" and "capitol riots" are much more common in reliable sources than "capitol insurrection". Renaming the article to "insurrection" would be a mistake that we'd have to fix with yet another move request. — Chrisahn (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Chrisahn: The discussion here is about whether "insurrection" is better than "storming". If you are arguing google news results, then use a valid comparison: there are 47.9 million results for "capitol insurrection" and 18.3 million results for "capitol storming". On the basis of Google news results, wouldn't you agree that "insurrection" is an improvement? ~Anachronist (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      No, "insurrection" would not be an improvement. If we choose that title, we'll have to start a new renaming discussion right away, because it obviously isn't the most common term and does not conform to WP:NCE. That would be a waste of time. — Chrisahn (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Anachronist: Where did you get those numbers? Google says there are ~7 million results for "capitol insurrection", but 63 million results for "capitol riot". — Chrisahn (talk) 19:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Adding "&tbm=nws" in the search term finds these results:
      148 million results for https://www.google.com/search?q=capitol+riot&tbm=nws
      48 million results for https://www.google.com/search?q=capitol+insurrection&tbm=nws
      18 million results for https://www.google.com/search?q=capitol+storming&tbm=nws
      Inkwzitv (talk) 19:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Thanks, Inkwzitv. These numbers prove my point: "insurrection" clearly isn't the most common term and does not conform to WP:NCE. Renaming the article to "insurrection" would be a mistake and a waste of time. — Chrisahn (talk) 19:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Chrisahn: Actually, it proves my point that "insurrection" is better than "storming" based on those results. There are two outcomes to this discussion: either the title stays as "storming", which according to your criteria is the worst of those results, or it changes to "insurrection", which may not be optimal but it's an improvement. I asked if you agreed that "insurrection" is a preferable outcome to this discussion, and you did not answer. The word "riot" is not under discussion here. Which of the two outcomes to this RM do you prefer? Remember there can be further discussions after this one, whatever name is settled on isn't carved in stone. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Anachronist: I answered your question here. To reiterate and reinforce my point: Renaming the article to "insurrection" would be a mistake because it would violate our policies, in particular WP:NCE, because "insurrection" clearly isn't the most common term. It would also be a waste of time because we'd have to start a new discussion right away to rename it to a term that actually conforms to WP:NCE. Which outcome to this RM would I prefer? I think it should be closed immediately because it is based on a false claim. Let's be better than the Trumpists. — Chrisahn (talk) 20:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      A difference in opinion on individual policy-based matters is not constructively managed by accusing the other side of "violating our policies" and "false claims" in bold letters. Ironically, your idea to immediately close this section goes against policy. Alalch Emis (talk) 21:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Alalch Emis: Your claim that "insurrection" is the "established common name for this event" is simply false. The sources clearly show that it isn't. That's not a "difference in opinion". I do think you're acting in good faith, but you're simply mistaken about the prevalence of the term "insurrection" in reliable sources.
      You're probably right that an admin closing this request because it's based on a false claim would go against policy. I'd ask you to withdraw the request. (I assume that's allowed? I'm not sure.) It currently seems unlikely to pass, and even if it does, we'd have a new discussion right away. Let's save time, stop this discussion, and start a new one to rename the article to a term that actually conforms to WP:NCE. — Chrisahn (talk) 21:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      It isn't allowed. The request isn't a topic of private interest but merely started a process that has it's course now and is in the domain of the community as a whole. I appreciate your perspective, but there's seven days to go. I think it will result in a move. In either case a subsequent move discussion is not a problem. I adhere to the same policy as you and find no false claim on my part. If we are dealing with a riot, how is this true – Goals: Disrupt, delay, and change the Electoral College vote count in Trump's favor, Capture and destroy the certificates of ascertainment of the Electoral College votes[3], Pressure Congress and Vice President Mike Pence to overturn election of former vice president Joe Biden. That does not a riot make. Or rather it goes way past a riot. It's a matter of preciseness WP:PRECISE. Commonness is not the only criterion. If you have two common descriptors, the one which is more precise is better. Alalch Emis (talk) 22:10, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I wasn't talking about WP:PRECISE. Your claim regarding WP:NCE is simply false – "capitol insurrection" is not the "established common name for this event". So far there is no established common name, but "capitol riot" is currently the most common (and comes closest to being "established"), while "insurrection" is at best in a distant third or fourth place (roughly ten times less common than "riot"). Yes, there are multiple criteria, but since "insurrection" is so clearly the wrong title according to WP:NCE, it doesn't really matter how well it meets other criteria. (By the way, I do think "riot" or "attack" are more WP:PRECISE and WP:NDESC than "insurrection", but that's indeed a matter of opinion to some extent, and I won't get into these issues right now.)
      Anyway. We can't have another move request while this one is open, so I'm afraid we'll have to wait seven days until it fails, and then we can have a new request that meets WP:NCE and has a better chance of succeeding. Well, so be it. As you said, the current name isn't terrible. We can live with it for another 14 days. — Chrisahn (talk) 23:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      P.S. @Alalch Emis: "Either way, this discussion has only a little bit to do with definitions [...], but it has everything to do with the common name" — These are your words. The most common name by far is "capitol riot", so according to your words, that should be the title. Why are we even having this discussion? — Chrisahn (talk) 00:05, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Chrisahn:, @Anachronist:, and@Alalch Emis:, et al: The numbers we've given above are Google's search results for all time. I don't know how to get the count of articles for (say) the last week or last 3 days. When I add "&tbs=qdr:m" (or some other time period), Google no longer reports the number of findings. Does someone know how to get those numbers? Inkwzitv (talk) 01:14, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Inkwzitv: Yeah, I noticed the same thing, to my frustration. It's far more meaningful to get a count of news published in the last 24 hours or even the last week, but the count doesn't appear. I tried other search engines (DuckDuckGo, Ecosia, Bing) and they don't provide hit counts at all. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:25, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Inkwzitv: Good point. https://serpapi.com/playground should work. Set tbm to "News" or "Google Search", and set tbs to "qdr:d" (previous 24 hours) or "qdr:w" (previous week) etc. See total_results in JSON result. Current numbers with "qdr:d" (I also set location to "United States"):
      News search, exact matches (search terms in quotes): "capitol insurrection" 6,930, "insurrection at the capitol" 5,210, "capitol riot" 1,360,000, "capitol riots" 13,400
      News search, inexact matches (without quotes): capitol insurrection 1,140,000, insurrection at the capitol 1,320,000, capitol riot 1,850,000, capitol riots 650,000
      General search, exact matches (search terms in quotes): "capitol insurrection" 635,000, "insurrection at the capitol" 27,700, "capitol riot" 2,050,000, "capitol riots" 824,000
      General search, inexact matches (without quotes): capitol insurrection 7,370,000, insurrection at the capitol 6,840,000, capitol riot 11,200,000, capitol riots 12,000,000 — Chrisahn (talk) 01:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      When I run that Google search, "insurrectionists" appears in the title of the 8th item and in the body of 2 of the earlier ones. Things are fluid there. Inkwzitv (talk) 18:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC) Updated.Inkwzitv (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Sounds like a headline, not a title. Title chosen should make clear that this is an article about an individual event. VQuakr (talk) 18:45, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support There is sufficient evidence to call what transpired on January 6th as an insurrection,especially with the new information coming out,that it was planned Alhanuty (talk) 18:49, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Evidence provided in this thread and further up the page seem to establish "Insurrection" or "Riot" as the common names for the event, more than "storming". Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose I am not sure that the invasion and vandalizing of one building counts as an insurrection. It was a riot, pure and simple.Slatersteven (talk) 19:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      This was not merely entering and vandalizing. What makes it an insurrection is that there was an attempt to kidnap and kill government officials in order to facilitate unconstitutional continuation of the current regime. -- Beland (talk) 20:33, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose I think there's still enough uncertainty and disagreement about whether it was an insurrection that it's better for the title not to pre-judge the question. "Attack" seems like the natural word to use. Like 9/11 attacks. I also agree that the year should be included to make it clear it's talking about a specific event. Binarybits (talk) 19:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Attack in itself is a very unspecific descriptor. When applied to an event consisting of flying planes into buildings, there isn't a specificity/preciseness problem, because there isn't a common more precise term (i could invent "hijack-crashing" on the spot but it isn't common). When applying "attack" to this event, there is a really big problem of this sort, as "attack" could really mean anything. Despite it feeling somewhat natural to go around using more general words and relying on context for the specifics, I don't think that's a useful impulse right now. Alalch Emis (talk) 19:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. It's consistent with the body of reliable references. --Cold Season (talk) 19:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Given that this seems to just be weighing if insurrection is better than storming or not, I am inclined to believe that insurrection is more accurate to use. There is a talk page section detailing reliable sources called The "coup" & "insurrection" discussion. Said section hows support that coup or insurrection could be more accurate. The proposal explains that there are potential issues calling this a coup that do not exist when calling it an insurrection. Given that we have a significant number of reliable sources using a term that does not require worrying above if it failed or succeeded compared to a name that was decided on at the time due to early reports, I believe that insurrection is clearly better than storming especially when WP:COMMONNAME is considered. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:45, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support strongly: as I have consistently, and as increasing numbers of reliable sources have come to characterize the incident in recent days, as more evidence has become available. soibangla (talk) 20:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME: "riot" is easily beating "insurrection" in reliable sources. See this excellent infographic. StAnselm (talk) 20:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Thanks for the link, StAnselm! It's unfortunate that they included fringe sources like Breitbart and Epoch Times but excluded NPR and Huffington Post. As far as I can tell, the latter are the only major outlets who still regularly use the term "insurrection". It would be better to include them in a count, if just to show that even that wouldn't change the outcome: "capitol riot" is the most common name (by a large margin), and "insurrection" isn't even in the top three. — Chrisahn (talk) 20:31, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I think they include the Epoch Times precisely to show that is is a fringe source. StAnselm (talk) 20:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The Epoch Times and Breitbart are listed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources as unreliable, because they have intentionally published falsehoods and conspiracy theories. Epoch Times is a propaganda outlet for Falun Gong. The selection of sources by Visualcapitalist does not follow stats from other sites on the most popular news websites. According to [25] only 38% of Americans get their news from web sites, so more weight should be given to TV, radio, and print sources (though these overlap with web sources). -- Beland (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @StAnselm: Makes sense. Good point. @Beland: I agree that fringe sources like Epoch Times and Breitbart should be excluded from such a count, but it wouldn't change the outcome: "capitol riot" is the most common term (by a large margin). As far as I can tell, "insurrection" isn't even in the top three ("attack" and "siege" are more common). — Chrisahn (talk) 20:55, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chrisahn: Sure, but that count is completely missing mainstream radio, TV, and cable news sources like NPR, NBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, and MSNBC. It's also unclear if these words are used as the name of the event or to describe its component actions or as synonyms after the name has already been used. -- Beland (talk) 01:20, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Beland: Correct. These numbers are just a start. To get a better picture, we'd have to gather our own data. I've counted search results, headlines and occurrences in articles in several (albeit somewhat unsystematic) ways, and I'm pretty sure that a thorough evaluation would show that "capitol riot" is currently the most common term, followed by "attack", with "insurrection" maybe in third or fourth place. — Chrisahn (talk) 02:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    But they use a better word "riot", in the headline. Insurrection, being a crime, shouldn't be used until there has been due process, a trial, etc. Funandtrvl (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Rioting and storming a restricted area are also crimes. Fox News follows the general U.S. media practice of using "allegedly" to avoid implying the guilt of a particular person before trial. It did not use "allegedly" in either case in this article, I assume because it does not attribute any specific act to any specific person. But regardless of whether you prefer "riot" or "insurrection", would you agree that both are neutral, given they are both used by both conservative and liberal leaning media sources? -- Beland (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The news media should have used 'allegedly', but they did not. The term 'riot', in general, is not as 'damning', as the word 'insurrection'. I do not believe that either term is neutral, really. Parsing the words here, for this article, is a difficult choice. Funandtrvl (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps the term has negative or positive connotations depending on the feelings of the reader about the act itself. Some find the insurrection glorious, some find it horrifying. I agree with the editorial judgement of the politically-diverse, reliable-source, professional newsrooms who use "insurrection" as a neutral term without "allegedly". -- Beland (talk) 02:51, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Not an improvement on the current title. “Storming” is a more accurate description of what happened than “insurrection”. After this RM is closed, if someone wants to start an RM for “2021 riot at the United States Capitol”, I would agree with it, and I see that some others here would prefer "riot" as well. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    P.S. The OP says the event meets the definition of “insurrection”. That is incorrect. I recommend that people actually look up Insurrection. It has no article of its own; it is a redirect to “Rebellion”. That article gives one brief definition of “insurrection,” saying “An armed but limited rebellion is an insurrection,[2] and if the established government does not recognize the rebels as belligerents then they are insurgents and the revolt is an insurgency.” Note that according to this classification, an insurgency insurrection is supposed to be “armed”, and the established government is supposed to recognize the rebels as belligerents. The current incident did not meet either of those conditions. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Your parsing of that definition is off the mark. You seem to have misread this part: "...if the established government does not recognize the rebels as belligerents...". Does not recognize. In an insurrection, the government does not recognize the other side as belligerents. What took place was by all accounts an armed and limited rebellion against the United States government. I don't put an emphasis on the armed part but some or many were armed, and there were pipe bombs. Other definitions don't put an emphasis on this part either, but on violence. That excerpt from a WP article is not the best source (not bad either, but not the best) and does not even try to present a ground-up definition of insurrection but derives it, differentially, from rebellion, which is the topic of the article. Alalch Emis (talk) 21:59, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No, yours is off the mark. Please reread the whole phrase you quoted part of. It says, "if the established government does not recognize the rebels as belligerents then they are insurgents and the revolt is an insurgency." Again: when the government does not recognize the other side as belligerents, that is an insurgency. Not an insurrection. If it does recognize the other side as belligerents, then it could be an insurrection according to this definition - but the government did not do that in this case. An insurrection is an armed but limited rebellion where the government does recognize the other side as belligerents. That's not what happened here. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Oops, I see my error: I said "insurgency" when I meant "insurrection" in my first note. Sorry about that. I have fixed it. The bottom line remains: even if you grant the "armed" part, which I hesitate to do, then per the distinction quoted this was an insurgency. It was not an insurrection. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    wikt:insurrection defines it as "A violent uprising of part or all of a national population against the government or other authority." wikt:insurgency defines it as "rebellion; revolt; the state of being insurgent". Neither of these definitions requires "armed", only "violent", though the mob storming the capitol was clearly violent and partially armed, as arrest records show. This event meets both of the Wiktionary definitions. Wikipedia's definitions also leave open the possibility that something can be an "insurrection" and "insurgency" at the same time. -- Beland (talk) 03:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per it's too soon to be worrying about it. It came up as the top google hit, so people can find the article as it is titled now. Let some time past to see how news sources converge on describing it. NE Ent 21:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose: The proposed name expresses a judgmental POV and gives the impression of a more organized rebellion than is accurate for the actions of this confused and disorganized mob. — BarrelProof (talk) 21:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per WP:NPOV and WP:COMMONNAME, for reasons already stated. In my personal opinion the current name is satisfactory; the determination of whether the event constitutes an "insurrection" is something for the US justice system to decide, regardless of reporting on the subject. AlexKitfox (talk) 22:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Charges of sedition have been filed so I think it's pretty clear that this could qualify as an insurrection. Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 00:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The Congress has already decided to call the event as an insurrection in the Article of Impeachment. Z22 (talk) 01:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: can someone who supports this change provide me with a reliable source that this is the unique insurrection at the Capitol to date? For instance, this edit claims that the U.S. Capitol has been occupied six previous times to this incident; so what makes us so confident this is the first insurrection? Absent such a source, we would need to add "2021" or some unique identifier to the proposed title. — Bilorv (talk) 22:35, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Here you go, use Ctrl+F "Capitol". None of the included incidents were an insurrection, nor do they remotely resemble an insurrection. Simply: nothing like this has ever happened before. Alalch Emis (talk) 22:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - If I may plagiarize from my statement in Archive 1, numerous people in the "storming" discussion had spoken about this title, myself included. It's the most accurate. It's not a "storming" because most people are interested in staying outside, whether peacefully or not, and of those people, indeed, there are many who have chosen to remain peaceful. Insurrection will not force those who are not being violent to be included with those who are. My proposal: mention in-article the division, that there are a small group of the "protest" who have turned the effort into an insurrection, though they are just that, a small group within. LegendoftheGoldenAges85, Team  M  (talk | worse talk) 23:21, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support as per Alalch Emis. Edouard d'Erasme (talk) 23:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Oppose: Insurrection is better than Storming. The word insurrection is defined as a violent uprising against an authority or government. Insurrection is a concise, accurate, NPOV word that best describes the event. Insurrection is the wording used in the impeachment article associated with this event. 2021 in the title is not necessary and will not likely be necessary years and decades from now. Jared.h.wood (talk) 23:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    UPDATE: Changing to oppose per WP:COMMONNAME arguments that 'Riot' would be better. If used, 'riot' is general enough that the year would be important to include. I support 2021 United States Capitol riot Jared.h.wood (talk) 00:27, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly Support - Everything that has come out since the event has pointed to it being an insurrection. The definition of the word is met, with citizens rebelling against the seat of the U.S. Government to prevent it from conducting business. The event was being called an insurrection on the House and Senate floors after order was restored, and government officials continued describing it as an insurrection over the following days. Also, Trump was impeached for "Incitement of Insurrection," further defining the event as an insurrection. CheeseburgerWithFries (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: in restricting the choices between "storming" and "insurrection", this RM is heading towards being a classic candidate for a move review. Lots of people are opposing on the basis that "riot" is better, but lots of people are supporting on the basis that both "riot" and "insurrection" are better than "storming". So - is the closer free to move it to "riot"? If not, it would seem that the obvious argument at WP:Move review is that "riot" is actually the most favored option. Why was it arbitrarily excluded from the premise of the discussion? StAnselm (talk) 23:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I did not exclude it perfidiously it to wrest it out of the picture. I did what I thought was the best in terms of procedural and material policy, and with mind to physical constraints, knowing that this section can't ever be "succinct" in the slightest which is very important for the people who will do the heroic task of closing this. Adding Option A (insurrection) and Option B (riot) would have added a lot of extra weight, and probably have led to formatting and length issues as more protracted micro-discussions and "Comments" would emerge. This is more structured and cleaner. Kind regards from the OP Alalch Emis (talk) 00:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You didn't need to provide specific options. But what makes this a poor (i.e. MR-worthy) RM is that you said "Please only advocate in the form of "Support" or "Oppose" without suggesting alternatives." That is not how we usually do RMs. StAnselm (talk) 02:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Strongly - "Storming" is a perfectly apt term and was used extensively throughout the event on live news, as well as long after the event was over. Besides that fact, it is evokes the correct image for the reader. You don't hear people use the term "insurrection" in regards to failed insurrections. That's why the news has clarified their statements with "attempted insurrection" or "wannabe insurrectionists" when describing the rioters. "Storming" is far more apt, and the event has been logged in public consciousness as the Storming of the Capitol. WP:COMMONNAME and all that jazz. RobotGoggles (talk) 23:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      If you look at List of revolutions and rebellions, the terms "rebellion", "revolution", "revolt", "uprising", and "insurrection" are all in use. I don't hear people on the street saying any of these things, because they are relatively rare in modern U.S. history compared to the many political protests and movements. The dictionary definition of revolution implies success, but insurrection does not. The Wikipedia list includes both successful attempts, like the Wilmington insurrection of 1898, but mostly unsuccessful events like Łódź insurrection, Razlovtsi insurrection, and the 1733 slave insurrection on St. John. While I do see some stories using the term "attempted insurrection", many stories describe it as an insurrection that has in fact happened, even if there was a failed attempt at overturning, overthrowing, or pulling off a revolution or coup. Given the dictionary definition, "attempted insurrection" seems like an over-correction error. See for example [27] [28] and [29] that do not use "attempted". -- Beland (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support: I already made this comment on a different thread but putting it here for completeness. I think the word insurrection is now used everywhere. The list of examples can be seen on that thread.[30]
    My key support is that an important reliable source is from the Congress itself. The Article of Impeachment describes the event as an insurrection which had 4 elements in it:[31][32]
    • Beaching and vandalizing of the Capitol
    • Injuring and killed law enforcement personnel
    • Menacing the Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel
    • Engaging in other violent, deadly, destructive and seditious acts
    I think the word breaching is similar to the current word "storming" that is used as the title. That is just one element of the overall event in which it is known in the article as an "insurrection". By leaving the title to just one element of the event, it may not capture the overall picture of what it is. Many reliable sources (including a key reliable source from the Congress which will be used in studies in the future) now describe the overall event as an insurrection instead of just as the "storming" part of it. Z22 (talk) 00:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The Article of Impeachment describes the event as an insurrection This is the best argument I have seen yet for "insurrection". -- MelanieN (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Since the article of impeachment was written with firm political and legal goals – rather the opposite of WP:NPOV – this could be seen as an argument against using "insurrection" here... — Chrisahn (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Let's not beat around the bush about this. This impeachment, just like the three other presidential impeachments in U.S. history, as well as every single decision made by the House or the Senate, was of a political nature. It's why anyone could've been confident that the articles would pass the Democratic-held House, and why myself and many others are willing to predict that the articles will not pass the Republican-led (soon-to-be Democratic-led)[a] Senate with the 2/3 vote necessary. Taking the wording of the articles at face value as necessarily factually true is to accept the House's premise (and, notably, not the Senate's), which in WP:WIKIVOICE we cannot due. It's why the article on Bill Clinton doesn't say definitively that he perjured or obstructed justice—those are legal definitions that need to be settled in court. The impeachment vote is merely the opinion of whoever's lucky enough to be the ruling party. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 09:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    1. ^ Well, technically, tied, including independents Angus King and Bernie Sanders as Democrats, with Vice President Kamala Harris, acting as president of the Senate, as tiebreaker.
    • Support because of how commonly "insurrection" is used in sources; I have seen few use the word "storming" as a common name for the event, but many use the word "insurrection" Nekomancerjade (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose: "insurrection" isn't neutral. It implies that all the rioters had the intention to overthrow Congress, which I believe is false.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - I made the earlier successful requested move to the present title (from the earlier "protests"), but I am not wedded to the title at all, and the usage in the reliable sources has shifted decidedly to "insurrection" — e.g.:
    • Washington Post today: "the wake of the Capitol insurrection"
    • NYT yesterday: "found to have aided the insurrection"
    • AP yesterday: "an insurrection meant to stop [Biden's] ascension to power."
    • WSJ a few days ago: "the insurrection at the Capitol" (also uses "storming of the Capitol last week by a pro-Trump mob" and "the riots")
    Sure, riots, siege, and storming are all used to some degree in the RS, and each could be decent titles (they all refer to the same event and are used interchangeably within source material), but "insurrection" seems the best fit here. Neutralitytalk 02:00, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The usage has actually shifted decidedly to "riot"; "capitol riot" is between 2 and 200 times (depending on how we count) more common than "capitol insurrection". See numbers above. — Chrisahn (talk) 02:15, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, the word "insurrection" in the NYT pieces is only used when either quoting someone else directly, or continuing discussion of that quote. For all "NYT voice" references, they use the word "riot". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 02:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Two of the four links you posted use the term "Riot" in the headline, zero use inssurection. You're cherry-picking. Miserlou (talk) 16:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I think using raw counting is one measure, but when a reliable source started to define a news section as "Insurrection at the Capitol" (see [33]), that should give a weight. Z22 (talk) 02:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I would not oppose renaming with attack or riot(s), but insurrection is undeniably the wrong word to use here. Dylanvt (talk) 21:41, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Those events are not similar at all. Except for the the Macedonian example, which is indeed a storming of the legislature, and is more of a real storming than the subject of this article. However it was not an insurrection – the goal there was to cause a ruckus and beat up some politicians. There was no constitutionally interesting aspect to it. Also all those articles you came up with are Start-Class or unrated and are not authoritative for anything. Ultimately, this discussion is not about how "storming" is bad and unusable language that can't be applied to a storming. That's just missing the point altogether. Alalch Emis (talk) 06:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    How exactly is the Storming of the Venezuelan National Congress, for example, "not similar at all" (or the 2017 Venezuelan National Assembly attack for that matter, which uses "attack" instead of "storming", which I think would also be better than "insurrection" in this case)? In the case of the Storming of the Venezuelan National Congress, protestors outside were angered, became a mob, tried to enter the National Congress and were repelled by guards. 4 people were killed: the vice president and three MPs. This sounds very similar to me.
    In any event most of the (very few) articles that have "insurrection" in their titles involve hundreds or thousands of casualties, and militaries, which doesn't seem to describe this at all. You could perhaps, at best (or at worst?), call it the 2021 attempted insurrection at the United States Capitol. Dylanvt (talk) 17:50, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose The guiding principle is WP:COMMONNAME and there is little evidence in this discussion that the proposed name is the most common name. (I'm not sure that the current name is the most common one, either, but it's the status quo and it's not egregiously wrong.) The close of the previous discussion explicitly noted that COMMONNAME is the guiding principle so it's frustrating that it's scarcely referenced in this discussion (and not at all in the opener's statement!). Gwennie-nyan and others are correct that this event is still developing and whatever clarity will emerge is still emerging; I suspect that it may crystalize as further charges are filed and some progress to trial which will take several months at least. Finally, it's very disturbing and annoying that the opener of this discussion is attempting to limit the discussion and the options of other editors; this is not only inappropriate but also counterproductive. (I'm not watching this article so please ping me directly if you'd like a reply from me.) ElKevbo (talk) 05:24, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose and Procedural Close The article was recently renamed and there should be a 30 day moratorium on RM requests. We cannot constantly be having RM discussions over and over again. The previous consensus should stand for at least 30 days. Also, the proposed title is not WP:CONCISE. Octoberwoodland (talk) 05:30, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no such thing as this moratorium you speak of. It takes more effort to stifle an open and substantive discussion than that. The proposed title has fewer characters than the current title and fewer syllables than "Twenty twenty one storming of the United States Capitol" Alalch Emis (talk) 05:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It's disruptive having RM discussions every few hours, also your proposed title in addition to not being WP:CONCISE is also not WP:PRECISE either. "Insurrection" is too vague without the year. "The Trump Insurrection" is both precise and concise. I would support that title but not the one you proposed for the reasons stated. Octoberwoodland (talk) 07:50, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    What's disruptive is your "procedural close" on something that will most obviously never be procedurally closed. Alalch Emis (talk) 20:27, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It needs to be 6-month moratorium for moving this article in order to ensure that the stability of the article. 118.96.188.169 (talk) 08:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly oppose How could 8,000 unarmed rebel against a nation of a population of 328,000,000 ? A protest gone out of control or insurrection or uprising ? It is growing to a unencyclopedic war of words. The storming is what happened; insurrection or more, adds a political rating. --Robertiki (talk) 07:04, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • The relative numbers of people involved are irrelevant. Not all insurrections succeed, or could even plausibly succeed, but that doesn't stop some people from doing it anyway. That said, forcing a change in national government does not require fighting 328 million people. Many coups have succeeded, at least in the short term, by killing national leaders with a small number of fighters. "Storming" is just entering a building or area quickly, by force. "Insurrection" is certainly a political act, but the mob, some of whom were armed, did not storm the Capitol just in order to vandalize it for fun. They had the explicit political goal of forcing Congress to unconstitutionally certify Trump as the winner of the 2020 election. They were shouting that Vice President Mike Pence should be hanged, and even erected a noose. Had they been more determined and killed a substantial number of members of Congress, they could have changed the balance of power in the federal government after the riot was suppressed and governors appointed replacements not necessarily of the same party. -- Beland (talk) 03:23, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    With such a large difference of numbers ? I agree that, if there is internal help (which looks not the case), a thousand armed people would make the difference, but unarmed need a really bigger support, like the 100,000 at Wisconsin in 2011 (and that changed the status). More over, from the videos I don't hear chants asking for killing anybody. The fact that someone talked (mostly on blogs, for what I understand, of killing or hanging does not mean it was the crowd intention, like you suggested in a insurrection. And that crowd did not act like a mob (please look at videos of the real mobs acts), not more than at BLM protests. Simply stating disappointment at the Congress members or pressing them to change position, is not a insurrection, otherwise, what should it be about 2011 Wisconsin protests on 20 February 2011 ? --Robertiki (talk) 18:29, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    A comment on this: the crowd absolutely did call for killing Mike Pence—it did not come from the blogosphere. Here's audio of the event: they literally chant "hang Mike Pence" several times. As for the point on there being "internal help," whether by members of Congress or police, prominent individuals have already alleged that there was, which is currently being followed by reporting and investigations, and could then potentially culminate in political or legal action. That situation is currently developing, but I certainly don't think there's enough to say it doesn't look like the case at this time. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 09:35, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Like others have said this title sounds like a headline and does not include the year. Riots would be a better option than the proposed naming but even the current title is widely reported. JayJayWhat did I do? 07:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support with the caution that this might need a date attached at some later point should it become the first of more than one attempt. After all, there were three Russian Revolutions. That the first two did not succeed does not make them irrelevant. We do not yet know that this will be the only insurrection. WordwizardW (talk) 10:31, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly Oppose - There are several false statements by the OP above:
    "This is the big RM that people have been waiting for, for the past week or so." No: The consensus of editors in the discussions above is to wait. "If you think a very close variant of the above such as "United States Capitol insurrection" is better, type "Support". A bold editor, or a subsequent technical move process will take care of this detail." No: Any tittle change would require another formal requested move. "Policy statement: WP:NCE, there is an established common name for this event, based on "where" (United States Capitol) and "what" (Insurrection). The differences in the exact phrasing of the common name variants are neutral and unimportant." " "Riot", "breach", "siege", "attack", "assault", "invasion" are inadequate for not meeting the above standards either partially or at all." No: The phrasing of the title is very important and again it is falsely asserted that 'insurrection' is the common name. 'Attack' and 'Riot' are the most commonly used terms by sources. (Per my Google news searches above, another editor's search in this section and the Associated Press article below) Riot? Insurrection? Words matter in describing Capitol siege By DAVID BAUDER Associated Press [[34]] "The use of “riot” as a descriptor is almost universally accepted, even though the word has become fraught with racial connotations and despite the relatively gradual way the story unfolded." "The near unanimity came despite riot sometimes being a loaded term, and a subject of debate for how it was applied last summer to unrest following George Floyd’s death and Black Lives Matter protests." "In its coverage, the Times has called it a “mob attack,” “deadly riot” and “violent assault,” and said Trump supporters “laid siege” to the Capitol. The Post has talked of a “horde of rioters” and “terrifying attack.” Another criteria for article titles is being 'recognisable.' The following quotes from the Associated Press article shows that 'insurrection' fails to meet this: "The coverage has sent Americans scurrying to the dictionary and news organizations carefully considering terminology." "The past week has brought phrases not commonly seen into use. One is insurrection." "Merriam-Webster said the top words looked up in its online dictionary on Wednesday were: insurrection, fascism, impeach and sedition." Another title criteria is 'naturalness' - per the above, not even close. As to procedure, it is confusing to have discussions in 4-5 sections and a WP:RM du jour. On a lighter note, #Trumpsurrection hashtag is now on Twitter ;) "It's not a "protest." Call it what it is: A Trumpsurrection. A violent revolt by white supremacists defending a con-man's ego. That is literally what this is." Trumpsurrection - Urban Dictionary: "The end of the line for the worst president in recorded history; no further delusionary explanation required." Stay healthy! Best, IP75 (talk) 10:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The reader should be advised that you deleted my following reply from the talk page and I am entering it again: /<- it's of no import/ There was no consensus to wait. If there are several people who want to wait, and they say "wait", the people who don't agree won't say "no let's not wait, let's act", they will simply act. Everyone is entitled to act in ways which don't contravene policy and doesn't need to get permission from person xyz and get into protracted discussions with them just because they said "wait". Therefore, only the "wait" group's opinions on this matter will be visible, and the "act" group will be sporadically visible through their actions. This can lead someone to believe there is consensus to "wait" where there is nothing of the sort. To believe so is naive, and shows a lack of sense for the broader process. As for the rest of your post, you misquoted me. Alalch Emis (talk) 20:25, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: Regarding "The reader should be advised...": I'm sure you meant no harm, but I think you went against WP:TPO when you moved IP75's comment. Your response was lost when IP75 restored the original version. Also without ill intent. Anyway, you restored your response, so all is well now. Take care! — Chrisahn (talk) 22:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I followed the "Sectioning" guideline of that policy explicitly but failed to cite the policy which was probably unwise. I took the remark back. The intent was purely positive, and I gave the section a somewhat favorable title. Thanks and all the best. Alalch Emis (talk) 00:23, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    — 5440orSleep (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • I skimmed that article, but don't see anywhere that says the Wisconsin capitol building was seized. Am I missing something? -- Beland (talk) 19:39, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Beland: A couple of quotes: "By February 20, protestors had undertaken a physical occupation of the Capitol building..."; "...after occupation of the Capitol for more than two weeks..."; "The crowds grew to thousands, surging into the Capitol. Police did not attempt to remove them." See the article for details. As far as I can tell, "seizure of the capitol" is a reasonable description. 5440orSleep's claim "a more direct threat to the process of constitutional government" appears to be quite wrong though – there was little violence, no one was killed, no lawmakers had to hide from attackers. — Chrisahn (talk) 23:28, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Current title is a little clunky, but it usually takes awhile for a common name to settle for major events and it's not currently nor is it likely to ever be "insurrection". I wouldn't say that's a wholly incorrect word, but it's certainly a reactionary one. Thadeuss (talk) 14:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Current title is closer to NPoV. While many sources do use the phrase "Insurrection", it's not unanimous -- so us using it would be undue. The current title would also be closer to WP:COMMONNAME. — Czello 15:05, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Czello If the words in the title don't naturally gel with the prominent words in the content in how strong a language is used, then the burden of NPoV is merely shifted from the name to the content (or vice versa), creating an uncomfortable disbalance where the content doesn't meet the expectations set by the title, and the language of the article begins to look off: suspicious, judgmental, etc. The function of NPoV is thus undermined. As things stand now, there is a significant desync, because: how does "storming" match Methods: ... shootings ... tactics of terrorism (attempted bombings, ... intention to take hostages, kidnap and execute) (I could cite half the infobox here)? Those words are much stronger language, and there's a whole aggregation of them. "Insurrection" is much more flexible and creates some breathing room for that inescapably harsh language, while not being all that strong. That means that "insurrection" brings the whole article (title + content) closer to NPoV. Therefore "insurrection" is better with regard to NPoV. Alalch Emis (talk) 02:13, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: Yes, the words in the title should be consistent with the the text. That's why the title should not be "insurrection", but "riot" or "attack". The word "riot" appears over 220 times in the article (including ca. 90 times "rioter"); "attack": ca. 50 times; "insurrection": ca. 40 times (including ca. 10 times "insurrectionist"). That's a five to one ratio of "riot" vs. "insurrection". (The ratio in WP:RS is similar, maybe higher.) The first sentence says "...a riot and violent attack...", and that has been the consensus for about a week now. Words like "coup" or "insurrection" were inserted into the first sentence a few times, but they were reverted quickly. Putting "insurrection" into the title would create exactly the "uncomfortable disbalance" you mention. — Chrisahn (talk) 05:19, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, you see how many mentions of "insurrection" there are in the article? Precisely that is one factor of disbalance (and only one of many), because if you're reading an article titled using "storming" or "riot" why should you expect to see "insurrection(ist)" anywhere in wikiwoice? There should be precisely 0 such uses in wikivoice. On the other hand, if you have "insurrection" as a title, it's perfectly valid and reasonable to have as many uses of "riot" because riots are a natural component or precursor to an insurrection. This is the simplest set theory problem. "Insurrection" is tonally apt for all those words, it takes them in no problem, and "Storming" spits many of them out, as does "Riot"; particularly the quoted part of the infobox and other prominent (valid) dramatic language regarding threat to life, terror tactics and constitutional calamity. The NPoV of those prominent elements of the page is in question as long as the NPoV burden is unduly shifted onto them, while the conveniently neutered title carries none. That's a cop-out and won't work in the long run. It will cause degradation in the page as people will chip away at the small bits of strong (and 100% valid) language to intuitively "fix" this disbalance. Alalch Emis (talk) 06:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: Your reasoning is flawed in several ways.
    1. if you're reading an article titled using "storming" or "riot" why should you expect to see "insurrection(ist)" – An article titled "riot" can of course contain the term "insurrection(ist)" in the text, just like an article titled "attack" can use the term "terror(ist)". Our article on 9/11 is titled September 11 attacks, not September 11 terror attacks.
    2. riots are a natural component or precursor to an insurrection – No, they aren't. Insurrections often occur without any riots, and most insurrections last much longer and are more organized (and often more clandestine) than riots. For example, see Insurrection of 10 August 1792; Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882; Yên Thế Insurrection; Norte Grande insurrection; Anarchist insurrection of Alt Llobregat; 1971 JVP insurrection; 1987–1989 JVP insurrection; and many others.
    3. This is the simplest set theory problem – No, it's not. We're talking about empirical and linguistic questions, not mathematics or pure logic. Neither "riot" nor "insurrection" has a precise intensional or extensional definition that everyone agrees on. Neither term includes all instances of the other.
    4. conveniently neutered – As many others have pointed out, neither "riot" nor "insurrection" are neutral terms. But "insurrection" tends to have more positive connotations than "riot". For example, the American Revolutionary War is sometimes called War of the Insurrection. I guess the mob of January 6 would actually prefer calling it an "insurrection" rather than a "riot".
    5. people will chip away at the small bits of strong (and 100% valid) language – That's unfounded speculation. Many WP:RS use "insurrection" to refer to the events of January 6, and that won't change, so we won't have a problem keeping words like "insurrection" in the article. But currently "Capitol riot" is the WP:COMMONNAME (more precisely: it's the most common name by far), and thus the best title. — Chrisahn (talk) 17:40, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I strongly second the points made here by Chrisahn. Dylanvt (talk) 21:36, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    We aren't obligated to remain neutral. We are obligated to call it what others are calling it.
    We have to specify that it is the United States Capitol - the United States has instigated far more insurrections in foreign capitols throughout the cold war. Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:55, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yet, none of them are called capitols. Kindly check your information first. Walrus Ji (talk) 10:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    [Meta discussion moved to User talk:Chrisahn ]--Walrus Ji (talk) 08:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. In reliable sources, "riot" and "attack" and even "siege" appear to be beating "insurrection". I made a table below by looking through the Google results (headlines and clicking through body text) of some perennial ones. Feel free to add on to it.
    AP Quite mixed, with common labels being "Capitol attack", "Capitol riot", and "Capitol siege".
    BBC Clear coalescence around "Capitol riots" or "Capitol riot".
    The Guardian Use of both "Capitol riot" and "Capitol attack".
    NYTimes Use of both "Capitol riot" and "Capitol attack". Article category is named "Capitol Riot Fallout".
    Reuters Quite mixed, with common labels being "Capitol attack", "Capitol riot", and "Capitol siege".
    WashPo Use of "Capitol riot".
    "Storming" and "breach" seem to be the universal terms for the actual breaking-in part of these events. Based on these results, "2021 United States Capitol riot" would be my personal suggestion for a future RM. — Goszei (talk) 05:33, 18 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]
    Goszei Thank you for providing WP:RS. However, your list is not complete. I know that CNN is now generally (or at least frequently) calling it an insurrection.[35][36]. Two of their first three special reports had insurrection in the title.S2021 E1 1/10/2021S2021 E3 1/16/2021. I'd like to see a more complete list--especially from those who say it should be called an insurrection. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That claim does not appear to be true: see [37], which is the same search that I applied above. As appears to be the case with every RS that I linked, CNN uses "insurrection" sometimes, but less frequently than "riot". — Goszei (talk) 07:41, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree CNN often uses the word "riot" as well, sometimes interchangeably in the same reporting, and they have used other words like "attack." I believe they originally did not use insurrection as much, but have moved in that direction as more information came in about the rioters, who helped, how much they knew, what they planned to do [e.g. kill legislators], etc. Please keep in mind, I'm basing my determination on CNN's reporting more on what I have heard from watching a number of hours of CNN each day for the last few days, rather than from Google searches. Also, I'm a little more partial to insurrection as it seems more descriptive of the facts. This was not just random mayhem--the violence was directed at elected legislators. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This comparison has excluded titles containing only "Capitol", without "US" ("US Capitol"), and is not very representative because all "at the Capitol" forms are thus excluded. If one searches for "at the Capitol" separately, he sees that insurrection fares much better. — Alalch Emis (talk) 13:06, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose As others have stated, there is no uniform description of what happened at the Capitol as "insurrection." It has variously been referred to as a protest, a riot, a coup, sedition, insurrection, and other terms. "Storming" is a neutral description of the action that took place, without the risk of violationg NPOV by putting politically charged langauge in the title. Whether it was one or more of these things is better discussed in the lede and body of the article, which it is in sufficient detail. TempDog123 (talk) 09:14, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose using non-neutral / jugmental terms like "insurrection". Wikipedia is not a court to pronounce verdicts. Ghirla-трёп- 11:50, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support The main thing this event will be remembered for long into the future was the historic second impeachment of a US president. The charge was incitement of insurrection. The second biggest thing this will be remembered for is the occupation of the offices of the Speaker of the House and search for the Vice President by the mob, for which insurrection is the best descriptor. Riot may be a good genus description of the type of thing that happened, but insurrection is a more specific species. Not all riots, mobs, or attacks are conducted with the purpose of hunting down government officials acting in their official capacity. That's an insurrection. Univremonster (talk) 15:25, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Basing a decision on what you think the event "will be remembered for long into the future" sounds like the exact definition of WP:CRYSTALBALL. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 10:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per nom; "Insurrection" is better than "storming". I'm sure we'll have another round of discussion as soon as this one closes. I'm currently undecided if "riot" vs. "insurrection" is better, which I expect will be the subject of the next discussion. (Unrelated: "capitol riot" would have been a good name for a punk band up until this year.)-Ich (talk) 15:52, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose, I think the current title is the most accurate of all the suggestions, everything else is politcal language in either direction, as is the intention of this move. Prevelance in media is not an encyclopedic metric. Miserlou (talk) 16:25, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per Neutrality. The initial appearance was indeed of a disorganized mob riot, but that is now an outdated view. As more information comes out, we're learning it was partially well-organized and planned insurrection, using vandalism, violence, hostage taking, and killing as means toward the goal of overturning the legitimate election result. -- Valjean (talk) 17:56, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong support per Valjean's comment directly above mine, and Alalch Emis' excellent points. Jonmaxras (talk) 18:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note: User:Chrisahn seems to have taken it upon himself and is actively striking off comments that he does not like. He is neither an admin nor has any basis to do that. Accordingly I have reverted him. Others might want to keep a check on his actions on this thread. --Walrus Ji (talk) 18:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    [Meta discussion moved to User talk:Chrisahn ]--Walrus Ji (talk) 08:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - I believe there is too much disagreement about what this event should be called among reliable sources, but "riot" is used frequently above all else and is an accurate assessment of what occurred, without any other connotations. I would support "2021 United States Capitol riot" per Goszei, or keeping the current name. Spengouli (talk) 19:32, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. It was a deadly and violent mob, that hunted down members of Congress and the Vice President and had the means to kidnap and kill them, that blocked Congress from fulfilling a constitutional mandate for the transition of power, and that forced the deployment of the National Guard. —Jade Ten (talk) 19:43, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per WP:RS, wording mentions by Ish and Valjean, and arguments by Alalch. IHateAccounts (talk) 19:46, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. I would prefer the current title, as it is more WP:NPOV. And per the frequency analyses in Chrisahn's comment, StAnselm's comment, and Goszei's comment, insurrection doesn't seem to be WP:COMMONNAME anyway. If the RM suggestion were "riot" instead, I would probably support. I would also be fine with leaving it as "storming". -- Ununseti (talk) 20:00, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per above. 71.190.95.85 (talk) 20:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong support per the actions in the event and the textbook definition. While many articles may not use insurrection, TV media and social media have vastly used "insurrection" to describe the events. Additionally, "storming" is too general and vague to use for the event. Storming could be used for many types of situations, whereas "insurrection" clearly identifies the situation based on the specific circumstances of the event, as well as the purpose and intent of the instigators.2601:580:4301:7730:3821:9F32:293E:68C0 (talk) 22:20, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support An insurrection is defined as "a violent uprising against an authority or government" which would make that an accurate descrption of this event.JoeyLyles (talk) 22:24, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose The Storm is probably just a nickname for Stormfront. Insurrection is to "big", about 300 people entered the Capitol Building. "2021 United States Capitol riot" per Goszei and StAnselm.--217.234.65.18 (talk) 22:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. The term "insurrection" is correctly applied to the actions of certain groups of people during this event; however, the term does not properly generalize to the whole event. Those who entered the Capitol were certainly participating in a violent riot, and are reasonably assumed to have been united in the desire to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. However, in the absence of evidence that the mob as a whole acted with the primary intent, or acted under the sole direction of those with the intent, to depose the US government or take any effective action to overturn the election, it is not strictly accurate to characterize the storming of the Capitol itself as an insurrection. The term "riot," which is used frequently in the article, encompasses both the insurrection that took place during the storming as well as the other aspects of this event that fall within the scope of this article. Eigenhector (talk) 22:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    3. Accurate. This was "a violent uprising against an authority or government." Remember, wikipedia does not Wikipedia:CENSOR. 4. Given the connection of "storm" to QAnon, title is not Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. See storm Casprings (talk) 22:54, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    How does point four not go against point three? You say WP doesn't censor, and then recommend changing the title anyway to appease a bunch of conspiracy nuts. IMO, you're giving a WP:FRINGE belief WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 11:03, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Many RS have used the term "insurrection," along with members of Congress of both parties. The "storming" wording is awkward and does not fully capture the nature of the events. PrimaPrime (talk) 00:07, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support —Ooligan (talk) 00:50, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Current title is fine and NPOV. Others have marshalled sufficient evidence that "insurrection" is not in fact so widely used as to qualify as a "name" for common name purposes. It is narrower and definitely worse as a description than the current title. Srnec (talk) 01:16, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. The rule of thumb that should be followed here in determining the name of an article is which, of the suggested names, is the simpler and the less convoluted of the names suggested. The current title, in my view, meets that condition. Perhaps, though, a Redirect can still be used under the alternate name here suggested, directing its reader to this article. BTW: The word "insurrection" means simply "rebellion," and usually implies rebellion against a state or government. Therefore, having this word used in connection to a specific place (e.g. at the US Capitol) seems a bit awkward in its usage. Davidbena (talk) 01:43, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd like reply to your last point: That is the reason why "Insurrection at X" is better than "X insurrection. The former underlines that it's indeed an insurrection against the government, that happened in one very distinct place, and "X insurrection" confers a moer vague relationship between the two parts of the name and doesn't get this point across so well. But "X insurrection" is still okay. Alalch Emis (talk) 04:54, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Greater impetus for name change after impeachment charges, and "storming" doesn't seem right. Something like "Trump supporter insurrection" might be preferable. Drsmoo (talk) 04:18, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Per above. --87.16.159.58 (talk) 05:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak Support given that this is the only time in history this has happened, and hopefully given it won't happen in the near future, I would support this title change, especially removing the year in which it happened. Other than that I would actually be pretty neutral on the subject. CaffeinAddict (talk) 06:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak Oppose I agree that "Storming" is the wrong title, but I too feel that "Riot" is the more common name. Can we have some sort of poll between these two options? --LordPeterII (talk) 07:39, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • tentative Support per sources above and based on how I have seen CNN cover it, including my reasoning above here. CNN generally (or at least frequently) now calls it an insurrection both in titles and in their live coverage.[38][39] Two of their first three special reports had insurrection in the title.S2021 E1 1/10/2021,S2021 E3 1/16/2021. I'm less familiar with the other sources. I would like to see a more complete list in tables.
    I prefer "United States Capitol insurrection" to the long-winded versions per Muboshgu. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:52, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • comment: Why is the initial request so verbose? I didn't read all of that. Alalch Emis appears to be a new editor (in terms of edit counts). I would advise him/her to look at other move requests. It may be too late bring this one down to size. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:52, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: The final paragraph of the lead section states that the events have been described as various things, including insurrection. However, the impeachment of Trump for "incitement of insurrection" implies that the government has recognized the events as an insurrection, so I don't really know. I suggest maybe "2020 occupation of the United States Capitol"? ToQ100gou! ToQ100gou! Shupatsu Shinkou! (the chitter-chatter) 08:34, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly Support: The word "storming" is inaccurate for this event, because it does not fully capture its scope. The event's purpose was not merely the unauthorized entry into the Capitol, but to pressure members of Congress into overturning the 2020 election results [40], and potentially to harm Vice President Pence and non-complying members of Congress [41]. The prefix "2021" in the article title also implies this event either has happened before (it hasn't) or will happen again (which no one can predict). I strongly support the move. Radio Adept (talk) 09:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neutral with a hat tip to Eigenhector. There is a very important point most people are not addressing at all. The fact of the matter is, neither "storming" nor "insurrection" fully encompasses the entirety of what occurred. There were protests outside leading up to the event, such as the one Alex Jones led, or the group Trump told to "fight like hell." While several of those people did storm, insurrect, riot, loot, vandalize, trespass, etc., not all did. This is a major distinction here, which if we're not careful could veer into libelous territory from those involved. I participated in a similar (albeit much more microcosmic) version of this debate earlier, over who to include as a "participant" in the event (called a "storming" by the article both then and now) in the template, with the conclusion being that people who were reported as being present but not within the Capitol complex itself, like Jones or Justin Hill, can not be labeled as participants in a "storming." The same would still hold true for an "insurrection." As the title stands, and as it would stand even if this move is granted, the article is not allowed to fully address the entirety of the event beyond a "storming" or "insurrection," because it will become pigeonholed by the title itself. A better title is needed, though, to be clear, I'm not sure that what that title would be. As for the current debate—between "storming" or "insurrection"—I am indifferent, but would like to vocalize a nuanced viewpoint. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 10:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly Oppose: Looking at Google search results, Attack comes back with the highest at 119 million [42], Riot comes back with 107 million [43], Insurrection with 55 million [44], and Storming with 24 million [45] -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 12:15, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose While many of the Trump supporters may have desired insurrection, not all of them did. "Storming" is the larger term that includes both the insurrection element and the general mayhem, rioting and clueless trespassing. NotBartEhrman (talk) 15:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Isn't really a major storming when most of the protestors were outside and only a select few were actually inside, sure it was rather chaotic at its peak but the majority was alright with most of the deaths being accidental rather than intentionally, + shouldnt this be also considered for the BLM Riot in D.C in May? Storming is a more appropriate title anyways. SuperSkaterDude45 (talk) 16:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose at least at this time. Others have made it clear with their detailed and very clear analyses that there is no overarchingly common name at this point. As such, we should remain at the most neutral title possible, of which either "storming", "riot", or "attack" would qualify, until such time if insurrection becomes the clear common name. I will note that a majority of support votes here are based more in personal opinion (and/or original research) than in policy or analysis of common-ness of the names. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 16:45, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Terrorists

    Why are we not calling it a terrorist attack like it was?

    Terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

    That's exactly what happened. CTF83! 14:13, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    We go by what reliable sources say. David O. Johnson (talk) 14:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    how many sources do we need? CTF83! 15:31, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    See #RFC: Should this event be characterized as terrorism? — Chrisahn (talk) 15:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    It is indeed characterized as domestic terrorism, but, being the racist country that we are, the USA generally reserves "terrorism" for acts by foreign, especially arabic, persons. That's not right, but that's the way it is. We are so primitive and F###ing far behind the rest of the world. In spite of this, the American intelligence community are agreed that right-wing white supremacist domestic terrorism is the greatest threat to American security, so there should be enough RS to justify that we use "terrorism" in this article. Sedition is a form of domestic terrorism, and the attack on the Capitol is described as sedition. -- Valjean (talk) 00:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2021 (2)

    Edit: Change "carried out by a mob of supporters of U.S. President Donald Trump in an attempt to overturn his defeat in the 2020 presidential election." to "carried out by a mob of protestors dressed to appear like Trump supporters, led by John Sullivan, who has ties to Antifa through his Insurgence USA. References: John Sullivan, and the party of the mob that he was with, are NOT supporters of Trump, so that invalidates what had been written in this article. And this is NOT the first time he and Insurgence USA started riots. Fix it or take the page down. https://universe.byu.edu/2020/07/10/police-arrest-fourth-person-in-connection-with-june-29-provo-protest/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jan/6/xrvision-firm-claims-antifa-infiltrated-protesters/ https://www.foxnews.com/politics/anti-trump-activist-entered-capitol-wednesday https://gellerreport.com/2021/01/more-evidence-photos-of-antifa-infiltration-at-capitol.html/ John Sullivans remarks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo0IyHfdWkI 2603:6011:9701:6C1A:A831:AEFF:1A5B:32A3 (talk) 15:53, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

     Not done. Let's examine those sources. A student newspaper (byu.edu) isn't a reliable source. The Washington Times contradicts your proposal, not even mentioning Sullivan and explicitly saying that no Antifa supporters were identified. I could stop right there, but let's go on: Fox News is not considered a reliable source for political reporting, and the Geller Report is basically a blog, self-published, and therefore not usable. The fact that hundreds of people in the protest have already been identified as Trump supporters, and are begging for a presidential pardon, also contradicts your proposal. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Even worst! Quote: "Unable to find actual evidence that the pro-Trump hooligans who broke into the Capitol and assaulted the police were left-wing provocateurs, the right-wing mythmakers have seized instead on the incidental presence on the riot’s front lines of a single anti-Trump activist, a Black man from Utah who recorded his “adventure” on video." --87.170.197.155 (talk) 19:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    John Sullivan denied he is either right or left-leaning, but simply a BLM activist. It is very dangerous to suggest an individual's political bias if he never claims it. Also an important reminder for our editors, BLM movement is neither right nor left-leaning. While many BLM supporters voted for the Democrats, it is not up to WP to give them extra labels without reliable sources. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 04:10, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The right-wing media machine lies to its followers and uses "false flag" accusations to shift the blame from them. When will these people stop lying to themselves? -- Valjean (talk) 00:38, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Title

    It should be entitled “Republican Insurrection at the Capitol”. The reference to “Donald Trump and his allies” diminishes the role of the party in denying the outcome of the election and fomenting the unrest that led to the rally, the “Stop the Steal” rhetoric, the subsequent actions of the exclusively Republican rioters/insurrectionists and the continued challenge to certified electoral votes by Republican legislators after the violent attempt to interrupt legitimate congressional action and alter the outcome of the election. Seaneboy44 (talk) 20:10, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Disagree, there was not only Republicans there, it has been confirmed that there was Antifa amongst the people in the Capitol. He has been seen on video calling for people to burn it down, and he was part of the crowd breaking into the Speaker's Lobby when Ashli Babbit was shot, he can be heard saying "Go! Go! Let's get this shit" encouraging people to continue breaking the doors, in a video that he posted himself, immediately before Ashli Babbit is shot --75.118.49.94 (talk) 20:28, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    One man an antifa does not make EvergreenFir (talk) 20:32, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This is one confirmed man, and his brother James Sullivan, provided to Rudy Gulliani information that he was working with the FBI to expose and place blame on John and 226 members of Antifa that instigated the riot. Time will tell if this is true as more people are arrested. My point is that qualifying it with "Republican" is inaccurate, because it was not comprised entirely of Republicans simply due to the fact that someone who calls themselves Antifa was present, instigating, and arrested for rioting in the Capitol, among other charges. --75.118.49.94 (talk) 20:40, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    FBI so far has said there's no evidence to support the "it was antifa" claims. And Rudy Gulliani is far from reliable [46] [47] EvergreenFir (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The article which you linked that says the FBI found no evidence of Antifa at the riot was from 9 days ago. The affidavit which is located on justice.gov came out afterwards, and shows that is not the case. The affiant himself in the affidavit is a special agent of the FBI, so that is no longer a valid claim by the FBI. --75.118.49.94 (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And that affidavit is for a warrant for one individual. "Antifa" is not mentioned. Again, one individual does not constitute "antifa". EvergreenFir (talk) 23:00, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with that point. But "Republican insurrection at the Capitol" is not a good article title either. --Bangalamania (talk) 20:37, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No, this wasn't something exclusive to Republicans and largely wasn't really even about them. As for the "insurrection" bit, this is being discussed above. — Czello 23:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It was absolutely exclusive to Republicans. The rally featured exclusively Republican speakers; the goal was, originally through protest and then through violent means, to strip the electoral vote from a Democrat and, in direct violation of the constitution and federal law, hand the election to the Republican candidate; the members of the House and Senate who did not acknowledge that Trump lost the election were all Republicans and those that objected to the certified electoral votes (again, even after the insurrection had been quelled) were Republicans. The Republican Party did not offer platform during the last election and declared itself the party of Trump, and the RNC returned all of the leadership to their roles after the insurrection. I'm not sure how this could be considered anything other than exclusive to Republicans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seaneboy44 (talk • contribs) 04:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Seaneboy44: No, it wasn't. There were people here who weren't members of the Republican Party. Supporting Trump doesn't inherently make one a Republican, either. Nor was it arranged by the Republican Party. If you want to make the claim that this was something specific to the Republican Party you need to back up that claim with some very strong sources. You're implicating an entire political party here, when in reality it was far more complicated than that. Remember, "Pro-Trump" and "Republican" are not synonyms — Czello 08:36, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that “Republican Insurrection" is bad. However, the overall responsibility of Republican party for these events should be noted somewhere because it has been discussed in multiple RS, for example: "The Coup Began Years Ago. Republican lawmakers have shown their supporters that there is no line they cannot cross", etc. This is obvious because they openly lied about the results of the election. Ron Brownstein even argued that GOP silence on Trump's false election claims recalls McCarthy era. My very best wishes (talk) 01:47, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The involvement of Republicans in the mob and criticism of Republicans who objected to certification is mentioned several times in the article, including in the "Participating groups" section.
    BTW, if anyone happens to be curious, the individual mentioned above is John Earle Sullivan, and that article goes into a lot more detail. -- Beland (talk) 02:34, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    While the point is correct, the problem us that you would need reliable sources to use the phrase "Republican Insurrection" or it would be opposed due to WP:COMMONNAME. It doesn't matter whether 99.9% or 100% of those who participated where Republicans, just that those words are in use. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:26, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Sources supporting the OP are "New York Times - How Republicans Are Warping Reality Around the Capitol Attack" and "CNBC - Trump retains overwhelming support from Republicans after deadly U.S. Capitol attack: NBC poll". The second source exposes strong reasons (and not fear of life, but political existence, look at the 43% approval rating of Trump) for the Republican party to keep supporting Trump. Look also at the impeachment vote: 197 Republican Representatives, with only 10 dissenters, sided with Trump. --Robertiki (talk) 18:46, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    1/6

    Numerous sources refer to the storming as 1/6, should this be mentioned in the article intro? JJARichardson (talk) 20:44, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Please provide some examples EvergreenFir (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    One source is "NYT - 9/11 United Congress. The Capitol Riot on 1/6 Has Deepened the Divide". --Robertiki (talk) 18:53, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Suicides

    Perhaps naively, I added the following in the section "Deaths and injuries":

    In the aftermath, two people who had been on the scene died by suicide: a police officer, and an alleged participant.[1][2]

    It was unceremoniously removed with the comment "that material is covered in Aftermath of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol" by somebody who probably lost track of the reader's perspective. First of all, the first suicide is not even mentioned in that other article (if anybody would even suspect that there was such an article, and that it means strictly chronological rather than historical aftermath), only in this article under... "Responses" (really?). And it also seems to me that, when grouping in different dimensions, matters of life and death kind of trump strict chronology, and not only for injuries from which people died later. — RFST (talk) 03:15, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ "Capitol Police Officer Who Responded To Mob Attack Dies Off Duty". NPR. Retrieved 18 January 2021.
    2. ^ "Georgia Man Charged In U.S. Capitol Attack Dies By Suicide". Forbes. Retrieved 18 January 2021.
    After looking at the two sources, I am not seeing a cause-and-effect relationship, or even that the suicides are part of an "aftermath". Two people who happened to be present at the insurrection also happened to commit suicide. No explanation or causality was revealed by the sources; it may as well have been coincidence, they could have committed suicide regardless of what happened in DC. So I am not seeing this as relevant to this article. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:36, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    A lot of sources have mentioned these deaths. Perhaps without a note, there's less clarity, but they were present. They seem noteworthy. Strict chronology does lose track of these two. Mcfnord (talk) 05:30, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    They are both reported, one at 2021 storming of the United States Capitol#Responses and one at Aftermath of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol#January 10. WWGB (talk) 07:41, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That is exactly the problem: two people who might have lived are now dead, and this is effectively hidden away without rhyme or reason. To causality: it would be preferable to first quantify the exact odds for two people to die by purely coincidental suicide days later before deciding to omit these highly significant facts (for those directly involved at least). But I rest my case. — RFST (talk) 08:59, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Did Alex Azar actually resign?

    I don’t think that’s right. PTSDSufferer (talk) 04:43, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    yes Walrus Ji (talk) 05:34, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Kinda of. His resignation will occur on the 20th, so he will resign. It just will not occur until Trump leaves the White House. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:18, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it’s notable to note he noted the Capitol riots in his resignation letter, but he also wants to stay until the end of the administration to ensure a smooth transition to the Biden administration. [48] PTSDSufferer (talk) 18:32, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    All cabinet secretaries submit their resignations effective Inauguration Day - the date when the administration ends that appointed them. That's what Azar did. No different from what every other cabinet secretary routinely did. I don't think it's notable. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:26, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    To say that Alex Azar resigned as a result of what happened at the Capitol is an outright lie, at least if we are going to believe this article [Fox News | https://www.foxnews.com/media/hhs-secretary-azar-rips-cnn-after-report-of-resignation-i-am-still-here], also the NY Times does not include him in a recent list: [NY Times | https://www.nytimes.com/article/trump-resignations.html] Sbyholm (talk) 08:13, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Improving sequence in the lead

    I have rearranged the first three paragraphs of the article to straighten out the sequence of events, but there may still be a need for some trimming. I have not knowingly left out any of the references. Qexigator (talk) 12:41, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Death of Ashley Babbitt

    The page has been blanked two timeswithout discussion , the last time by GorillaWarfare. In contrast to what GorillaWarfare claims, Looking at the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashli Babbitt there's no objection/consensus against creating a standalone page on the incident of Babbitt's death. Fresh sources like this shows the event is still creating news. Any thoughts? --Mhhossein talk 12:42, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Notable for one event, no she is not indepdendantly notable.Slatersteven (talk) 12:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly, the event of her death is notable! --Mhhossein talk 13:20, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Per the AFD that you linked yourself, you are incorrect... the consensus was that she fails WP:BIO1E and to REDIRECT to this article... she is NOT notable enough for a standalone article... - Adolphus79 (talk) 13:23, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Clarification (Ashley Babbitt vs Death of Ashley Babbitt): I need to say this, after two users (Slatersteven and Adolphus79) are failing to get the point of WP:BIO1E. No one is saying Ashley Babbitt is notable enough at the moment for having a stand alone page, rather the event of her death should be considered as an independent subject. These two are far way different, so please don't mix them. --Mhhossein talk 13:42, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The event of her death was the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol (or whatever this page winds up being titled in the future)... not a standalone event, not a standalone death... this has already been discussed and settled... - Adolphus79 (talk) 13:53, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It is probably too early to have an article. No doubt there will be an enquiry about her death and lots of information and opinion reported in reliable sources. She may in time become a martyr for the far right, like Horst Wessel or John Birch. Either could establish notability. At present however there is insufficient reporting to write an informative article. Per WP:CRYSTALBALL, I suggest we wait until sources are available. TFD (talk) 16:44, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think her death warrants its own separate article, any more than an article about her is warranted. VQuakr (talk) 16:59, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Some thoughts and sources with excerpts:
    Federal prosecutors have arrested a Kentucky man who they allege was part of a violent crowd that stormed the House Speaker’s Lobby during the breach of the U.S. Capitol, smashing a window with a flagpole moments before Ashli Babbitt was fatally shot, court filings show.
An FBI charging affidavit alleges that Chad Barrett Jones is the man shown in video at Babbitt’s left on Jan. 6, wearing a red-hooded jacket and gray skullcap and striking the lobby door’s glass panels as a mob chanted “Break it down!” and “Let’s f-----g go!”
A police officer, with gun raised, appeared to shoot Babbitt, with Jones still in view at the left and holding the pole, the FBI agent said.

    Prosecutors in the office’s Civil Rights division have opened a formal, federal excessive force case into Babbitt’s death.

    Her death was part of the grim toll of a riot that left five people dead, including a Capitol Police officer, vandalized the seat of American democracy and left the nation shaken. But the insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol with Babbitt—climbing on scaffolding, smashing windows, looting offices and posing for selfies as they romped through the building for nearly three hours—were far from chastened by the deadly cost.
One of the keys to that propaganda, experts say, will be its new martyr: a young, white, 14-year Air Force veteran who liked to post photos in red MAGA hats and We Are Q shirts. Babbitt, who ran a pool-supply company with her husband in San Diego, was an avid Trump supporter who prolifically retweeted conspiracy theories and posted angry videos directed at lawmakers.’’
Regardless of what Babbitt believed in life, in death she has become a symbol both for causes she fervently embraced and some she likely never even heard of.
    Neutral information is better as silence from who don’t approve. --Robertiki (talk) 01:29, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Robertiki: Thanks for the important points. Her death has been the subject to numerous reliable sources receiving in-depth coverage. Her death incident should certainly be differentiated from the riot event. --Mhhossein talk 11:58, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Her death is only notable within the scope of this article/event, not separate from it. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 14:16, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    She is not notable outside of her death and her death is an inextricable part of this riot. --Khajidha (talk) 16:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I think there is enough material about her death in this article as is warranted. A separate article on her death is unnecessary and something that I will object to. Walrus Ji (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The more appropriate place to discuss this would be at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 January 10#Ashli Babbitt, or in the deletion discussion for the article if that is re-opened. Talking about it here isn't going to have much effect. --RL0919 (talk) 17:00, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Counter to coup claim

    This article includes an interview with historian Stanley G. Payne where he dismisses comparisons between this and the 1981 Spanish coup d'état attempt and by extension other coups simply calling this a riot. [49]. Thought it would be worth having for debate and adding counter-claims. 3Kingdoms (talk) 17:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Warning: article does not actually "contain an interview", but contains mere snippets of interview text with "interpretations" provided and opinions inserted by Kurt Hofer. In terms of sources, this is terrible, even knowing that "The American Conservative" is already a propaganda site. IHateAccounts (talk) 18:41, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Just about everything you posted is wrong. TAC is not a "propaganda site" any more than the Nation or TNR. Finally there is no evidence that Hofer is taking Payne out of context. 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:00, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It's doubtful that any experts would describe the affray as an insurrection or coup. But we can't use this source per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. We are best waiting until the hysteria dies down and expert opinion gets reported in mainstream sources. TFD (talk) 19:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The Four Deuces, the Joint Chiefs of Staff unanimously issued an official statement to U.S. troops calling the events of January 6 "sedition" and "insurrection", and many reliable sources reported on that. Are you arguing that the Joint Chiefs lack the expertise to make that assessment? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    In fact they do not and there is nothing in reliable sources that says they do. Notice also their careful wording avoids calling it sedition or insurrection. TFD (talk) 09:05, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That is fair, but I disagree about TAC since there is no agreement for it being reliable source, but I do agree we should wait. I posted this hoping to have a discussion and decide to on counter-claims since a lot of people are saying coup. 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:09, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    A large number of WP:RS say "coup", partly because the stated intent of the rioters was political assassinations (up to and including Pence [50]) and partly because their intent was to subvert the election in the fashion of an autocoup. IHateAccounts (talk) 19:17, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That has no bearing on what I posted. My point was to add a source by a respected historian talking about why he says this is not a coup but simply a riot. 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:23, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's a better source, "Why Trump Isn't a Fascist" (Richard J. Evans New Statesman, 13 Jan 2021.) Evans says that Trump isn't a fascist and the storming of the Capitol was not a coup. "[F]ew who have described Trump as a fascist can be called real experts in the field, not even Snyder. The majority of genuine specialists, including the historians Roger Griffin, Matthew Feldman, Stanley Payne and Ruth Ben-Ghiat, agree that whatever else he is, Trump is not a fascist." TFD (talk) 11:10, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree great source. 3Kingdoms (talk) 16:04, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Black Hebrew Israelites

    It's claimed in this article (under section 3.4) that people associated with the Black Hebrew Israelites also participated in or were at the very least in the vicinity of the riot. I wasn't able to corroborate that via a quick Google Search (which doesn't mean it's wrong), but is there any further information as to what goals they were pursuing? Were they pro-Trump as well? I suggest adding one additional citation pertaining to the presence of the Black Hebrew Israelites during the event, if possible.

    The source appears to be this Business Insider story, which is solely sourced to a Daily Beast reporter's tweet, itself prefaced with "appear to be." Also worth noting that previous RFCs have determined Business Insider to not be that reliable of a source. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 10:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Thank you very much for clarifying and reacting so quickly! Quite a few Black Hebrew Israelites do appear to hold anti-Semitic views and oppose many aspects of left-wing politics in the USA, so it's not totally inconceivable that they could perceive themselves as having common ground with far right and even white supremacist groups. Maybe at some point in the future more details will emerge regarding their involvement, but I agree with you that at this stage it's somewhat open to debate whether they should be mentioned in the article. However, the photo of them does seem legit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.100.143.101 (talk) 11:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    BHIs are a rather WP:FRINGE group, so I think better sourcing is needed for this if it is to be deemed WP:DUE and merit inclusion. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:27, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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