Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

One or more IP editors are adding content to the EL section of the BLP George Szamuely and I have been reverting. I don't like to revert so many times, but am confident I am justified. Would appreciate other editors having a look. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Ameliorate! and Walter Görlitz, do you think this needs to go to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection for a while? The rules are clear: Disputed links are excluded unless and until there is a consensus to include them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:34, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

If the editor adds the ELs back again I think it would make sense. I would like some on the project to review the links that are posted in the discussion to determine if they should or should not be listed though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

As the disruptive editing has continued, I've put in an RfPP request. The position that BobFromBrockley and Walter Görlitz have argued at the talk page appears to be the correct one, per our external links policy. Curbon7 (talk) 02:08, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

See here - this is the 2nd time the editor has added it. @Ario1234: I don't know what others will say, but you should see this discussion. Doug Weller talk 15:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

the book is on Internet Archive

"The Internet Archive is an American digital library with the stated mission of "universal access to all knowledge". It provides free public access to collections of digitized materials, including websites, software applications/games, music, movies/videos, moving images, and millions of books. In addition to its archiving function, the Archive is an activist organization, advocating a free and open Internet. As of 2022, the Internet Archive holds over 34 million books and texts, 7 million movies, videos and TV shows, 800 thousand software programs, 14 million audio files, 4 million images, 1 million media files, 2 million TV clips, and over 681 billion web pages in the Wayback Machine." Ario1234 (talk) 20:17, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Generally no it's a violation of WP:COPYLINK. There's been a few conversations on here before and Archive.org is embroiled in an legal challenge around it, but does not actually have permission to have copies of these online. The thing is also we've had a few occasions of people just uploading books to there and then linking them. Archive.org can have a mission of making all this info free, but the fact is they don't have the legal permissions usually. Canterbury Tail talk 20:45, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Even if there were no copyright concerns at all (e.g., a 19th century book), editors normally list books under Wikipedia:Further reading instead of in the ==External links== section. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:04, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Canterbury, does not actually have permission to have copies of these online. Authors Guild, Inc. v. Google, Inc. is settled law now. Libraries do not require permission to make scanned books available for search and limited preview. The unsettled law is Controlled Digital Lending which is one of the options at IA if users 1) log into their registered account and 2) click through to a separate page to access it. -- GreenC 03:11, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

@GreenC but this isn’t limited preview is it? Doug Weller talk 06:32, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

No a simple free account can access the entire book as part of the CDL indicated above, which they don't have permission for. As a result we cannot link to it unless the copyright on that is very clear. Canterbury Tail talk 12:48, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Permission is required? There is no law that says libraries must have permission to lend holdings. Just the opposite. CDL is based in long-standing existing library law, one copy one lend. It's a pretty conservative position. Google was the the radical change. If you recall, we linked to Google Books during the 10 years of Authors Guild, Inc. v. Google, Inc., it was a direct link, no registration required. During that trial, there was no court injunction for Google to take the content offline ie. the judge did not find it a problem the content was online, even though Authors Guild had requested an injunction, it was denied, the content was allowed to stay online as an official ruling until the case was settled. Also, web archives such as Wayback Machine and archive.today also have unsettled copyright law. We need to be careful about being too reactionary when it comes to copyright law. -- GreenC 14:01, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

@GreenC we've got two separate discussions. One is where such a link should go, and that's further reading IMHO. The other is the copyright status, and that's for another venue. Doug Weller talk 15:36, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

So in conclusion is linking to Internet Archive allowed or not? Ario1234 (talk) 02:12, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Why not add it to the further reading section with other books. -- GreenC 03:56, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Raised at WP:CQ#Are links to the Internet Archive for books in copyright copyright violations?. Doug Weller talk 09:55, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

My "not a lawyer" opinion - what Canterbury Tail said. I don't believe the Hachette case has been settled yet, so I think the legality of content on IA is still under review. COPYLINK advises caution. Even if the internet archive gets clearance, that doesn't mean the content is no longer protected by copyright. It would mean that the way they are using it is adjudged to be fair use. Our own claim to fair use relies on several factors. One - that we are non-profit - is a factor we've chosen to downplay, because we encourage reuse of our content anywhere by anyone for any purpose. We encourage reuse commercially. We encourage reuse in different legal environments where non-free content is handled very differently. This is one reason why in our m:Resolution:Licensing policy the first position is that content should be free. Exemptions should be limited. I'd be more comfortable with such a link if it were in a citation. As it is, it seems to be a link to a book about the same topic of which we write, but not used transformatively in any way - we're just encouraging people to go read a copyrighted work for free on a website that has a (I believe still) dubious right to display it. The primary person liable for any copyright infringement would, of course, be the person who places the link here, but there is downstream risk for reusers, too. Probably not a strong one. But the case for fair use here seems weak at best. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:52, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

• Question I have not looked at this, but if the user has any type of access to the book, then why do they link to the online copy? Why don't they just cite the book directly, and be done with it? Huggums537 (talk) 07:07, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
• Uh, nevermind. Don't know where I am these days. This is about external links, not citations. I'm outta here... Huggums537 (talk) 07:17, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Should we be adding links to "a free online emulator for operating systems" to Linux distribution articles? Huggums537 (talk · contribs) has been doing so.

distrotest.net    

I reverted one addition based on both Wikipedia:NOTHOWTO and that the link does not add to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject. I may have been hasty, but would like some discussion with a larger audience. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:35, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Keep. I haven't instructed anybody "how-to" do anything, and if seeing the actual primary source of an operating system boot up and run doesn't give the user a greater encyclopedic understanding of the subject, then I have no idea what does. Huggums537 (talk) 23:48, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

I would also like to add that some of these Linux distributions such as Arch Linux, Absolute Linux, or VectorLinux are either difficult to install, or they do not have a Live CD version, and must be installed on the system before they can be seen at all. This gives readers a unique opportunity to understand the primary source of the subject without having to be forced to install it on their own actual hardware when they might not otherwise have been able to do so because of this limitation. Huggums537 (talk) 00:36, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Keep per @Huggums537. It seems like a useful addition to me. I think that WP:VG does something similar with old DOS video games if there is a copy at the Internet Archive. Rlink2 (talk) 00:04, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I did not accuse you of providing how to instructions only that this is the purpose of that site. How does the site provide an encyclopedic understanding of the subjects? Seeing a copyrighted painting definitely gives a greater understanding of the work, but I do not see how running a Linux distribution helps a reader gain more understanding of the distro. The sections of that articles are features, and it may help see those, but no help with understanding its security, installation or package classification and support. The site ends up being a how to in that regard—how to run it—but little in the way of understanding how it works, which is what I expect from an encyclopedia article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:38, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

but little in the way of understanding how it works Having an opprtunity to test drive the distro obviously helps anyone gain better understanding of how it works. You can run commands, explore system settings, etc..... Including any possible package manager and classifications, like you are saying.

Note that WP:NOTHOWTO is more about the actual article content and not about the external links section.

The external links guideline states:

There are several things that should be considered when adding an external link: Is the site content accessible to the reader? Is the site content proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)? Is the link functioning and likely to remain functional? I'd argue the link meets all three requirements. Rlink2 (talk) 16:38, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I did not accuse you of providing how to instructions only that this is the purpose of that site. This accusation is even worse since the gross mischaracterization of the site is so far exaggerated, I would even go so far as to say it has kinship with a lie. It is obvious to anyone the primary purpose of the site is a testing platform to see how operating systems work [what they look like, and how they are configured], not any kind of "how to" or "instructional". I have already explained how it has encyclopedic value, but since you don't understand, I explain further. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. Back in the old days, a picture in a paper encyclopedia was worth a thousand words, but today a video is worth 10,000 on Wikipedia because it is not paper. Having a link to a live demonstration of the primary source right there in your browser is the modern day equivalent of being able to beam a faithful reproduction of that painting so you can examine it up close, and actually run your fingers across the brush strokes of the canvas if you want to. This is because of the dynamic capabilities of Wikipedia. Embrace it. The barbaric notion that something has to have some academic text based function in order to have encyclopedic value is archaic thinking that went out with the paper encyclopedia. Lastly, stop confusing the site with article; The site ends up being a how to in that regard—how to run it—but little in the way of understanding how it works, which is what I expect from an encyclopedia article. The article already does a fine job of explaining all this. So, the reader should already know what to expect. If your complaint is that the site has a F.A.Q. section for their patrons on "how-to" get unstuck if they have a problem, and you are calling that "instructional", then you are really stretching things out of proportion as I said before. You might as well say Youtube links are not allowed because of their extremely extensive "intructional" help section... Huggums537 (talk) 17:18, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Your response here essentially called me an idiot for not recognizing what was "obvious to anyone".

I believe that your characterization is wrong. The whole purpose of that site is how to run the OS without installing it yourself. What would you call that other than a "how to"? I still see absolutely no encyclopedic value in be able to run through the OS. Clearly you to disagree. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:17, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

. The whole purpose of that site is how to run the OS without installing it yourself. The purpose of the site is not how to "run" the OS, since it does that for you already.

That "how to" rule applies to encylopedic content anyway, not the external links section, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Rlink2 (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Agree to disagree I guess. Huggums537 (talk) 00:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Keep Honestly I don't see why not. Some could argue it's better than linking to an article on the distro and I don't see anything on ELNO that would be against it, other than perhaps #7 but I tested it on multiple devices and browsers and it appears to work on all of them. I'm normally against extraneous links and am pretty militant at removing them, but I can't see a reason to do so to these ones. I know it's not quite the same, but when we discuss media or other interactive items a link to the item is normal to see what is being discussed. That's obviously harder with things like OSs, but this seems to be suitable. I say keep them. Canterbury Tail talk 17:23, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I have noticed a few articles about novels contain external links to study guides such as Kafka's The Trial. Are study guides appropriate for wikipedia? Medarduss (talk) 10:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

It's not feeling like a great match to me, @Medarduss, although I'm unaware of any previous discussions on the subject. I've removed the two linked at The Trial#External links. Now we can wait to see whether anyone objects. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @WhatamIdoing. I guess I should probably have done that myself. Medarduss (talk) 12:43, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

The usual rule at WP:ELBURDEN is that if a link is removed, it should stay out until there's a consensus (e.g., a quick discussion on the talk page) to re-add it. So whenever you see links that you're pretty sure are not good for the article, then you should feel free to remove them. But I'm also happy to see editors who balance that by asking for other opinions when they're not sure. You did good. :-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:07, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Good Day

I would like to publish a page for an author (see draft link below), but many of his reference links point to www.amazon.com, which appears to be linked to the black and white spam lists. I ask for your kind approval to review this draft for inclusion. Thank you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Kyle_Jantjies&action=submit — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruthweb (talk • contribs) 16:33, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

You haven't posted that page yet, so nobody can see it.

Why do you think you need links to Amazon.com? If it's a link to a book, then just take the Amazon link out, and leave in the other information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:03, 27 May 2022 (UTC)