Brett Flashnick / AP file
U.S. Army Spc. Simran Lamba, center, the first enlisted Soldier to be granted a religious accommodation for his Sikh articles of faith since 1984, stands in formation with fellow soldiers before taking the oath of citizenship, prior to his graduation from basic training at Fort Jackson, S.C., in 2010.
The Pentagon on Wednesday is expected to announce widespread changes to rules governing religious items and religion-based physical attributes that service members can maintain while in uniform — including beards, some religious tattoos, and turbans.
NBC News obtained an early draft of the new Department of Defense instruction which states that the military will make every effort to accommodate “individual expressions of sincerely held beliefs” (conscience, moral principles, or religious beliefs) of service members.
It goes on to say that unless doing so could have an adverse impact on military readiness, unit cohesion, good order and discipline, health and safety, or any other military requirement, commanders can grant service members special permission to display their religious articles while in uniform.
Requests for religious accommodation can be denied when the “needs of mission accomplishment outweigh the needs of the service member,” the directive will explain.
Earlier this month, a major in the U.S. Army who is a Sikh American took his case to staffers on the Hill, explaining how he and other Sikhs should be able to serve in uniform and still maintain their religious beliefs, including wearing turbans and unshorn hair, including beards.
The new directive will explain that if the articles of faith or physical attributes interfere with the proper function of protective clothing and equipment, the request could be denied. For example, a beard or unshorn hair cannot interfere with gas masks or helmets.
Jewish service members can request permission to wear a yarmulke while in uniform. Muslim service members can request to wear a beard and carry prayer beads. Even Wiccan service members, those who practice "Magick," can seek accommodation — the directive covers all religions recognized by the U.S. military.
The policy will also spell out that service members have the right to observe no religion at all.
According to Defense Department statistics, which are based solely on self-reporting, there are only a handful of Sikh Americans in the military (about 3).
There are nearly 3,700 Muslims, nearly 6,300 Buddhists, and more than 1,500 Wiccans.
The immediate commander can approve some of the religious accommodation, but some will have to be kicked up to higher headquarters.
In some cases wearing something that impacts the uniform (religious apparel), grooming (beards, longer hair), religious tattoos, and some jewelry with religious inscriptions.
The directive stresses that “the importance of uniformity and adhering to standards, of putting unit before self, is more significant and needs to be carefully evaluated when considering each request for accommodation.”
It goes on to say that “it is particularly important to consider the effect on unit cohesion.”
Each individual service member has to re-apply for new permission at each new assignment, transfer of duty stations, and for each deployment.
Except crucifixes. There shall be no crucifixes.
I didn't see that in the article, was it said somewhere else? they can already wear them now, are they now being outlawed? that would surprise me of course, but maybe you have updated info?
joann, stick your $7000 in one month up your ass
no, no, no!!! Don't care if Christian, Jew, Sikh, Muslim or worship Ren & Stimpy (weird huh!)
The only things military personel should have on is military EVERYTHING.
Crucifixes can be worn. I'm in the military. They're not outlawed. the rule now when it comes to wearing pendant religious jewelry is that it can't be bigger than a dog tag. The really is no reason to deny someone the right to wear religious jewelry or apparel unless it compromises the wear of protective gear or the mission at hand by causing the member to not function appropriately. Males who are Jewish and in the military can already wear Yamachas and they match their uniforms. People's bias and prejudice against some one elses religious beliefs should not and don't count. Just like it should not have ever counted if some one was homophobic and did not want to be around some one who is a homosexual in the military.
People who are not in the military should stay out of it. It's not their business until they sign up to go to war at anytime and serve their country via being in the military.
GI, as in government issue. When in uniform wear the uniform issued. When on your own time, in civilian cloths, wear what ever pleases you. All this political correctness BS has to stop somewhere. this is an all voluntary military. If you don't like the rules , don't join!
This has nothing to do with LBGT openly in the military. Don't even try to equate the issues as being the samething.
Next it will be bring your RPG and IED to work day. This is the US military not Google.
The destruction of America continues. It will not be long now, maybe 10-15 years and America will be destroyed from within. The poor rising up against the rich, the children stoned by drugs, religious war, homosexualty permenting every faucet of society even forcing Christian churches to conform, the murdering of the unborn because they wanted a boy not a girl or vice verser. The murdering of all those who are to old or handicapped to be any use to the evil ones. It is going to happen, its not a matter of if, its just when. God said the evil will grow to a point as in sodom and gomorrah where there is not one left to save, then the end shall come.
Well said, Sinister!
They were talking about unit cohesiveness and comrodery which has been effected by prejudice towards homosexuality. Prejudice is prejudice regardless of what it is towards. There are people who will be against the wearing of turbins and other such religious aparel and jewelry because they are against the religion they come from. They will then in turn not work as well with the person that is wearing those things as they would with someone of a religion they approve of.
The Sikhs are historically great warriors - we are lucky to have them in our military. I would suggest forming all-Sikh units, including the officers. Then they would be uniform (as in similar in appearance) throughout the unit. The esprit would be outstanding - the sharp point of the spear.
Since there are racist in the military, should we then allow there to be racist units because the members in them will have and display better unit cohesion? Some people don't realize that still, not every bit of religious clothing or jewelry will be allowed to be worn. the rule now is if someone is wearing a bunch of colorful and big beads, they'll still be asked to take those beads off. The clothing and jewelry have to match the uniform. jewelry can't be worn outside of the uniform unless it's a ring.
Does this include wearing a rainbow flag patch on uniform? Or an 'equal sign'?
@medcorps - I can agree with you for the most part on what you're saying... until you claim that
And there you are wrong. It is every tax paying citizen's business. If you are representing me and I'm paying your salary, I have every right to an opinion.
Yes, Jerry, watch your faucets! We don't want the homosexuals permenting them!
It's clear to me now what the policy is. So, now people are allowed to wear religious items unless..... So, with the underlying premise being the importance of "unit cohesion," it's obvious what that means! No disputes should come from that. If someone wants to wear something and someone else in the group does't want them to wear it, then what? Do you take a vote of the group? Or is it the boss, platoon leader, or whatever, that has the final say? If someone disagrees with the decision, do they get to appeal it?
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. But, just on it's face, it seems to me that this has the potential to destroy the prized "unit cohesion" rather than help it. At least with a set and fast rule, no one could blame anyone in the unit itself. But, maybe the fact is that in today's military, no one cares about these things. Oh well, to each their own.... until someone in authority says otherwise.
Sorry, But your post makes no sense in this all voluntary military. And sexual orientation is not the same as this religious issue. Like in separation of state and religion. And again I say when in uniform wear the uniform issued. On your off time, wear what you want. The military is not a democracy as they use to say. If people don't like the rules no one has a gun to their heads to join.
How can you tell when your faucet has been permeated by a homosexual ? By its Moen !
Oh that's nice that fairytale believers can do their stupid crap while in uniform. But take notice how other fairytale believers (x-tians) are already having a hissy fit over this. "My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend".
Can followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster wear a colander? Pastafarians consider that to be religious headgear.
Those of you who don't want religious items to be worn when they will NOT have an effect on unit readiness, safety or cohesion (and the commander of a unit makes the decision whether it affects cohesion - not the individual members of the unit) must also agree then that no crosses or crucifixes should be allowed, either. If you can't wear a star of David or a Muslim symbol or a pentacle or a triquetera or small prayer beads then you can't wear anything that is Christian in nature, either. Or is it only NON-CHRISTIAN items that you have a problem with? If it's the latter, get over yourselves. We do NOT have a state religion. We are NOT a "Christian Nation" ... we are a SECULAR nation that welcomes ALL religions. It's even in our Constitution.
Prejudice is prejudice, which can and does effect unit cohesion regardles whether it's towards religious beliefs or homosexuality. One of the issues that was raised was unit cohesion. Open homosexuals have had an effect on unit cohesion.
We are forced to pay taxes. Unless you are actually going to sign up to go to war at any time, and do so, via joining the military, it's not your business.
The last line in the sailor's creed is "I am commited to excellance and the fair treatment of all." All Sailors should know that.
And one addresses biased interpretations of affecting unit cohesion how?
Hey IndianaEngineer- "It is every tax paying citizen's business. If you are representing me and I'm paying your salary, I have every right to an opinion." Yes you do, but opinions are like @!$%#s, everyone has one. And, Soldiers pay taxes too. What medcorps is trying to say is that you have no idea what you're talking about unless you've actually served in the military. You, like most of the people currently running this country somehow seem to think they know what's best for the military, yet have never served. To them, going to places like Afghanistan is a security filled photo op designed to allow them get re-elected.
Thank you Todd-651965! :) You are correct in your interpretation! :)
So how many Christians serve in the US military...Interesting how they leave them out...is it because the are a majority or just not an interesting minority?
"Religious Wear"
You've got to be kidding. This is sort of weird.
We are a secular nation, but we seem to welcome NO religion.
Christians not in the Priesthood don't have much when it comes to religious apparel. They're not being left out. They can wear a crucifix all day with no problems. It'll just need to be worn under ones' uniform, unless they are a Priest and they are actively conducting a religious ceremony or ritual.
DAMN,,,we have sand@!$%#s in our military,,,,anybody ever read th rise and fall of th roman empire?and o-yeh medcorps I gave my all for 7 years to Vietnam just to get screwed by the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT afterwards,,no one from the middle east should be in our country let alone in our military,look at what happened at ft.hood texas !
The beginning of the end of the US military. Won't be long until the UN has complete control over them. Obama wins!
Thanks for your service southener, but you really need to get some help. The VA offers free counseling that might help you deal with your anger in a way that isn't so hateful. Seriously, go get help before you end up a statistic like so many others. Go to www.vetcenter.va.gov for additional information on some of the services you have earned by your service.
@Marcus Aurelius
Is being gay now a f*cking religion? Did we read the same article because I'm pretty sure this was only concerning RELIGION.
I would think the other 3,700 Muslims apparently serving capably in the current military might have something to say about being discharged because of the actions of one person, southener. As might the other 2.6 million American Muslims living here peacefully. They're here and they're not going anywhere. You can either tolerate it or whine about it; either way, it doesn't really affect anything except your own peace of mind.
If the symbol is not interfering with their ability to function then what is the problem. A religious symbol on a chain around someones neck or a head covering isn't going to interfere with someone performing their work.
This would not be an issue if morons would stop believing in complete stone age BS. If you must have something, put it on a boot lace around your neck with your tags and keep it hidden. Your religious preference used to be on your tags (don't know if it is now). Have your magical symbol on your meat tag (tattoo on your rib cage in case your head and foot gets blown off).
So much for no shave chits. :)
the southener
DAMN,,,we have sand@!$%#s in our military,,,,anybody ever read th rise and fall of th roman empire?and o-yeh medcorps I gave my all for 7 years to Vietnam just to get screwed by the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT afterwards,,no one from the middle east should be in our country let alone in our military,look at what happened at ft.hood texas !
Clearly you are a f*cking idiot, most likely drafted and woke up in country when you rolled over and farted. (hamburger hill). Not all muslims come from the middle east you ignorant hick. I served with a couple of them from New York, one black guy the other spanish (from Spain).
I do not have any strong feelings on this issue from either viewpoint. However, just wondering, "if this major gets promoted to Lt. Col, where is he going to wear his "scrambled eggs"? :-)
What about the southerners who are members of the KKK, going to allow them to wear their white hoodies for roll call? I am not for this but eventually it will go to this extreme.
Does this include Pastafarians?
rAmen
Seven2Seven
What about the southerners who are members of the KKK, going to allow them to wear their white hoodies for roll call?
No, most liberals wont join the service.
What will happen next? Will they start dragging their prayer rugs along with them on the battle field?
@JMarine0811 It's still on ones dog tags if one chooses it to be.
I'm laughing my a$$ off trying to envision full beards in the Corps. Maybe for the REMF's but not line units. No way, can't see it ever happening.
No, Tom, it does not include made up things for the sheer purpose of being an immature religion mocking a-hole...
More political correctness. Lets worry about that first. They are already planning to lower the physical standards. Trying to get women into combat units. Where ultimately everyone is infantry.
We aren't necessarily a secular nation; however, our government is supposed to be secular.
I was in the military. Everyone should dress uniform. Beards and facial hair compromise the effectiveness of a gas mask. A turban is just dumb. You don't need jewelry for God to know where you are like some divine GPS.
mailman8,
That was my first thought as well.
That would be an amazing sight to behold...................except for those on the receiving end of their point that is.
If you ever get a chance and have a Sikh Temple in your area go visit when they have an open house (most I'm told do). They are really warm, kind and a downright joy to get to meet. They usually prepare a vegetarian meal as per their custom and share with all that attend and it is just amazing food. Though raised Christian I almost felt like worshiping with them just to be a part of it all. If ours wasn't an hour drive from where I live I would visit often (as well as our Coptic Christian Church) because they were so kind and warm.
You might enjoy reading these. There are days when I just want to chuck everything and go learn from Gurudev Nihang Singh and study Shastar Vidiya. Then I remember I can't even grow chest hair much less a beard (damn Chinese 1/2 of me anyway) . I hope you enjoy them I just gush and could go on forever about this Gentleman.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8878537/Worlds-last-Sikh-warrior-who-lives-in-Wolverhampton.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bibek-bhandari/the-last-sikh-warrior_b_1133943.html
Nidar Singh Nihang the last surviving Shastar Vidiya warrior master - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKV9FLDsoyY
The following two are about the 1897 battle at the British fortress at Saragarh. The authors embellish quite a bit and take some artistic license but they are meant in admiration not mockery.
http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-classic-in-praise-of-sikhs-the-coolest-warrior-tribe-around/
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/21sikhs.html
One of these days (maybe today even) I'm going to seek out a regular book or article on this historical moment.
I can't wait for the nudist to demand that they "don't" have to wear uniforms.
Good lord, IF YOU CANNOT COMPLY WITH DRESS STANDARDS YOU DONT BELONG IN THE MILITARY. No one cares what your religion is, but when in uniform, you are to comply with orders. I feel sorry for this guys superiors, as they cannot count on this INDIVIDUAL to follow directives. This douche can have a turbine and a beard, yet tattoos on the arms must be covered and cross necklaces must be kept under the shirt.
service BEFORE self, or did you spend all of basic training in sick bay? The people pushing these issues have no business in this business. They have no ability to think of anyone other than themselves and are a danger to the brave people around them who depend on each other to watch their back. In the past, people who think only of themselves and bring this kind of turmoil into the brother hood end up casualties of "friendly fire" or "training accidents".
A turban and a beard both interfere with the donning of gas masks, as well as distinguishes one soldier from another, which greatly interferes with the mission, if your in combat being shot at. The stakes are MUCH higher and things that don't matter on 3rd street, Anytown USA; matter in a back alley in Kabul. A necklace can be worn, with a pendant, but it must be worn under the T shirt, completely concealed. It cannot be worn in combat, though, since a small part of the necklace can sometimes be seen on the back side of the neck, which makes a great target thru a sniper scope.
Similar appearance is of absolute importance to soldiers and commanders, some one who stands out from the rest is a danger in terms of safety and control.
religion doesn't matter, following orders does. compliance to orders.
Oh this is just great! Now it will pave the way for female or cross gender troops to wear burka's! Way to go a$$holes!
Hey, i'm all for religious tolerance as long as it doesn't put the mission and/or service members in unnecessary jeopardy. If you need to wear a pot you can't wear a turban, if your mission requires the possible requirement of wearing a gas mask or OBA you can't have a beard, etc, etc.
It's been over 30 years since i was in but even back then they tolerated all different religions pretty well. At least as well as they tolerated anything not brown or green. Not sure what the story is here.
The military will figure out a way to refine or define the proper time and place to allow for these religious wear.
Tattoos are banned from the military yet many service men and women are wearing them. Corn rows for black females were once banned yet now they allow women to wear them. Jewelry, backpacks, heels, earrings, bracelets, make-up, were once banned now the military allows use of these items with limitations.
I the church of Satin reconized by the military?
Religion is a personal matter, that does not belong in the United States Military. I am curious, just who are being accommodated by this action?
The Military has long standing, proud traditions.. dress code is one of them. Woman in the military, LGBT in the military, we are all Americans. Special concessions for religious reason... not something I support--(my opinion)
Jrsquid, all those things are stuff that has kept women out of combat roles. Drawing attention to yourself and your "special needs" only ensures in the long run, and on the whole, you are kept out of combat. If you want to be in combat, comply with regulations, not fight to change the system to make exceptions for YOU. If you don't want to be in combat...your in the wrong damn profession.
where do you attach NVG or optics to a turban? what kind of round can it stop?
If they have religious preference over conformity kick them out they don't belong in the military REALLY?? what is wrong with the US for real????
One reason this article specifically mentions Sikhs is that their religion has specific requirements around appearance and apparel. Muslims aren't required to wear turbans, but serious Sikh's are. Same with beards. Beards for Muslims, some Jews and others are cultural. Not true of Sikhs. Christians can choose to wear a cross, but the Bible doesn't tell them to.
I agree with the ideal of unit uniformity and cohesion, but we also don't expect volunteer soldiers to drop their identity when they enlist. As long as these articles of faith don't interfere with their performance, I don't see the problem.
BTW, for those of you worried that this policy seems to leave Christians out, you obviously have not attended any military meetings or ceremonies, many of which feature a Christian prayer. The Air Force especially is very pro-Christian, to the extent that it's probably unconstitutional.
You have got to be sh#@$ing me. The liberals and PC police are turning this country into the laughing stock of the planet. The military is turning into a carnival side show and will soon get it's azz kicked at this rate. The US military has been kicking azz and taking names for 250 years. Why change it? Just STOP.
JohnQ you're right it doesn't. That is why I said, "limitations". There are SpecOp guys right now wearing beards and head covers. That is no excuse because they are the exception, but these turbans, for the standard military, would be allowed in certain settings. Wait until the regulations come out before you begin to protest. I am pretty sure the military has certain regs to follow with these changes. I am almost positive when these guys are in combat they are going to be required to wear a helmet vice a turban. That will be one of the regs.
JohnQ have you ever been in the military? Most regs come with rules.
Brian: The Church of Satin????? I don't think anything, you say, matters anymore.
@Chrstina Thompson
Is being a bitch a f*cking religion? Apparently you're the resident expert on the subject or otherwise you would have taken it in jest like everyf*cking body else. Or maybe you have something against gays- got bigotry? STFU.
Hey Medcorps- if you are in the military ,may i remind you your job is to follow orders and not to set policy. This Government is of , for and by the people . Uniforms are just that . uniform. no pedants or funny hats should be allowed. You joined of your own free will and are act according to the policies that are in place. Until your tour is up,just shut the phuck up and do what you're told. no more.
The stupidity of some of you is amazing. Are you truly that dumb to not know the difference between a religious icon and a KKK hood? Gay Pride flag?
Yep, I can see it now:
Someone in "our" military in military uniform wearing a "turban" going into a Taliban stronghold in Iraq or Afghanistan. That "turban" will deflect all those "bullets".
Heya, DOD.......MILITARY UNIFORMS ONLY. Wait a minute....was this Moochelle's idea ?
The so-called "DOD leaders" need to get their heads out of their arses.
Having a beard and wearing a turban (the Sikh members) should pose no problem with the current deployments in Iraq or Afghanistan. They'd appear Muslim (also has beards and wears turbans), so might be more accepted by many of the locals?
I do have to question the wisdom (not whether they should have the right or not) of a Jewish soldier wearing a piece of religious jewelry identifying them as a Jew in war zones that exist within predominately Muslim nations however. Basically, will they be targeted, as part of the general clash that exists between Muslims and Jews in the Middle East at large? Of course being in the US military, they're already a target for the insurgents. But could they become an additional target, due to all the Arab-Israeli conflicts we see outplayed in the region as well? The thought would be more to their safety, then anything else; given the religious tensions we see in the Middle East, and what in the way of violence has grown out of it.
By a like token though, a Muslim American, who is in the US military might be more accepted in a country like Afghanistan, because though from the US, they are of the same religion, so doesn't present the same situation as we see outplayed in the whole Arab-Israeli conflict that has been playing itself out for a long time now...
When I served you where NOT allowed to wear or do anything openly to differentiation yourself from others. This was done to permit unity.But in the same respect persons whom where in the navy could grow breads. So I can see the beards but the trubins no!!
When will the Military allow women to wear stiletto heels to war? No, the Military would not allow this. We could call this gender bias. Who care if I call it gender bias, the Mission is more important than
Why would the Military allow these people, that are so religiously zealous, wear their religious emblem, that in war, there is a possibility that they would not be loyal to the US Military but to their religious affiliation? The turban, the unshaven face are indicators to the enemy faced, that there is a brotherhood, higher than the cause being fought. If these people were not so zealous about their religion to the point of death, I would say 'Right On'.
Was it a Muslim Psychiatrist that shot 13 people on Military ground?
@phukker I have no problem with following orders. You join the military, serve a few years, and then you can talk to me. I'm just stating the truth. You're obviously just an other ignorant internet bully who thinks they are safe behind a computer screen.
It's funny that you all seem to think that everyone in the military is in a combat unit on the front lines somewhere. Or that someone who is in a combat unit on the front line somewhere is going to wear a turban instead of a helmet or keep his beard and risk his gas mask not sealing properly. This is why it's up to the unit commanders and depends on "military readiness, unit cohesion, good order and discipline, health and safety, or any other military requirement..."
Does it really make a difference if a person is wearing a cross, turban or carrying prayer beads if they're stationed in Ft. Benning, GA in an administrative position? My husband couldn't wear his wedding ring when he worked due to the risk of being shocked or getting his hand caught in machinery so he put it on his key ring while at work. Should everyone in the military be banned from wearing wedding rings then?
I'm sure all you good Christians freaking out about how this is the end of the world would be having even bigger hissy fits is the military banned ALL religious symbols, including crosses. Hypocrites.
Why would the Military allow these people, that are so religiously zealous, wear their religious emblem, that in war, there is a possibility that they would not be loyal to the US Military but to their religious affiliation?
Yeah, those darn Christians with their crosses and crucifixes. You never know if you can trust them.
@CaraSurfs Great point. I agree :)
med baby- at 60 many a moon has passed since my tour . you ever tried pulling ant of this sh!t in my day and you'd still be pushing dirt.
jrsquid, 13 years, mostly in soc. and yes there are some spec ops wearing turbans and beards, they are training islamics to fight as a unit in a force multiplier role. They are not working anywhere near a military installation and use their apparel to blend in. They are not in active combat, but are still in serious danger. I would have rather had my armor any day rather than the thoub, but for the day to day blending in is for survival. When I wore BDUs I had to keep my sleeves rolled down at all times because I had tattoos, I think its ridiculous to allow some to wear bears and a turban. I feel sorry for anyone who serves under this Major in the story, though I doubt he will ever lead anyone.
The job isn't about individuality, its about conformity, if someone cant handle that, or it doesn't suit them, they shouldn't be in. Its a volunteer force, but in no way shape or form is it "owed" to them to let them stay in.
carasurfs- yes it does matter at ft benning or Lawson army air field. it matter because it is the roots of discipline, and unit cohesion. Commands are going to have to add to their deployment orders "no turbans, bring your helmets" and worry that some idiot who cant follow basic military protocol and customs will not screw it up. Its an unnecessary distraction on an already complicated and dangerous mission (bringing people back alive). If you don't know what its like being in the military, or couldn't conform while you were in, you will never understand the real issues at hand, which is far more than what someone looks like in a formation.
When I was in the Navy we could wear a necklace, whether it was a crucifix, simple cross or Star of David, provided it was not visible while wearing any uniform. The same went for tattoos, though they really were considered "destruction of government property." Lots of military men, and women for that matter, had tattoos on their arms which were certainly visible while in a short-sleeved uniform shirt. Some with tattoos would wear a long-sleeved shirt while on watch.
This article clearly stated that beards and turbans could not interfere with the wearing of gas masks or helmets, etc. The request could, theoretically, be denied. That was one of the reasons beards were eliminated in the first place.
To IndianaEngineer,
The "I pay taxes so I pay your salary" argument is tired. Soldiers pay taxes also so does that mean they are self-employed? Have you targeted your taxes to a specific service member? I respect your right to an opinion but paying taxes in and of itself does not grant that right. The Constitution and your status as a citizen of this county grant you that right.....and the service member is one of the primary reasons you have that right.
Good thing I know how to clean myself off and tactfully fight back and protect myself :) You're not worth my time anymore phukker.
crap cant edit it now, but Jrsquid, we are fighting for the same side here. And all rules are regs, and all regs are rules, they mean the same thing. There are customs and courtesies, those are different. Policies and procedures, also different.
70% of the soldiers who won the Revolution had no uniforms and were rag tag militia that came together to fight and WIN. According to Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution, we are allowed a standing Navy in peacetime and war time, but no standing Army in peacetime, and in wartime they must be renewed by Congress every 2 years. No one even cares our perpetual standing Army is unconstitutional (and have been brainwashed that it's about defense to have one).
I say, "who cares?!" Let the military decide these issues, and stfu about it if you aren't in the military active duty. I'm more worried about sticking to the rule of law (the Constitution) when we're in peacetime than what uniforms people wear, or do not wear. It has no real bearing on winning wars...it's just a psychological ploy to strip them of their individuality. That may have some little effect on cohesiveness of the unit, but overall it never lost any wars for us to not have that national uniform before the late 19th century and early 20th century when we started this unconstitutional standing army in peacetime crap.
You guys seem more concerned with aesthetics than ending these long wars that long since ceased to be defensive (empire building is not defense, and that's what it became after about 2 years in Afghanistan).
Served in the Army proudly for a decade and a half through 3 combat tours. Glad I am out now because it is just getting plain silly in there. The military should be all about DISCIPLINE and UNIFORMITY! You are NOT an individual, you ARE a NUMBER, a SOLDIER! You are given orders and you CARRY THEM OUT! You are NOT in the military to show your individuality or to bitch, groan, whine, and moan. It is called SERVICE to your country, SACRIFICE for a REASON! I remember when they first started issuing "stress cards" to soldiers in basic training. If you can't handle the stress of BASIC TRAINING you should get a BOOT to the ASS out the door! Combat is MUCH more stressful and Sgt's in the field should not have to put up with whiny little moaners like you that should've been weeded OUT in basic.
The newer, kinder, gentler, politically correct, BS military of today is showing the WEAKNESS of our country in general.......
Brian-2560830...(#1.52)... "I the church of Satin reconized by the military?"
Well, being that the Church of Silk and the Church of Leather & Lace and the Church of Seersucker are recognized by the military, I would venture a guess that the Church of Satin is too....
Cuckoo, Cuckoo, Cuckoo....I'm Cuckoo for Coco-Puffs
To phukker,
So, did you have an opinion at My Lai when you were told to shut up and do what you were told? Sorry, based on your age I assumed you're possibly a Vietnam era service member or a hollow 70s era service member that was drafted. Just picking on you.
I agree that soldiers should follow orders; I just retired after 29yrs in the Army but a good soldier often offers alternatives before saluting and executing. The all volunteer military is slightly different, for better or worse.
ProIndv - it also says:To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions, yet we have wide open borders in practice, and the responsibility is now the states responsibility, as long as approved by the feds.
Art1sec8 says: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years. so you cant budget the army for 5 years in advance, its got to be more frequent. It specifically mentions peace time nay because It was illegal to have a naval force under the British to protect shipping, and to ensure it would be funded even when it didn't appear to have a need during peace; Not specifically mentioning Army doesn't mean it is forbidden, it means it was naturally expected of the legislative branch to organize an army.
Jerry,
How, exactly, is a gay person able to fit in your faucet?
Everyone Else,
That being said. I tend to lean towards protecting the rights of individuals, HOWEVER, this being the military, some of those rights are depleted when you join.
I guess, on this issue, it would depend on the situation. If they're at a desk, or state side, and it wouldn't conflict with their readiness to protect themselves or others, I say it's okay. Obviously, I think the standards for being in the field, would be different. We need to make sure it doesn't interfere, with any gear they need to protect themselves or others.
Well someone's going to make money...ACU Burkas...ACU Turbins...etc.
Let that Muslims poke his head around the corner with that rug on his head & K-BOOM......
Oh hell, someone had to bring up homosexuality, now all of the activists are going to show up and this discussion is going to change from "uniformity and religion in the military" to a "homosexual rights" discussion...
Sarah is already here!!!
*siiiiiiiiiiigh*
Hi Pro--
Thanks again for the history lesson-- yet I am curious about the "peace time crap"-- when exactly did this peace time take place? The other night the lesson was on how the United States has it's nose in every ones business, and if we would just stay home 9/11 would never have happened. (9/11 Commission Report--I have now read it).
I, for one, think we should be fighting in tye-dye's, peace signs and long hair-- yet that is not the United States Military, perhaps the well armed militia will be fighting in that attire.
The ones fighting in tye-dye's, peace signs and long hair wouldn't be a very effective fighting force. They would all be high and jonesing for Doritos and laughing all the time while trying to kill the enemy with middle fingers and vulgarity because they don't believe in guns.
In short, they would all get slaughtered......
I find it interesting that of those posters who have served in the military, none have mentioned that the guys at the top from whom they are supposed to willingly take orders, changed the rules. The rules are different now, and your superior officers made them so. What's the problem?
There's no problem. Those of us who are no longer serving are free to express our opinions as much as we want...we earned it. Those of us who still serve don't have to like it, they just have to follow the regs....where's the problem?
I don't think this is such a good idea for any military to allow anything that allows one soldier to distinguish himself from others based on his religious beliefs. That is nuts.
I find it very hard to swallow, 3,700 muslims in the military.. Now how many would you say, are jihadists?
Well, the first problem I see is that you seem to believe in the notion that one must "earn" the right to have an opinion.
People like Todd and medcorps have said it best [lead the way, gentlemen]--people with no real exposure to military life and/or combat should probably qualify their remarks with, "Well, based on what I've seen in the movies...." or "According to Jimmy Carter or Hillary Clinton...." so that we know where to file such comments per credibility and relevance.
People like phukker and the other really angry Vietnam vet.....*been there, done that* with uncontrolled and long-festering PTSD (from sneaky sh!t elsewhere, not in SE Asia), and I strongly urge you to get help, get the hate out of your system (yeah, it gives you those recurring adrenalin surges but you can actually live without them!), and get back to living a life with some occasional deep joy in it. Life is really short, and you're wasting what you've been very fortunate to have the chance to still clean up. Can you handle it? The clock is ticking.
As for you ignorant racists, bigots, and false-Christians.....you're as stupid as the Islamist extremists who think their view of reality is the only reality. I just enjoy watching you guys squirm and sputter away as all your power fades into the past. Especially the old guys (my age!) who only want to squawk but don't lend LOTS of support (that includes LISTENING!) to young people who, regardless of what some may say, need it badly. Unless you're helping with actions, your armchair opinions just don't count. Bye-bye.
No. This is only going to open the door for pandering and catering to the cry babies who want to "idealize" the military. People forget, the military serves a very specific function. When people try to impose their political correctness into the military they diminish its effectiveness.
I know we feel like we are invincible in the world with all our cool gadgets, but the truth is, we are vulnerable. We are always vulnerable, and we need an effective military which can repel any threat at the drop of a hat. We don't need all this fluff and frill to make the military appear more "acceptable" in the eyes of the general public.
If you cannot live the military life-style or conform its standards. THEN DO NOT JOIN. It's a volunteer force. Everyone who is there went in knowing what would be expected of them, they should be more willing to fulfill their commitment and keep their word to uphold the standards.
n
Nuadormrac 1.63....Sikh do indeed wear turbans. Muslims wear a garment called a taqiyah or kufi (amongst other names depending on the sect) which is a small skull cap. The two items are different in appearance. The Muslim skull cap is known by different names based on sect and locality. It does not look like a Sikh turban. What you are referring to as a turban is actually a smagh which is worn while in the desert to keep sand out of the face. It is not a turban.
As a military spouse to an active duty member, I'm throwing in my two cents. The military is not a place to practice individualism. In order to have cohesion and obedience amongst the troops, at ALL levels, there needs to be conformity. While in uniform and on duty (which for some job descriptions is all the time) you need to look and act the part of a soldier. You joined to serve the United States of America and your uniform should reflect that while you are wearing it. I do not think it wise that different identifiers are allowed based on religious declarations. Someone will always be pushing the envelope in their direction. While some MOS's (jobs) allow for disguise - Think SOF (Spec Ops) and those involved in interrogation activities, those are the exception rather than the rule. Soldiers should be uniform in their appearance. I do NOT want to look at a service member in uniform and be able to tell what religion, sexual preference, likes or dislikes are based on "tells' like religious symbols (this includes ALL symbols, crucifix, star of David etc), tattoos, etc. All I want to know about them is their ability to serve and protect the Constitution of the United States of America.
LOL Brian35897--
I know, I was having a flash back to Woodstock....
I support our troops and would sincerely like to have them home... Yet I believe in the discipline needed to do the job these men and woman sign up to do, and religious beliefs should not be a factor in the uniformity of the United States Military...
My X is/was a Marine sniper-- how can the target be distinguished if friendlies are dressing like the enemy-- I looked thru his night vision equipment.. not an easy job.....
Old military haircut line in basic training.... buzzz NEXT! buzzz NEXT! buzzz NEXT! buzzz NEXT! buzzz NEXT!
New military haircut line in basic training..... Just a little off the top please.. snip. Mohawk please sir.. snip snip. Don't touch my hair its against my religion... ok next. White heterosexual Christian male? BUUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! NEXT! Can I keep my Justin Beiber bangs please? Sure... Next...
-.-
Colour Me Free
You took the comment in good humor and I appreciate that.. it was obviously meant to draw a few chuckles... I laughed to myself when I typed it because I was imagining what that platoon would actually look like....
Big mistake! This is a secular country and military personnel are government employees.
There is more harm than good done by pandering to religious symbolism. It only serves to divide us.
It's time to actually be a secular society instead of just giving lip service to that ideal.
@ProIndividual-3906907
Incorrect. Having a standing army is not unconstitutional. Funding it for more than 2 years at a time IS. Thus the yearly Appropriations Bill. But nice try and thanks for playing.
kaybeetoys
So now we should be a secular society? The government is NOT society. Our society is a FREE one that INCLUDES the freedom to worship and be proud of that worship. Our government is secular NOT to force society to be secular, but to ensure that decisions are made with neutrality for people of all religious preferences INCLUDING those that have no religion.
Soldiers should be uniform in the services because they serve ALL of the people and as such, should demonstrate the same neutral fairness through their appearances and actions as the government they supposedly represent.
Get your head straight!
vermontguy must live with his head in the sand. Twice last year the Military has been caught with training materials that say all Catholics, Evangelical Christians, pro-life people are dangerous extremists to be guarded against. The head of the Department of Defense section on religious freedom is a seriously active anti-Christian atheist. Vermontguy may hide his head in the sand the rest of us are wide awake.
medcorps
The military represents the USA, the USA believes in free speech (something the military PROTECTS). You can request we stay out of it, but we don't HAVE to. If it involves the USA, it IS our business, whether or not we sign up to go to war. The constitution gives us that right. You are not above the constitution.
Jerry-1927474
What destruction?! America is better now than it was 50 years ago, and will be better 50 years from now than it is now.
You've bought into the fears and lies. I have a bridge I can sell you.
As they should. The rich have been taking advantage of the poor for far too long.
That isn't anything new. That's about 50 years of old news. If it didn't destroy us in the sixties, it won't destroy us now.
The only ones fighting a religious war are the religious. I am happy to say I don't buy into ANY cult, including christianity-or any of their religious wars.
Homosexuality will never destroy the country. That is more silly bigoted hysteria.
I would abort either sex of fetus because I don't want a kid. If I never tell you if I have an abortion, you will never know if it did or did not affect your life.
Come back to reality please.
Todd-651965
We got what medcorps was saying, we just don't agree with that outlook.
navy dad-8122535
Maybe liberals are turned off by the scandal of rape in the military. Fix that and liberal enlistment may go UP. Then again a lot of liberals are AGAINST war, so those ones probably won't sign up. The fact remains that there ARE liberals in the military whether or not you want to acknowledge it.
bibol
Your nasty misogyny will earn you no points. Physical standards should be lowered, and the arms our military are given should be upgraded. There is nothing at all lost in the strength of our military by doing that.
medcorps
We don't have to serve to talk to you. Get off your high horse. Normally I thank people for their service. Not in this case. You obviously forgot all you were taught about our constitution and the very first amendment.
Philip-1848375
Which means they should be the LAST people saying we need to shut up-they exist to PROTECT the rights/safety of USA citizens, and saying otherwise is simply STUPID.
To my knowledge, religious emblems have always been allowed. They are worn under the uniform. I don't think anyone has a problem with that. What I do have an issue with is the wearing of beards and turbans. It is not a part of the uniform. But I guess you need to take into consideration why the turban is worn. In the Sikh religion it is a part of the religion for it to be worn and it is in the religion that you must have the beard as well. That being said, the bottom line is, this effects individuals IN the military and perhaps they should ask those serving how they feel about the guy or girl standing next to them wearing a different hat or wearing a beard. Personally, I'm agnostic and feel religion just complicates our world and is a load of fairytales that have caused wars and millions of deaths. But I don't have all the answers to the universe and admit I am ignorant to what is really out there. So I'm not sure how I feel about this and I think we need to leave it up to those who serve, but again, it should be a decision made by those IN the military, unfortunately, it's not a democracy at the Pentagon and the enlisted don't get a vote. I think that's going to be a problem. I do foresee this becoming an issue though. Many people need to let go of the mentality that the U.S. is a Christian nation built on Christian values. Our Constitution clearly states that we have Freedom of Religion (so as not to be persecuted for your beliefs)-NOT Freedom from Religion, but it also states separation of Religion & State. So perhaps it's high time we all learn to be more understanding and accepting of others differences. Though I'm still not sure how this will effect those who need to have each others backs when lives are on the line. Maybe it should come from character and trust built during boot camp.
I didn't say you MUST "earn" the right to have an opinion, but thank you for putting words in my mouth. You don't have to earn it...we earned it for you.
BS, the US military is a great example of how a country can be largely secular and accepting of all religious practices that don't unnecessarily compromise their mission or personnel safety.
You didn't serve did you?
Air Force Wife in post 1.95 and Colour Me Free in post 1.96 make very valid points.
This is a mistake of biblical proportions, a parting of the Red Sea sized error.
Man I don't put many people on ignore at all (and usually remove the ignore after a few weeks) because I do believe in free speech and like to treat these discussions like face to face conversations (for the most part). Everyone deserves to be heard no matter how silly I think they are.
But that is IT! ih8yourh8 is on ignore..
No one in their right mind would enjoy listening to 8 paragraphs of combined rants to every single commentator that he/she/it disagreed with from all of the postings above. This person is SEETHING with hatred and even their name insinuates hypocrisy!
Time to hit this one with a well earned ban hammer!
Ol_Doc is not ignored.. I have argued with him. Queenie isn't ignored.. I have argued with her... Hell even Skrekk isn't ignored... Lord KNOWS I have argued with him.
This ignore is well earned......
notice that the very first comment is some liar telling lies to push the agenda of the extremist, fake christian agenda of the "persecution of christians" when they are the ones doing the persecuting
Brian35897---
I chuckled as well, it was a silly statement for me to make... just making a point, as I am what my sons call a Hippie!!!
markwills
One thing I do notice is how you have just as much of an agenda and are just as much an extremist by looking at one person and then claiming all Christians "they" are persecuting others. Hypocrite much?
Sorry, I have not performed any female circumcissions. I have not murdered my sister for my families honor because she was raped. I have not strapped dynamite to myself and blown myself up in the name of my god at a crowded restaurant. Neither have I flown any planes into buildings or blown up any subways. I have not hung, beaten, or harmed in any way anyone that was homosexual in the name of my god. I don't force non-believers of my faith to pay an infidel tax. Nor am I currently plotting to terrorize the winter Olympics in Russia. I also have not shot any 14 year old school girls in the face in the name of my god.
I am Christian... we don't do those things.. those things are called persecution.
OMG. U.S. Army Spc. Simran Lamba's religion doesn't allow him to remove his turban, but he will have no trouble killing people?
Several expressions of Free Speech are denied to persons in the military. I would think that a uniform dress code could be enforced. The volunteer army has made conscientious objectors passe, but I believe Spc. Lamba DID voluntarily enlist knowing the rules, right?
If you do not know what the armed forces will require of you, don't enlist. If you know and disagree with the rules, don't enlist. If you know and enlist, follow the rules!
To Ih8yourH8,
So based on your reply, a soldier has no rights? They're not protected by the Constitution? They're beneath all others since they swear an Oath to uphold and protect the Constitution?
I'm sorry, but what have you done other than being born in the USA to earn the right to spout your opinion. My point was paying taxes alone does not grant that right. Illegals pay local taxes every time they make a purchase at a store. Does that give them the right to question how the USA spends money?
They do exist to serve and protect...just like police officers and firefighters. But who exists to protect them from the likes of you? If you are not CURRENTLY serving and are simply commenting because you have a keyboard then your opinion should be expressed via ballot but do not insult those serving.
Colour Me Free
I much more closely resembe a hippie these days than a soldier....Long hair, goatee and mustache, live in the woods, love nature, have been "forced" by my hippe friends since I got out to partake of the Shire's Pipe Weed... etc etc....
But even though I live free now with only trappings of my military past to remind me of my service and my love for my country, (like my mounted fruit salad rack) I do believe the Military should remain its own beast. It is a harsh life for the harshest of realities. Wussifying it is to our countries detriment.
"...I agree with the ideal of unit uniformity and cohesion, but we also don't expect volunteer soldiers to drop their identity when they enlist. As long as these articles of faith don't interfere with their performance, I don't see the problem..."
Beg to differ, but that's exactly what the military expects. You check your personal identify at the door when you hit basic training. If they wanted you to wear something, they'd issue it to you. I don't have a problem with someone believing in what they believe in, but it can't be a part of the uniform. It can not be seen. everyone dresses the same. Hence the term UNIFORM.
I'll correct it for you: As long as their article of faith doesn't interfere with their military uniform, then I don't have a problem with it. So, If you have a special headdress you need to wear, it better fit under the standard issue military hat and helmut. want to wear a necklace; under the shirt. Tatoo? hidden under the clothing.
The biggest issue I have with this is that these things come out AFTER the person is in the military. You know going in what is going on. There is no religion in the military. meaning they don't care about your religion. But the military does not bend to YOUR beliefs....at least it didn't used to. You VOLUNTEERED TO CONFORM TO THE RULES. yOU KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE WHEN YOU GET IN. shortly after you get to basic training, if you didn't know before, you know then and there. if you had a problem with the rules, raise the issue then and they will let you out.
Alas...as with the rest of America, I'm sure the military will wilt to the pressure and relax the DRESS CODE for those who don't want to conform or those that are allowed to put THEIR personal interests above those of the units. ...this is a very bad thing. So much for unit cohesion..
however, DISPLAYING OF ANY Christian OR Jewish SYMBOLS IS FORBIDDEN,dept. OF defense DIRECTIVE, 2012.
Brian---
"wussifying it is to our countries detriment"--- I agree.
War is not what I want nor desire, it tears lives apart. Our troops, and the countries they are fighting 'in'! It is an institution and a reality (a life style signed up for).
Freedom of religion is a right guaranteed by the Constitution, that the Federal Government can not prosecute/persecute an individual for practicing said religion... as is Freedom of Speech...
No where does the Constitution state that we can/should cater to different religions because of their religious restriction, especially regarding dress-- It is the United States Military, dress code is what it is....
P.S. I grew up on a farm, river bottom property--- would not call it the woods, yet it was heaven..trees galore.. home grown is now a thing of the past....
So you are not in favor of employees having religious rights? You would rather have the employer say what the employee can and can not have?
When I was on terminal leave from the Army, I had been enjoying my freedom for nearly 2 weeks when I actually got called back to the unit to sign some paperwork that had been delayed. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back then (2008) you were still expected to maintain a military appearance even when on leave, and technically this even applied to your final terminal leave, by the regs... When I showed up with a Goatee on my face to sign the paperwork (in civilian clothes) my Plt Sgt asked me "Sgt. whats that shlt on your face?" I rubbed my beard and chuckled and said,"This? This.. Sgt. is called... FREEDOM!". He tossed the paperwork at me laughing and said hurry up and sign this and get away before someone makes me pretend to get angry at you...".
It's just a part of that life, and since it is a volunteer Army.. you VOLUNTEERED for it. This means, by defacto, that you ACCEPT that life. Soldiers sacrifice a lot more on the battlefield than just facial hair and fancy hats.....
Lives, limbs, family, and sanity are 4 things that come immediately to my mind.
The Military ATTACKS Christians and put LIMITS on what Chaplains can say and do BUT allows Muslims, Sheiks and mostly Middle Eastern to do as they wish. Obama's FRIENDS the Islamist are given free rein. If the attacks on Christians continue, ALL Christians should leave the U.S. Military.
things have certainly changed since I served in the day. That's for sure.
That person is just being a bully Mr. Philip. I know I protect the constitution.
Regardless of the fact that we have the right to free speech, the military changing THEIR OWN uniform regulations does not require the involvement of civilians or their opinions. People can't get mad at that. It still does not make sense to care about what other people outside of the military have to say about it. It's our uniform not theirs. If those people want our country to look better then they need to stop being ignorant, uncivilized, internet bullies and get up and serve this country in some way and those around them.
I agree with what you are saying Mr. Philip! :)
We're talking about potential uniform changes that might be made by people who will NOT care about what someone outside of the military thinks or has to say.
We see eye to eye on this Colour Me Free.
I was raised in rural Alabama surrounded by cow pasture... I live in North Carolina now in a large 100 year old log house on the side of a mountain. I have been in many cities due to my service, bases are always located near them, but I would never live there by choice. If a promotion and a pay raise at my current job meant I would have to move back to the city, I would decline in a heartbeat with no thought at all.
Some things are worth waaaaaay more than money. Space, privacy, and the color green are three such things to me.
First it was proved that the Christian religion could be stomped out of the military. Completely eradicated.
Then it was proved that any religion BUT the Christian could force the military to allow them concessions to flaunt their beliefs... and, okay, we'll allow the Christians to do so as well since it would be bigoted of us not to.
Hypocrites. Cowards. Two faced yellow backs.
And I am NOT a Christian. But this is bull@!$%# of the highest order.
America, you are rotting from the inside out, and the First People cry for you.
I hear you Brian--
My life flipped in 2007 and then took another hit in 2009... we live, learn and make choices. I choose the path less traveled. What others see as normal-- I see as 'why the hell would I want to do that?!'
Nice chatting with you--- the market is about to close, and I have numbers running--- I gamble, but make my own odds.....
Reading many of your posts Doc i know your heart is in the right place but when you make comments like this, you are going to get blowback in here.
The uniform is yours but at the behest of the people of the USA. You are choosing to serve, you are putting the uniform on but the American people are putting it on you. The American people pay your salary and for the kit you need to do your job so you need to learn to cut them a little slack from time to time.
A bunch of old dead guys, a lot smarter than you or i came up with the fact that our military is a civilian controlled entity and it's worked better than most for over 200 years.
Thanks for your service Doc and be safe!
Semper Fi
mailman8
The Sikhs are historically great warriors - we are lucky to have them in our military. I would suggest forming all-Sikh units, including the officers. Then they would be uniform (as in similar in appearance) throughout the unit. The esprit would be outstanding - the sharp point of the spear.
We already have them...They're called United States Marines...
Semper Fi to you too Jon. I don't know if you are still in the military, but the only people the people who are considering making the uniform changes ACTUALLY listen to, are the people in the military.
People in the military DO pay taxes, too. It seems as if though people on here forget that or don't know that.
People just need to be realistic, that at the end of the day, the people making the decision won't care because it's the military's uniform.
If (as the new rules require) the religious item does not interfere with the mission, etc., then who cares? These people are serving our country, whether they be cooks or computer programmers or infantry.
And Jerry, the end of our precious American society is much more likely to be brought about by the disappearance of the ability to write coherently than it is by allowing people who aren't like you to continue to be not like you, even in the military. If you get lucky enough to type it correctly into the Google, someday you might look up "the decline of the Indus Valley civilization." It could happen here and, in fact, I believe we're pretty much watching it before our eyes.
Brian35897,
First I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading your posts and especially your humorous posts. Also nice choice in a state to settle as N.C. is truly fantastic. Boone, Hickory, Lenoir, Grandfather Mountain (I wish that they still offered jumping off the mountain strapped to a big kite as my Pops used to love that and I do it elsewhere), Blowing Rock my the list goes on and on, but I have to give a shout to Statesville BBQ as that's some fine swine :)
Try not to be to hard on ih8yourh8 while I often disagree with her and I just had my own run in and argument with her recently. She is a deep, warm, sensitive, thoughtful person that really cares about others.
Again ih8yourh8 is not a friend of mine and in fact she doesn't like me at all but I would be remiss if I didn't point out what I finally observed in our exchange. We just have some very different views on some things but she can be very kind as well.
Thanks for all you do and thanks for sharing with us Sir.
Have a blessed day
Perhaps you should look up Sikh history before you make rash statements. The Sikhs have gone war with the British twice, I believe the Chinese once and Muslims several times. If they feel compelled they'll go to war.
I personally don't like the idea of military public displays of religious paraphernalia but unfortunately it's not my call.
We are of the same mind Doc, i'm not arguing with you as much as attempting to impart some wisdom from a guy who served a long time ago. Long enough ago that our weapons were two creator issued rock chuckers. ;-)
Our Corpsman were some of the most selfless, brave SOB's i ever met. We loved those guys! Nothing but respect for the job you are doing.
Oh you poor suffering member of the religious majority. Where in the article did you read that Christians wouldn't be allowed to wear their paraphernalia?
2FAST4U1701
I'm not being hard on her, not in my opinion. I just can't stand it when a person rebuffs, rants, and argues with 45 (yes slight exaggeration) people in one post. That sort of thing is not having a discussion but more like standing on a soap box shouting at everyone you disagree with. If she was the warm caring person you say she is, wouldn't her name be more like "IluvYouEvenThoughYouh8"?
Bah, besides like I said, I never leave anyone on ignore long... unlike some people I come here to discuss things, voice opinions, and yes, to argue with the opposition. All of the people here that DO ignore everyone else that differs in opinion with them, or even argues with them, are getting no use out of the Vine except to take turns nodding their heads at the others here that are just like them.
Those types are the epitome, the perfect example of a closed mind. And strangely, they are also the first ones that accuse others of being that way......
Oh, and thanks for the compliments... and I do love my mountains....
Brian and 2Fast:
Asheville has a few things going for it, and while it's been about 30+ years since I spent any time there, I remember some deeply wooded areas south of Charlotte, around Rock Hill, Davidson and a college whose name I can't remember just now. It started with a W if I'm remembering correctly. Near Lake Wylie.
I've recently started ignoring anyone -- no matter their opinions -- if they call public figures by baby names. I don't mind splashing around in the pool, just not in the kiddie pool.
Man I don't even want to think about it. When it hit's the fan again between Israel and the Arab countries, I'm sure the US Soldiers wearing Kippahs and the ones wearing Kufis will be getting along just fine...
Especially as the casualties start piling up.
operor vestri officium
Yeah, like I said Ol_Doc... I am glad I am out. The PC crap was getting nearly unbearable when I was still in back in 08. It has been getting worse ever since. I literally pity the modern Sgt. today.
They will be so busy paying attention to every single word they say and every single little thing they do that it will end up causing more stress in the rear than in the actual combat zones.
The rear will be hell.. the front will be a vacation (well, except the bullets, IED's, mortars, yada yada....)
Ol_Doc, Exactly how did you earn me my right to an opinion. Or do you think you earned me my right to free speech. You did neither.
RonB from Pittsburgh
I live 15 miles out from Asheville.
joemike404
Anyone who has ever served has PAID for your rights with sacrifice, blood, sweat, and tears. Begininning with those that served in the Revolutionary War.
Just the facts................
That's why Veteran's Day and Memorial Day are NATIONAL holidays......
You are right in that I didn't; I've never served in combat. But judging by some of the countries we've fought in the past and their ideologies I'm pretty sure you would have nothing resembling free speech under Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, or at the time...the British Crown. The Declaration of Independence may have declared you free...the Constitution may have described your freedom but it was those willing to defend that freedom that allowed you to inherit your free speech...enjoy it!
So is military wear now going to be called "suggested dress code"? They sure as hell can't call it a "uniform" any more.
Brian and Doc, You know, I just spent about 10 minutes writing a response to explain my point of view. But it occurs to me that neither of you want to or would understand it. With freedom of speech comes the right NOT to say something, so I will avail myself of that right. Thanks for your service and have a good evening.
I suppose the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) should also be changed to the Casual Code of Military Suggestions....
Brian,
"I suppose the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) should also be changed to the Casual Code of Military Suggestions..."
No. That would never work. You would have to get Congress to make that change, and everyone knows that Congress can't do anything at all. Too much partisan bickering!
joemike404
Also paid for by the sacrifices of our vets. The 5th. They do swear to defend the Constitution and all.
Thank you for enjoying and using your freedoms.. that is also very important.
Make sure you vote.
Brian, your arrogance and self-righteousness is an embarrassment.
USAF 1973-80, we all wore the same green fatigues and hats or ball caps designating our squadron, it worked !!!!...everyone got along fine + the whole purpose behind basic training is to break down individuality and to learn to work as a team , since almost everyone with in the unit comes from a different place for the most part ,different backgrounds(urban,suburban,subrural,rural)socioeconomic status, no one stands out , except the ones performing to the task at that given moment, everyone was equal and everyone looked pretty much alike..off duty that is where you regained SOME of your individuality, as long as you were with in the UCMJ....
but I did wear a lucky charm on my dog tag chain , it was one of those novelty brass star pendants you get from an arcade machine a buddy gave me and "1 each" to the rest of our little "band of brothers" that had an engraving that said *phuck the air force*...no one ever said anything to me about it, but then when it was inspection time for deployments, I'd stashed it for a bit , since I KNEW it wasn't allowed then put it back on when the coast was clear....sssssh...still have it on my key chain
I would not want to serve in any branch or be a part of this modern military social experiment....the mission is becoming blurred by political correctness and by government officials who have never served that are setting these foolish policies...the problem is ? NONE OF THEM !!!!! SEEM TO BE LISTENING TO THOSE WHO HAVE SERVED IN THOSE SHOES AND TO WHAT THEY(WE) ARE SAYING...the way these fools are running this country & the military like its a dumbass professor moron type social experiment for a doctorial thesis, the closer to the down fall and we become the late great USA, it is already only a shell of its once upon a time greatness when it comes to integrity and morality ..if you can't see it, then your either going thru life with your eyes wide shut or you're part of the problem
Brian: My son is at Warren Wilson.
The rear will be hell.. the front will be a vacation
That's what she said. ;/
Religion is so silly. People believing that wearing fetishes and magical clothing will appease gods, spooks and hobgoblins.
@Brian35897
Sorry pal, the 'Uniform' in the UCMJ has nothing to do with clothing.
Wouldn't it be nice if people would just keep their religion to themselves - private, rather than wearing it on their sleeves, or on their heads, or on their chins, or around their necks? Imagine.
Why was Prayer taken out of schools?
It was said to have separation of State and Religion. Why is a form of religion being introduced into an area, the Military, that should be neutral in every facet of it's activity?
The MISSION, should be the only agenda..........Protection of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Don't like this, go work in your Religious Organization and Dress anyway you like.
Look...bottom line is this. Just because our military is all volunteer does not give the individual soldier (the word "soldier" is used to encompass ALL service members in any branch; active or reserve; officers and enlisted) the right to expect exceptions to the military dress code based on proclaimed religion or any other professed cultural or social associations. The military absolutely values the individual person and supports individual religious choices and now with the repeal of DADT, same sex relationships. (News FLASH: MOST military members didn't care if their co-workers were homosexual. We all knew who was gay and not once was it ever an issue. It was the government and a few uppity-ups that made it so difficult...anyway...I digress).
If a soldier wishes to wear an emblem that symbolizes their faith, hobby, orientation whatever, it should be discreet and worn under their uniform, not to be exposed at all while wearing said uniform. There are very specific guidelines for personal hygiene and appearance and those guidelines serve a purpose. It keeps everyone looking sharp, equal, disciplined, and on the ready should they need to deploy.
I respect the Sikh's/Muslims/Christians/Buddhist's/Druids/Wicken's/Jews/Agnostics/Atheist's and so on (no personal slight intended if I didn't mention your personal following) that choose to serve. I respect that their faith has rules for the devout. However, if you join the military to serve, you follow the rules that the UCMJ has elected to adopt. When you hang up your uniform for the last time, you may then begin to become a nonconformist to military standards. I'm certain that your chosen deity will understand since after all you were serving and protecting your fellow man.
What's next?? Will Muslim women in the military (I suspect that the number is relatively small) demand that they be permitted to wear a burqa or a hijab? Once you begin to allow nonconformity to creep in, it's very hard to take back what was given. Again, you will find a few who will push and push until someday the Military will have "Casual Friday's" and everyone can dress as they please. If that day ever comes, we will be so done with the military. It won't be something I can be proud of.
Oh, and before I forget...in an earlier post someone mentioned that prayer in the Air Force before a function borders on being unconstitutional. How so? First of all, the prayer is addressed to "God".... I think that's pretty ambiguous. Your "god" can be anything or anyone you wish it to be. You are not required to bow your head in prayer or participate at all if you don't want too. For those people who find prayer an important part of their life, it's a refreshing change from the sterility and absence we find in society today. For those whom prayer is not an important part of their life, it is a few moments to reflect and appreciate being gathered amongst your peers who share the same passion for this country as you do. The prayer is not an indoctrination or an endorsement, it usually signals the start of the event and is a welcome message to all in attendance and for those who aren't with us that evening.
RonB from Pittsburgh,
Thanks my love of North Carolina and her wonderful people and amazing food is way to long to list.
Charlotte, Raleigh, hot summer nights at Hickory Motor Speedway, Bojangles, Shoney's, Rockingham, Bar B-Q-King, Greensboro and lovely ladies with charming accents all everywhere. I almost feel guilty as I always leave a bunch out.
I have never been to Asheville but will add it to my list as I hope to get down next year and maybe visit including Bat Cave River Cottages if possible. Blue Ridge Mountains Range on Horseback is truly amazing especially at sunrise with a smoky mist and all.
Also love PA's Alleghany Mountains though they seem like hills at times compared to the Smoky Blue Ridge Pittsburgh looks like a set of crown jewels at night from I76. If you are ever in Somerset git on down to Frank's Pizza as the pie is great and I could do shots of the Sunday Gravy or just chug the whole darn pot. Also a little restaurant called Lamonica's Restaurant not far from where the Miners were rescued that was really good and people warm and friendly (Pops said the town was troopers after the accident as his first visit was when it occurred the whole town rallied and pitched in to raise relief funds for the families and first responders yet a young boy still fell in live and gushed over his Blackbird LS1 T/A) Pretty cool racetrack in the area also though it has been some time since we were there.
I hope to get up to the Burgh and see a Pirates game next year since I am not waiting for Hell to Freeze over in order for both them and the Tribe to meet in the Series :)
You have a wonderful evening and thanks for bringing back some memories of nice places, good folks and down home food
brian35897,
not all christians by any means, but there is a distinct, sizable minority subset that is intent on twisting the narrative to fit their agenda of taking control of this country and turning it into a theocracy, even as they claim persecution. the same people that claim "freedom of religion" while they would deny any freedom to anyone that doesn't think as they do.
an example of good, very conservative christians would be the Amish. they are extremely conservative and extremely religious, yet they wouldn't dream of trying to impose their belief system on the rest of us. nor would I impose on them. this is not so true of many of these newer "politically active" evangelists and other groups that are part of the "christian dominionist movement"
People are looking at this like everyone is all of the sudden going to start looking like clowns. If they were actually CURRENTLY in the military they would realize that the religious items would match the uniform in color/print or be a subtle, down to earth color like THEY ARE NOW.
People need to open their minds and actually think for once.
Someone is not going to be allowed to wear a multi, vibrant colored hijab or turban or big and chunky religious jewelry that is visible in uniform. Everything will look neat and professional, notloud, big, and obnoxious to some people.
Hello!!!!!!!
That was precisely my point, Brian. This new ruling achieves the opposite effect. Get your own head straight.
Open borders is NOT what we have, or we'd have LEGAL immigration and very little ILLEGAL immigration. You think black markets are equivalent to free markets?
Also, the Founders wanted NO immigration restrictions. They had no ID laws, no passports, no requirements to get in, etc. The first immigration restriction in the USA's history was in 1875 - Page Act of 1875 (Sect. 141, 18 Stat. 477, 1873-March 1875)
strengthen the ban against "coolie" laborers, by imposing a fine of up to $2,000 and maximum jail sentence of one year upon anyone who tried to bring a person from China, Japan, or any oriental country to the United States "without their free and voluntary consent, for the purpose of holding them to a term of service"
The Founders, some of which were xenophobes and vehement racists (like Franklin, who hated Germans and called them "swarthy skinned"), decided as a whole to allow free markets, and that meant labor markets too, like open border policy.
The idea you can't have borders or border security in a defensive sense, and simultaneously have open border immigration policy, is nonsense. The only way to have border security in the sense of immigrants IS open borders, because you actually check them as they come in for disease and criminal background checks (violent crime, not victimless crime). That means most immigrants will come through the medical and background check process....as it stands now, most jump the fence or sneak in, because the line is literally 131 years on average for legal green card entry for a 30 year old Mexican male with a high school diploma and a U.S. citizen sister already waiting in the USA (see the chart "How Long Must I Wait?" from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and Immigration Services). No one in their right mind will wait 131 years for legal entry. Thereby, you get all the illegal immigrants that are unchecked via medical and criminal background checks...instead of just a tiny percent of violent criminals who sneak in, and therefore would be easier to catch.
Immigration policy has nothing to do with the section of the Constitution you are claiming it does.
@Marcus Aurelius
I doubt anyone other than me gave a sh*t about your comment. But never fear, you can safely use the claim "I was only joking" as a free pass. Afterwards I promise not to tell anyone else how f*cking stupid your comment was and how quickly your c*nt hairs got all twisted up over me calling you out.
Good move for the military.
You are one of the blind ones.
l agree. Good move.
Why is this a good move?
Another PC feel good moment for Obama and the Liberals, when you join the Military by signing on the dotted line you know what is expected of you deal with it or don't join.
I support your opinion cgtrav :)
@cgtrav
NOT a good move for the military. The "gas mask" WILL NOT SEAL properly and protect you from NBC agents if you are wearing a beard or any head gear that will distort the fitting of the straps behind your head.
@medcorps
You are not on the green side are you?
Don't mean to bash a fellow service member.
Now having said this. If this goes thru It is not mine to disagree with I just have to, suck it up and drive on.
I do know that the rule will be to take off ones turbin and or shave ones beard if they need to wear a gass mask. I do support that. Having been in sticky and dangerous situations, I do understand and know the importance of needing to wear protective gear properly and completing the mission at hand without any limitations via what one is wearing. Yes, I'm not on the green side, but that doesn't matter.
@medcorps
This will become a problem when and if you go green, you will be faced with those that have facial hair and different head gear that could cause a problem.
Funny thing about the enemy, they don't announce that they are going to use NBC so that you or your battle buddy have time to remove said head gear or shave.
By the time someone yells GAS! GAS! GAS!, there is already someone fish flopping around.
Again not trying to be a pain, just know from experience this is not a good idea.
@viknat
Obama didn't have a f*cking thing to do with this change. This was being discussed when I was in back in 2003. Nor does Obama approve/disapprove or have any say in uniform changes. But don't let the facts stop this from being just another whine about Obama.
I'm not that ignorant. I know it will be an issue. It's also an issue on blue side when someone is aboard a ship and would need to put on fire fighter gear.
Hilarious picture. Where's Waldo? Prepare for upsurge in " friendly fire " casualties. "Geez Sarge, I thought he was one of dem terrorists." This stuff gets funnier by the day.
@medcorps
Good we both agree, that is all I ask.
1. You are not ignorant.
2. This COULD BE an issue.
3. Fire on board a ship TERRIFYING with or without any added problems.
"Fair winds and following seas"
This is old news. I served with a Sikh at Ft. Carson in 1970. He had long hair, beard, turban and sword. Really nice guy.
I apologize 101doc. I did not mean to come off as an ass.
Well, since Readiness is a requirement, I would hazard a guess that troops deployed in combat zones will be told to shave and swap that turban for a helmet.
Christina Thompson:
Obama is the Commander in Chief have you already forgotten. The Sikh who was complaining happened a month ago. The change is happening now. You're right, it is not a new subject. The Secretary of Defense is appointed by the President of the United States. You telling me Obama had no say in this matter?
sue, change the rules for people with special "needs", no need to enforce compliance, and know that people will follow orders in combat, or suddenly show an interest in someone else. Soldiers are supposed to look the same, uniformity. Its bad back at home base, but not deadly, no. In combat though, you need to know people are going to look out for each other and follow orders without question. Again, this wont kill anyone who sits at a desk in Missouri, but if they ever deploy the whiney babies who cant conform, there are going to be a lot more casualties than necessary.
@medcorps
First and foremost
NEVER apologize for fighting for what you believe in.
When all is said and done the important thing is can you look at yourself in the mirror and still stand by your convictions?
You didn't come off as being an ass.
Believe me I was a Sgt, I had to deal with quite a few asses in my time some had considerable rank, others none.
@101doc You're right. I was just trying to be respectful towards a fellow Corpsman :)
Yeah, because Obama and the Liberals are really big on displaying religious paraphernalia aren't they. Another typical example of right-wing projection. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean liberals and progressives do...dipstick!
Are Tinker-Bell chains allowed?
As a follower of Nudyism I will be naked as a jay bird.
I met a Lieutenant Colonel, helicopter pilot at Fort Eustis VA in 1990 who was Native American and did not have to cut his hair. He had a long ponytail that he kept under his soft cap. This is not new.
Cappy,
A lot of Native Americans of the Southwestern United States also use peyote, a hallucinogenic drug, in their religious rights. Do you suppose they might allow them to continue using it after joining the military because it's part of their religion? Something tells me the answer would be: NO!
Paul,
"As a follower of Nudyism I will be naked as a jay bird."
Are you going to have your insignia of rank tattooed on your arms or your balls? :)
CaraSurfs 1.68
Yeah, those dam Christians with their Crosses and crucifixes. You never know if you can trust them.
The Crosses and Crucifixes are not a blatant indicator, by size, to anyone, that this person is a Christian. These symbols are small. If seen in war, the soldier would have to have a body search for the Cross and or Crucifix to be noticed. Turban, unshaven face and Prayer Beads can be seen a mile away.
If it was a Crescent Moon with a Star as a symbol or even Prayer Beads, that would be more acceptable.
How about taking a page out of France's conduct book for schools, 'no religious display on your person'. Uniformity is more important, than each one trying to out do the other, in wearing Rituals in the Military.
The main Mission is being overlooked. Protection of the United States and it's territories. Not symbols that could endanger the Mission.
They are allowed to continue using it Mickey, they just have to be on leave.
Whoever wrote the instruction for the Navy inregards to smoking the Chanunpa (Peace Pipe) IS an UNEDUCATED dumbass!!!
Traditionally what was first smoked in the Peace Pipe was Chanchasha which is red willow bark. It IS NOT a hallucenigon. The only reason why it is considered sacred is because it is red and it can be smoked in the Chanunpa. Then tobacco came in and started being used and then used more because it was more readily available and could be smoked in the Chanunpa. Smoking the Chanunpa IS NOT about getting high and IS NOT used to get high at all!!! The peyote ceremony IS a completely different ceremony all on it's own and NOT all tribes use it. Also people think that Pow wows are religious ceremonies and that IS NOT true at all!!! Native American ceremonies DO NOT get filmed or have pictures taken of them!!! That goes for Inipi Wakan (Sweat Lodge), too. All of those ones on Youtube are complete bull crap and garbage!!! Those people clearly never trained with anyone on how to properly run one and never received what I'll say is, license, from a Medicine Man or Woman to be able to do so.
All of the information I'm sharing here is stuff I've learned from and witnessed and participated in while I was sationed in Nebraska and met several local Natives as well as Chief Titus Eagle Feather from South Dakota.
Unit cohesiveness is one of the things that is the backbone of the military. Every member of a unit is there for one purpose and it's why they call it a military UNIFORM. Please tell me this is a April Fools day prank. The sound you here is GEN Patton turning over in his grave and the soldier he slapped in Sicily cheering.
Don't think current administration would even let a Patton stay in the military anymore.
You are probably right because the current admin don't go into wars anymore to win now do they. RON
paul,
"Every member of a unit is there for one purpose and it's why they call it a military UNIFORM."
Yes. It looks like the military uniform is in danger of becoming no longer uniform. Next thing you know they'll be allowing nose rings and other body piercing devices. Maybe even T-shirts with political slogans on them. The dangers of too much diversity.
Zumwalt raised a fuss when he allowed facial hair and civilian clothes (for liberty) aboard ships. The USN survived it. Military uniforms have always been in a state of flux. That way, each change of upper-level command results in a new stamp of identity.
My grandfather served and lost his sight in WWII. My Father in Law was career air force. My husband is a disabled vet. The one thing they all agreed on was that when you are in a unit - especially in combat situations, you form a bond as brothers and differences in race, religion and politics take a back seat. The people currently serving in our military know they have people in their unit that have differing beliefs already. Allowing a person to have a beard or turban, especially in non-combat situations, is not going to make their peers suddenly come to this conclusion.
If wearing a turban or prayer beads breaks the "backbone" of the military, then I have to say that our military is in a shabby state. This is not an extreme reform and its being instituted cautiously.
I'm sure we'll pull through this. SOMEHOW.
SF accountant,
"I'm sure we'll pull through this. SOMEHOW."
Yes, that's true. Many changes in the military have occurred in the past, and it has survived. They did away with racially segregated military units, started allowing more women to serve, and, most recently, did away with the prohibition on gays serving. The uniforms have also changed tremendously over time. Major reorganizations in structure have also taken place. The Air Force I served in is no longer the Air Force of today. It has been pretty much completely reorganized since I retired.
I spent 4 years in the Navy under Adm. Zumwalt and most of the time I and many of my shipmates had beards. They were regulated to where they had to be kept trimmed and neat. I also wore a St. Christopher's medal while others wore religious medallions of different faiths. We accomplished every mission we were assigned and had no negative impact on the performance of the ship.
Unit cohesion. I believe most military members get along with all sort of races, religions, genders, sexual preference. They are more subjected to it. It is the civilians who lack "cohesion" and they are the ones who try to speak for the military. Camaraderie is one thing the military has a lot of. Something that is different than the civilian sector. So this change really affects no one in the military, except the individual.
miner 86,
"I spent 4 years in the Navy under Adm. Zumwalt..."
Ah, yes! Good old, old Adm. Zumwalt. They called him the Father of the Nuclear Navy, but I think he was really the Father of the Navy period. How long was he in the Navy? 69 years or something like that, I think.
miner 86,
Pardon my error. I was thinking of Adm. Rickover, the Father of the Nuclear Navy. I got my wires crossed between him and Zumwalt.
A ridiculous idea. You are not in the service to pay homage to any religion, but to your country. Leave your religious trinkets at the door.
I agree Rick. I feel the military should all be clean cut while in a uniform as they have been in the past years. This is just the government pushing for Muslim.
The pentagon is fuc-ing it up again. Come on folks, beards and turbines?
Face it - there are folks that shouldn't join the military.
Especially those who wear "turbines".
Pesimist,
"Come on folks, beards and turbines?"
Beards in the Navy maybe. The Navy has allowed beards in the past. They're fickle about that. Now they allow beards; now they don't. But turbans, never.
In order to wear a beard, they have to have a "no shave" chit and it has to be approved by a doctor or an IDC for medical reasons like pseudofeliculitis. The beard also needs to be trimmed down to no more than a quarter of an inch.
In the ten years I was in the US Army we went through three uniform changes. That's all this is. Also, religion is a part of life for most in the Armed Services. Personally I do not really care if they wear a turban, a yarmulke, or a dead squirrel on their head. As long as it doesn't interfere with their ability to do their job. Which leads me my last point. The US Military is very aware that the morale of the troops is paramount. Which I believe is the main reason for the US Military doing this. Morale is probably the most important aspect of a well disciplined fighting force. I really do not expect some of you to understand this, it's just my thoughts and observations on the matter.
Amen PaladinofMo!!! :D Well said!!! :D People not in the military, which it seems like there are a lot of non-military members on here commenting, don't realize how much religion does help out religious service members that are in the military. Like they say now a days, there is no atheist in a fox hole!!! :)
medcorps,
"In order to wear a beard..."
Yes, that is the current Navy regulation on beards, but historically the regulations on beards have changed from time to time. You can check it out at this link:
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/uniform_personal.htm
Yes I'm aware of that. I was simply stating what the rule now is for the Navy since I should definitely know this given that I'm a Corpsman.
I agree that the turban and beards are going a bit to far, but to a person of religion having a religious " trinket" worn under their uniform may very well give him/ her the comfort of feeling as though their god(s) are with them. When said soldier feels as though their god(s) are with them, one would think they would be more at ease with what is happening. People may think that religion is a crutch, and they may be right, but some people need that.
medcorps,
"I should definitely know this given that I'm a Corpsman."
I figured as much based on your screen name, "medcorps". I almost joined the Navy myself back in 1972. I actually visited the Navy recruiter first. I was in college at the time, but was thinking about quitting. So I went to see the Navy recruiter, and he convinced me to stay in college and finish my degree. So I did. But when I went back after graduation from college, the Air Force recruiter grabbed me first. So I ended up spending the next 20 years in the Air Force. How's the weather in the Navy these days? :)
Pandering to this nonsense is a huge mistake; the uniformed services need maintain uniform appearance standards.
My dad and sister were Air force. I was scrambling for a screen name and ended up with medcorps. Then I remembered that the Medcial corps in the Navy is for Doctors of various types :) Oh well :)
As far as the weather in the Navy goes and uniform changes, they are looking into making females have the same uniform when it comes to dress uniforms, as males. They're changing the uniforms every other year it seems. When it comes to kicking people out, I think they should start with people who are out of physical standards and or have had DUIs.
It's cold where I'm at and was told to go home early because of snow yesterday.
Other than that, it's alright :) We're just undermanned where I'm at.
Thank you for your service and I did not mean to sound like an ass earlier :)
medcorps,
"They're change the uniforms every other year it seems."
I know what you mean. We had some big changes in the Air Force uniforms in 1992 just before I retired. The Air Force Chief of Staff at the time apparently didn't like the way the uniforms looked and decided to become a fashion designer. They even changed the rank insignia of the top enlisted ranks, though the officer insignia remained unchanged. I'm sorry to hear it's cold where you are stationed. Where is that? The Great Lakes? Virginia? New York? You didn't sound like an ass earlier. You just sounded a bit miffed. Thank you for your ongoing service, too!
medcorps,
"there are no atheists in foxholes" may sound cute but it is, has been, and always will be a false statement. My father and uncles served in WWII and, although they all believed in God, they all stated time and time again that they knew atheists who served with them. My father, who was an infantryman in Europe said that he knew several and that when two of them were seriously injured that they never swerved from their atheist beliefs. He knew they were atheists because they figured out that he was an educated man who loved and respected the US Constitution and would not hold it against them. He also said that they always found a way to be absent during any prayers or religious services.
I also know many other servicemembers who have served since then who have said that they knew of atheist soldiers, sailors and marines, who, even when dying never gave up turned their backs on their atheist views.
The idea that when faced with death that an true and educated atheist will suddenly seek out a deity is a lie.
As for this new policy, many militaries make allowances for these types of tings and it does NOT adversely effect uniformity or cohesion. The idea that some posters here have that it is PC garbage is foolish. It is showing that the Pentagon is not stuck in the 18th century in its views.
I spent 2 tours of SE Asia during Viet Nam and took took my religious trinket with as did a lot of others who served there.
medcorps it is sad that so many do not know the whole quote and only the part supporting their religious views: there is no atheist in a fox hole!!!.
The whole quote is: There are no atheist in fox holes is not an indictment against atheism but against fox holes.
As for the turbans and beards I do not think that that is a good idea. Religion is something that many people have but is not talked about a lot in the military. The other is the fact that the rules will change when they deploy and I do not want them to have a fit when they are told to shave it off or get a haircut. The sad thing is they may use this as an excuse for not deploying.
@Mickey I'm currently in PA working at a Reserve center. I don't like it, but it's what I had to choose from. my plan after I leave here is go to aviation medical technician school and then go to a squadron to get mt AW device :)
medcorps,
Ah, yes! PA is my home state. I was born and raised in Wilkes-Barre so I know how cold it can get there in the winter. I remember trudging through the snow every morning going to and from school with my fingers freezing solid. Bundle up and keep warm, and good luck with your career if you plan on making the Navy your career.
Hey Medcorps:
When you wore that crucifix openly in uniform while deployed in the Middle East what happened? HAhahahahahahahahaha
Turbines are one thing, as long as the blades are short enough not to whack someone else in the head when the wearer stands too close, but I draw the line at those dam' Pastafarians and their dreadnoodles. I don't even think it's sanitary to wear clumps of uncombed pasta on your head. That can't possibly smell nice.
@Mickey Yep! :) I plan on making the military my career! :) I love it! :) Thank You! :) Good luck to you too in your life and what you choose to do with it! :)
not a good move.
I disagree. Its a common-sense policy for the military of a multi-cultural nation.
If the Pentagon banned all religious items then that would include Christian items too. What would your vine comments be for the headline "Pentagon bans crucifix"? Be honest.
Unit commanders have the final say, especially in a combat situation. Is there really a scandal here?
YGTBSM
Total B.S.
What the heck is going on in our government?
They have elected the leftist liberals and they have gained control and have placed their cohorts in high places. The people are blinded by the fact that the leftist liberals are not looking out for the masses, their goal is to subjugate everyone into their slaves. In reality there is no democrat or republican, there is only the rich and powerful and believe me they stick together. The only difference is that the democrats want to make you into their slaves to fast and the republicans want to do it gradually.
This has nothing to do with politics. Trust me if the Joint Chiefs and the Secretaries did not want this, it wouldn't have happened. It comes down to one thing, the morale of the troops.
I do have a question for all of you. Does this effect you or your life in any way shape or form? Just because some Sergeant wants to wear a turban? So what? Be grateful these men and women volunteered to serve this country. I bet more than a few of you on this board are too chicken @!$%# to even attempt to join the military.
Well said again PaladinofMo!!! :D I've been in the Navy for over 7 1/2 years now. Some people on here don't even seem to realize that there is a difference between a Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Airmen, and someone in the Coast Guard.
People who are not in the military need to stay out of this issue.
I did not swear the oath of service, but I spent my entire childhood as a military dependent... I agree that some of the people commenting here have no clue as to what the culture is like in the military and the FACT that there have been many, many changes in the uniform over time. In fact, our service members are pretty happy that the uniform has changed over time. They certainly would not want to fight in the same type of uniform that existed even 100 years ago, not to mention the uniforms that existed back when uniforms were enacted.
I can't wait until I get a fire proof uniform. My NWUs would melt in a fire. I don't forsee myself being in a possion where I might need to fight a fire, though. I know not all branches want to wear the same one. they give a service member a sense of identity. I sure as hell would not want to wear what was worn a hundred years ago.
@medcorps
My son HATES the NWUs he says they look stupid. (he too is a corpsman). If you go on board a ship absolutely do get cross trained in everything you can, makes it easier to get the stations you want, and more points for promotion, more chances for something to be useful when you ETS. NEVER NEVER limit yourself to just one MOS.
Try to stay out of the subs (sorry submariners) if you are over 5 foot tall you will not be happy. :-)
Uniforms aren't cheap either. In the Army we had Army combat uniforms, class "A" and class "B" uniforms, service uniforms and dress uniforms. Damn that got expensive. The cleaning bill could be hundred dollars or more. Not to mention if you had to replace any insignia or patches on your uniform. Hell I had to buy brand new uniforms when I became an NCO. I went through four sets of ACUs when I was in Afghanistan. Anyway that is beside the point. This new policy change I believe will help the troops.
Gee medcorps, for someone that doesn't forsee himself being in a position of having to fight a fire, you sure claim to have a lot of knowledge about the Navy. Your statement tells me you've never served on a ship or you could forsee being in the position to have to fight a fire. When the NBC alarm goes off you don't have time to shave before putting on your gas mask. The crew is too busy trying to set dog zebra to wait for someone that needs to shave in order to get a good seal on their gas mask. There is nothing wrong with wearing a religious symbol under the uniform. However, there is a reason it is called uniform. I suggest you get some time at sea before claiming to be an expert on the military and especially the Navy.
I love cammies because they are easy to take care of and are comfortable :) I'm glad I don't have to wear the NSUs that I was issued in boot camp anymore. The whites were a pain to take care of.
I remeber when they came out with the new NWUs and the new NSUs. They gave us some of the money to pay for everything. The gortex parka all together cost just a little under $300. I was not allowed to buy the uniforms or wear them until 2 1/2 years after they gave us the money. I was an E-2 to E-3 during that time and they actually expected me to hang on to all of that money for that long. I was in Maine at NAS Brunswick at the time. We were one of the last people to be able to wear the new uniforms.
I will avoid being on a sub at all cost provided I don't have to get out of the military to do so!!! Just like for pilots, they should have hight restrictions on subs!!!
I have not had the oportunity to be on a ship yet. Oh well.
My knowledge of the Navy is something all Sailors ARE expected to know including the general orders to the Sentry.
The MCPON even came out saying that all Sailors are expected to know the Sailors Creed, but obviously not all Sailors have it memorized.
@!$%# happens, I may need to fight a fire where I work now. It'll make things exciting around here :)
@Paladino
Being a former NCO I know how you feel, at least they didn't require us to buy the Dress Blues. Now those were out of this world expensive!
For those that don't know it YES THE ARMY HAS DRESS BLUES, for those super special outings.
Which I skipped at any and all cost to keep from coughing up that much money.
@medcorps
you don't have to get out if they decide you should go sub duty.
You sound like you are SERIOUSLY CLOSTROPHOBIC, that is all they need to hear.
Guy that don't like tight spaces, in tight spaces not good, will not effect your service, not (for now) a dischargeable offence.
Yep :) I'm claustrophobic when it comes to tight spaces like that and having to be underwater for prolonged periods of time like that. I've met some submariners and they were all what one would call, wierd or interesting to put it nicely with no disrespect meant :) They were funny though! :)
The most likely place where I work where a fire will break out is in the galley which is across the hall from my office. I'm glad there is not a gas stove in there because some people around here are careless when it comes to using the stove. At least I'll be able to bust out a window if need be :) The EKG machine might as well be put to good use seems how we don't use it here that much! :) I need my centerfuje to be in perfect working order to spin down the blood! :) The equipment is replaceable and can afford to be thrown through a window! :)
@med
Be careful what you say!
If you are using the station internet they Navy can look at what you post.
You should probably hope some nimrod doesn't start a fire, if they look at your postings they will go HMMMMM , he mentioned fire in the galley and now poof.
God forbid some roid rage peon comes in and throws your EKG out the window, because it beeped at him.
Could be problematic for you.
Think man! Think!
I do think before posting :) I'm not worried :) I'm not and won't make any terroristic threats :)
Such B.S.
Yeah just like your post. Got any other deep thoughts on the matter? Any personal experiences that justify your thought provoking statement?
Yes, you very full of BS.
This is about the DUMBEST, GUTLESS thing I have EVER heard. Our military fought wars together, men and women of different religions, but they were together as ONE unit for ONE cause. This is a DISGRACE to all those who have given their lives for their branches of service and pure, unadulterated bull@!$%#. The Pentagon is now infested by the same ilk of congressional moronic idiots. Time to lock, load and by all means if needed, get the passports ready!!
Ron, if you really believe that you need to read a little more history. There was plenty of dissent in every war.
If you don't like you're free to move to another country. The military fights to protect a person's constitutionally protected right to Freedom of Religion...whatever that religion might be. Morale is as important a part of military service as cohesiveness and training. If these service members want to express their faith and it has no effect on their ability to perform their duties as servicemen or women then by all means let them. My sons are both Marines and my son in law is a sailor and they are all atheists but out of deference to me they carry a rosary when in service.
Remember....There are NO atheists in foxholes in combat.
You said it so well linda92595!!! :D
Amen sam-790083!!! :D
Oh no! Not the disgrace!
Really ron? THIS ranks among the most "gutless" things you've ever heard?
Drama queen.
sam-790083 & medcorp.
As I pointed out before the idea that there are no atheists in foxholes is a flat out lie. Only a complete fool believes such garbage.
*ahem*
Beards used to be standard issue. Go look at pictures of Civil War soldiers.
And by the way, didnt members of the military swear to uphold.... what was that thing? Confabulation, consarnation, constellation, constipation..... oh yeah, "Constitution".
You know, the one with all that pesky nonsense about free speech blah blah freedom of religion blah blah before it gets to that all-important Second Amendment.
Unbelievable! I consider myself a liberal, "bleeding heart", but even I'm against this nonsense. THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD BE WORN IN THE MILITARY IS THE UNIFORM THAT YOURE ISSUED!!! If you want to make a stand for your religion then don't enlist as the three major religions command that 'thou shalt not kill'.
Actually, the original translation is "thou shall not murder".
Ha. Pick a translation.
The original Hebrew says Thou Shalll Not Murder". THAT is the ONLY valid translation since it is the original.
Will probably mistake a cohort for the enemy based on how they look and have to say 'oops' after the smoke clears.
Cohort - A roman army unit of fighting men who all wore a uniform.
I am a Sikh, and I have to agree that this move is foolish. Serving in the military is an honor and privilege; the oath is to protect a secular Constitution and its people, and to kill and die in the process if need be. Leave religion behind; service in a nation's armed forces is the highest honor; and each nation recognizes its precious patriots and those who sacrificed everything for their fellow citizens. At the outset, the minor sacrifice of leaving religious symbols behind should be readily made, and expected of each soldier. In the U.S. army, there should be just these symbols; that of the Constitution, the flag, and the people. Faith to a higher deity is fine, just keep it private and take up the turban, yarmulke, beads, and other symbols when you come back home honorably. If this concept is alien, one should simply not serve in the military. Just my two cents, and I have never served in any military, but truly respect those who have, regardless of their internal faith.
@mad2008
Well posted. Thank you
I have worked with 2 Sikh's, one is the beard and turbin, 5ks, etc. The other..short hair, clean shaven. So they can choose to shave or not. If you want more real background on this 'peaceful' religion, google 'Operation Blue Star', it was her 2 Sikh bodyguards who killed the Indian PrimeMinister afterwards, so much for personal vowes of protection.
MrMAD2008. I do not believe you are sikh. Maybe a Sikh by family but probably not a strict follower. I object to your view which does not represent all of the Sikhs. To be a full Sikh- you have to grow your hair. Even the british would not take a soldier if they cut their hair. They believed a true Sikh was a force to be recokoned with. They did not want imposters !
This is absolutely absurd. I came into the military and spent 22 years hearing "There is no "I" in TEAM!". Then POTUS Clinton started "Don't ask, Don't tell". Next GEN Shinseki got the warm fuzzy with "An Army of One" and let everyone keep their individuality while wearing a beret. And now we have trinkets, tatoos, and covers (hats) that are supposed to allow the fighting men and women to hold on to every aspect of whatever religion they chose without conforming to a military way of life. So what's next? I'm a Hasidic Jew so I get to grow my hair and a long Duck Dynasty beard while wearing a great big fur Shtreimel in formation? Or, I'm a Rastafarian so I can wear dreadlocks and smoke weed? These are extremes, I know, but a soldier 30 years ago would have said pierced ears, berets, neck tatoos, and openly gay soldiers was an extreme we would never go to.
@Tired
100% agree
I ETS'd 15 years ago , I still say earrings on a male NOT( I am female and I didn't wear earrings while in uniform, not even for class A inspections.)
Berets.. you didn't earn it take it off!!!
Neck Tattoos... if it is showing above the collar line COVER IT, I DON'T NEED OR WANT TO SEE IT!
Our rule was you can wear religious medallions however THEY CAN NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE UNIFORM.
NOTHING is more important than that uniform, when you are in uniform you represent the United States and your branch. People don't see Sgt Smith... they see U.S. Army, Navy, Marines ,Air Force
I still can not seem to break the habit of asking someone that is wearing a Screaming Eagle patch.. did you earn that or buy it! My husband has kittens every time I corner someone about it, he thinks I am being overly protective about an "item" as he calls it. I explain over and over IF YOU DON'T EARN IT YOU DON'T DESERVE IT.
Air Assault
Well said. Thanks for your service. My cousin was 101st in VN.
101doc- I do the same thing sometimes. When I see some one out on the street wearing a field jacket or ACU top with a unit insignia on it I ask them what unit that is where they earned it. I know its kinda nosy but I can't help myself. I spent ten years in the Army as a combat engineer. Even served a little time with the 101st Airborne.
As far as this new policy change, I saw it coming. The last part of my Army career I was an instructor for the 12-b 12-c demolition course at Fort Leonard Wood. I saw how the new recruits were so diverse and very individualistic. This was in 2005. So I saw how at least the Army would probably have to address this issue. Whether or not we think its right doesn't matter. I am no longer in the service so it doesn't effect me personally.
@J in TX
No thanks necessary in serving, it was my pleasure, most of the time :-), sometimes I would walk off saying "I like it I love if I want some more of it."
Tell your cousin good job.
I was 101st at Ft. Campbell KY.
@paladino
I love asking those that wear the Screaming Eagle... what is the sling load count for a 996? (simple question for 101st since we sling load everything!)
if they give me a stupid look I know they didn't earn that patch.. which just chaps my cheeks!
You are correct if /when this goes thru it will not effect me as I ETS'd as well, I just have to suck it up and drive on.
Yes, because we need 'religious fanatacism' in our military. Nobody fights better than a crazy person who believes a higher power endorses what he does and will bring down the power of said entity when asked for it.
What is with you people? Although I detest organized religion, a lot of our service men and women are religious. Some even want to express that religious belief. I say let them. They are serving our country. Maybe I am a little more sympathetic because I did my time and I know what it is like having the proverbial @!$%# hit the fan and you are praying to God that your ass isn't next. It is a form of psychological comfort. So if you aren't currently in the Armed Services then it does not effect you in any way.
Shave all of their heads and deport those that dont. Sick of these forgein bastards. Served many years in the Military and this is nothing but BS. They need to conform to our way of life not theirs. This administration is out of control. This is what you get when you have a communist raised Muslim in the big house.
"They" ?
"forgein bastards" ?
Who exactly are you talking about? Members of the same military you claim to have served?
If you want respect for your "service" then start by giving it. You're taking a dump on your fellow veterans. You should be ashamed.
@CWO
Does CWO stand for Chief Warrant Officer?
if so
"sir/ma'am your conduct is unbecoming an officer in accordance with article 133 of the UCMJ"
It seems odd to me that anyone of any faith feels the need to advertise by wearing a form of a banner. It's like wearing a chip on your shoulder.
That this is even being considered is unbelievable. The military wears clothes, it is called a uniform. Uniform means uniform (Identical- alike) it does not mean somewhat identical or almost identical. It is difficult to maintain both discipline and esprit-de-corp. Part of the unity in the military is the idea that we are all in this together and we all dress alike. It may seem like a small thing to a civilian who has never served but to anyone who has served they understand the importance of looking alike.
I have been proud to be an American for all of my life but like the lst Lady I am having my doubts.
There are planes and ships leaving America every day.
Get on one.
Exactly how do they intend to promote unit cohesion when they're allowing everyone to do their own thing? I served 21 years and like Tired stated in #13, you never would have heard of someone being allowed to change out portions of their uniform or grooming standards to suit personal beliefs. You're there to serve, not be mollycoddled and spoonfed. Guess we'll have to change from "The Uniformed Services" to the "Various People Kinda Working Together to Protect Whatever They Believe In Services".
Good one, P M. It's the "kinda working together" that is the key, here. Uniform means UNIFORM. I served six years (Ooh-rah!), and conformance was part of the learning to be a UNIT. Why do you think military personnel are trained to march together? All part of the same concept. While it looks okay (some turbans worn with uniforms are really nice looking) it does make the individual stand out, which absolutely ruins cohesiveness. Doesn't matter what the "rule" being made is - if one person can do it, everybody gets to do it, or "there goes the team!"
I am so glad I separated from the military when my contract was finished....I urge others to do the same
this makes me kind of want to throw up...
The hard left turn seems to have us headed for the ditch.
Yes, the right wing nutjobs ARE out to destroy the country. Look at Christie and the former gov of VA!
Sometimes WTF just doesn't quite cover it.
So, should they ban people from wearing a Cross? Why not? It fits what is discussed in this order!
In Pakistan? Sure. Not here.
Why should they wear ANY religious symbol? Keep it to yourself. You're in the military to serve your COUNTRY, not your god.
OMG! Do we have any Commanders / Leaders in Washington DC with half a brain? I believe in personal freedoms for all and what you praise or display on your own time is your business. However, when you slip-on the uniform of a United States Soldier and step into formation, I want every swinging unit to look and appear the same. Its discipline and attention to detail, special requests or treatment for a few only breaks down unit moral, discipline and cohesion. The military never really was a democracy and there are several great people that will be face down in their grave, as they rollover.
One more thing for the poor leadership that choose to change the dress code. Get a set of nuts and start commanding your soldiers as one unit, one army there are no individuals in the military!
You know,years ago troops were allowed religious beards,turbans etc.Then some Generals decided it wasn't a good idea to have troops looking different so those were banned.Makes you wonder why they even bothered???
Yet another inroad for islam. Guess who suggested it? OBOYAMA
American Military should look like AMERICAN! Not some stinkin infiltrators. Protest vehemently, and kick them all out. And no, YOU are not an American if you don't adhere to our way. {kinda like your attitude in your country} No immigrant is ever going to be an American as long as we still have jerk offs that want to appease the demands of foreigners. Like mexicans want to end immigration laws to suit themselves. Who the hell are YOU to tell us what and how to do things.
What is "look american" to you? An old, white, uneducated, "play Christian" twit?
Seems you like to pee on the US Constitution in your spare time....
Herron
Have you ever served your country?
lev. SO WHAT do you define as "look american"????
Unedcucated white trash that will only make it out of the trailer park if they enlist?
Herron
You enjoy putting words in peoples mouths don't you? Maybe if you weren't so busy doing that you might learn something. I asked if you had served (pretty sure I know the answer to that) because if you had you would know that the military is NOT about individualism, its all about uniformity. Something that a civilian would take for granted could in fact jeopardize ones safety in the military.
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What is "look American" to you? An old, white, uneducated, "play Christian" twit?
Uneducated white trash that will only make it out of the trailer park if they enlist?
Those are YOUR words, not mine, not anyone else's......YOURS.
Is this what YOU think "look American" means?
Smaug52x is a walleyed, drooling racist idiot. I'd also lay a bet he never served (since levi forgot to ask him).
America is a multi-racial multi-cultural nation of immigrants. "Looking American" is looking like who you are.
If you volunteer to serve then you wear the uniform proudly, but you are still who you are. I think its an important reminder to our military to keep in mind that the nation they are defending is composed of lots of different races and creeds (yes, even muslim !).