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Behind Enemy the Lines


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#1 Rabbit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:01 PM

The Office of Strategic Services (OSS)

The first OSS Operational Group (OG) unit dedicated to missions behind the lines in Italy was ready in the Spring of 1943. However, the OSS OGs played only a marginal role in the landings at Sicily and Salerno. They demonstrated their value for the first time during the landing at Anzio in January 1944 when they provided intelligence to the Allied Command about the German counterattack which gave the Allies time to organize and to resist on the beach-head.
OSS support activities in Italy at that time proved important because until June 1944 the Italian front was the only one where OSS agents could actually operate behind the enemy lines.

One of the OSS’ most important tasks was to cut vital German supply lines that reinforced the Gustav and later the Gothic Line. Because the railway that constituted the main German supply line was riddled with tunnels that ran through the mountainous coast between Genova and Livorno, Army Air Force bombings were not an effective way to disrupt the lines. Therefore, one of the OSS missions was to blow a tunnel, 15 miles northwest of La Spezia harbor, effectively cutting the important railway line which ran from north to south along the western shore. This was the objective of the ill-fated “Ginny Mission.”

The "Ginny Mission” was one of the first to use an entire OG unit of 15 agents. After an initial aborted attempt, a second unit left Bastia (Corsica) on March 22 and landed with rubber boats. Shortly after landing, all members of the unit were captured by an enemy patrol. Although they were all properly dressed in US Army uniform and should have been considered and treated as prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention, the entire unit was secretly executed by the Nazis a few days following their capture.

Wehrmacht General Dostler, in charge of the Italian Territory and who ordered the execution of the 15 agents, was later tried in Rome as a “war criminal” after Germany’s surrender and sentenced to death in December of 1945. His case created the legal precedent for the Nuremberg trials.

In 1944, the OSS started supporting the Resistance with money, arms, and other materials via air drops in the center and northern parts of Italy. The OSS also sent agents to participate in special missions with the partisans and 4,280 Allied air operations were carried out behind the lines during the course of the war.

As the military operations on the Gustav Line stayed blocked for several months, the OSS activity in collaboration with the Resistance became crucial. The OSS collected and transmitted information and carried out sabotage operations. As a consequence, the difference between the activities of the two most important groups (the SI/Italy, responsible for general intelligence and the OSS/5th Army Detachment, responsible for tactical support) became blurred, as both carried out long and short range missions all over the German-occupied territory. In the Summer of 1944, following the successful battle of Cassino, the Italian campaign slowed and became secondary to the invasion of France. The Allied forces in Italy were reorganized and diminished, keeping the Italian Front open and allowing German divisions to remain in place rather than being deployed to defend other northern European fronts. This strategy intensified the OSS and partisan military operations behind the lines and the role of the United States in Italy became
The OSS continued to support the Resistance with air drops through the Winter of 1944. In November 1944, British Marshall Alexander, the head of the Allied Army in Italy, asked the partisans to stop their operations during the cold season. The air missions slowed down but never stopped, thus allowing many partisan brigades to resist on the mountains during that hard winter.

The OSS drops and the OG missions behind the lines increased definitively beginning with January 1945, when American General Clark took over the command in Italy. Their main task was to destroy bridges and the major routes in the North in order to prevent the German retreat, in preparation of the final Allied attack against the Gothic Line and the general partisan insurrection of April 1945.

On the night of 22 March 1944, two officers and
thirteen American soldiers,of Italian descent,of the 2677th
Special Reconnaissance Battalion of the Armed
Forces of the United States of America travelled
by MTB from Bastia, Corsica to the stretch of
coastline located between Bonassola and
Framura, about 35 miles North-West of La
Spezia. The mission was to blow up a nearby
railway tunnel(see yellow arrow). At that time the Genova to La
Spezia railway line was being used to re-supply
German troops fighting at Monte Cassino and
Anzio, some 250 miles away. Throughout the
operation all troops were in uniform and not
wearing civilian clothes.

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#2 Rabbit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:11 PM

Unfortunately, the Germans had realised the
vulnerability of the railway tunnel entrances and had set up stout well-manned defences with no obvious weak points.


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#3 Rabbit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:15 PM

The American soldiers attempted to evade
capture but were eventually apprehended on the morning of 24 March 1944 by a
mixed formation comprising soldiers of the fascist Socialist Republic of Italy and
German troops. All 15 soldiers were taken to nearby La Spezia, where the German
135th Fortress Brigade had its headquarters, and were interrogated by two officers
from German naval intelligence.
This is the place where all the americans were captured,in 1944 it was a barn,now it is a private country house.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98752&stc;=1&d;=1359648848

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98753&stc;=1&d;=1359648889

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#4 Rabbit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:30 PM

On 24 March the 135th Fortress Brigade reported the capture to the 75th German Army
Corps. On the morning of March 25 the Brigade received a telegram signed by
General Dostler (head of the 75th German Army Corps) which demanded that the
prisoners be shot immediately. The officers who had interrogated the prisoners and
the 135th Fortress Brigade Commander,

Colonel Almers, requested a stay of execution,
but on the afternoon of 25 March the HQ of
the 75th Corps ordered the prisoners to be shot
before 7am the following morning.
During the night of Saturday 25 March 1944
officers of the 135th Fortress Brigade and the
German Navy twice tried to have the order to
execute the men rescinded but were
unsuccessful. Hence the soldiers (who had
been taken from La Spezia to the remote cliff
top location of Punta Bianca near Bocca di
Magra) were shot at dawn on the morning of
26 March 1944. None had been tried by a
court. The order to shoot them contravened
international conventions and was the sole
responsibility of General Anton Dostler commander of the 75th German Army Corps. Dostler’s subordinate, Alexander Prince
of Dohna-Schlobitten, who refused to sign the execution order, was dismissed from
the Wehrmacht for insubordination and political unreliability. (Alexander was a
German aristocrat who died on 24 January 1997 at the age of 97)

Punta Bianca battery

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98754&stc;=1&d;=1359649375


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The guns of Punta Bianca-"De Lutti Battery" could fire heavy shells 15 miles. As the Allies fought up the coast, they came under fire from these giant guns, and from enemy counterattacks, and the advance bogged down at the fortified Gothic Line at Cinquale in February, 1945. After valiant attempts to move forward, the advance was called off after 1100 casualties. In early April 1945, the advance was renewed. Troops advanced through the foothills and engaged the Germans with heavy losses. Tanks and fighter aircraft attacked the guns on the peninsula with more than 11,000 shells. The fighting lasted two weeks until the guns were silenced on April 18. Finally, the Germans retreated as the outcome here and elsewhere in Italy became clear. La Spezia was liberated on April 24, 1945.
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#5 Rabbit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:47 PM

inside the battery


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98768&stc;=1&d;=1359650460


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#6 Rabbit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:05 PM

General Dostler was brought to trial before an American Military Commission at the
Palace of Justice in Rome on 8 October 1945, and proceedings concluded on 12
October. His defence was that he had simply obeyed Hitler’s orders, issued 18
October 1942, to shoot all commandos caught without first bringing them to trial. He
said that if he had behaved differently he
would have risked being brought before a
German court martial.
Anton Dostler was convicted of war crimes and
was shot at Aversa (located 15km North of
Naples) at 8am on 1 December 1945. He is
buried in the Pomezia war cemetery, Italy.
Colonel Almers (commander of the 135th
Fortress Brigade) who was apprehended by the
Allies at the end of the war, escaped captivity
and was never recaptured.

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#7 Rabbit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:08 PM

Trial and Execution of General Anton Dostler


Execution of German General Anton Dostler - Video Dailymotion

(General Anton Dostler lies buried in the German War Cemetery at Pomezia some miles south of Rome)

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98785&stc;=1&d;=1359652087

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#8 Rabbit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:13 PM

To commemorate the 60th anniversary
of the mission, the American OSS
Society and the Comune of Ameglia
placed a commemorative plaque at
Punta Bianca and erected a formal
monument at Bocca di Magra.
The mission represented a tragic waste
of heroic and talented military
personnel who must have known from
the start that their chances of success
and survival were perilously slim.

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#9 Rabbit

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:22 PM

Lieutenant VINCENT J. RUSSO Gravesite Florence American Cemetery Italy
Lieutenant PAUL J. TRAFICANTE " " Calvary Cemetery,Woodside,Queens County,New York
Seargent LIVIO VIECELI Florence American Cemetery Italy
Seargent DOMINICK C. MAURO " " " " " " " " "
Seargent ALFRED L. DE FLUMERI " " " "
Soldier SALVATORE DISCLAFANI " "
. . SANTORO CALCARA " "
. . JOSEPH M. FARRELL "" "" "" ""
. . JOHN S. LEONE " "
. . JOSEPH A. LIBARDI " "
. . JOSEPH NOIA Calvary Cemetery,Woodside,Queens County,New York
. . THOMAS N. SAVINO Long Island National Cemetery,Farmingdale,New York
. . ANGELO SIRICO Florence American Cemetery Italy
. . ROSARIO F. SQUATRITO " " " "
. . LIBERTY G. TREMONTE " " " " "

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ROSARIO F. SQUATRITO

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98791&stc;=1&d;=1359652663


OSS-Veteran

Italian Americans in the OSS


this sad story is not over yet.......more to come.

Thanks for watching

Max

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#10 canuck

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:49 AM

Phenomenal thread. Thanks for this Rabbit.
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“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
 Benjamin Franklin

#11 Varasc

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:44 AM

An incredible topic, a superb explanation, Rabbit. Excellent.
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Marco

Una salus victis, nullam sperare salutem

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#12 Rabbit

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:51 PM

Thanks for your kind replies guys.

The allies were informed about the execution of 15 soldiers of the mission Ginny the same day, 26 March 1944.
Italian partisans informed the Allies a few hours after the execution, a partisan radio operator also informed allies where the bodies of the unfortunate mission components had been buried.
There was also a plan to free the soldiers of the mission Ginny,but unfortunately they were killed before this plan was in operation.

All the informations about the soldiers of the Ginny mission and the plan to free them,came from a a German officer who collaborated with the partisans,the captain of the Kriegsmarine Rudolf Jacobs.

Rudolf Jacobs

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Born in 1914, Rudolf Jacobs was the son of an important architect of Bremen. Expert in fortifications,he was designed in order to strengthen the eastern Ligurian coastline which Rommel feared an Allied landing. He lived in a splendid villa requisitioned,on the hills of Lerici.
Rudol Jacobs arrived at La Spezia in the 1943. Passed to the Italian Resistance 3 September 1944,he died two months later, 3 November 1944, while commanding an action against the Black Brigade quartered in a hotel in Sarzana. Buried in this city, Rudolf Jacobs was awarded the silver medal for military valor, and for many years, in Germany, was considered a "missing".

What led Rudolf Jacobs to abandon the privileges that its design and administrative functions allowed him? To join with the resistance mean to book a meeting with the death. You might even think that he wanted the death as expiation of guilt unbearable, was also to be an instrument of Hitler's extermination.
Rudolf Jacobs he chose to fight against Nazism. When he arrived under the command of partisan Muccini he said: "I would give my life to abbreviate by one minute this senseless war ..."

The partisans discouraged his desire to fight. Rudolf Jacobs could be one of the builders of the new Germany. It was useless. After little action in which he had shown leadership, with ten of his companions, some Russian and Polish nationals, including the Austrian attendant corporal Johann Fritz,that had followed him, and the Italians who could look like German soldiers, he prepared the attack to the garrison of the "Black Brigade" of Sarzana. The fascists in there torturing political prisoners and abused women. It was necessary to give a sign of strength and justice to the city. At dinner time, in a dark 3 November 1944, in ten against seventy, marched through the city ...

On 3 November 1944, when darkness fell, a patrol of German soldiers came to the door of a hotel in Sarzana in which they were swept seventy black brigades. Commanded the patrol a young officer, tall, skinny, blond, who asked in a broken Italian to speak with the manager of the barracks. As soon as the door is opened the German officer pointed his machinenpistole, killing the guard. He threw himself, then, beyond the threshold, but his weapon stopped firing. Numerous shots of the Black Brigades joined him and his Austrian attendant Johann Fritz,the other partisans retreated,and left the bodies of Rudolf Jacobs and Johann Fritz in the black brigade hands.
4 fascists were killed and 6 injured.
A partisan brigade took his name and fought in his name until April 25, 1945. That a German captain wanted to share with them the struggle for liberation from Nazi-Fascism is still a source of pride in La Spezia.

The son of a famous architect of Bremen, Rudolf Jacobs was a bourgeois, a Democrat. Considered "missing" by the Germans until a few years ago, in Italy he was awarded a silver medal and he is buried together with Johann Fritz in Sarzana ...(La Spezia)

The Rudolf Jacobs family wasn't informed of his death until February 1957, when he was tracked down by Paolino Ranieri , the Brigade Commander and later mayor of Sarzana city for 25 years. In the place of the front porch was paid by the City of Sarzana a remember plaque-1953

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98946&stc;=1&d;=1359844273

Rudolf Jacobs marathon

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The authorities of the city of la spezia made everything because the story of Rudolf Jacobs was recognized even in Germany, but German authorities ignored all these appeals,for them he was only a missing!!?

In 2007 the Italian authorities managed to bring the case of Rudolf Jacobs at the European Parliament.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98951&stc;=1&d;=1359844673

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In Germany it needs to wait until 2010 that Rudolf Jacobs is publicly honored by his hometown. When asked by the Senate of Bremen to honor Rudolph Jacobs turned to its 22 elected councilors, only an adviser replied in the affirmative way, making possible the resolution of September 9, 2010, under which "a plaque of honor 'must be placed in the monument to the Unknown deserter in the civic center of Gustav Heinemann Vegesack, northern district of the city.

cheers

Max

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#13 bamboo43

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:03 PM

Stupendous thread Max, many thanks for posting it for us to view.
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The boldest measures are the safest.

Chindit Chasing, Operation Longcloth 1943

#14 Rabbit

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:50 AM

There are many gaps to fill in the history of the second War in Italy. One of these concerns the reconstruction, which is extremely difficult,of the desertions of german soldiers, especially by soldiers and officers who joined the guerrilla forces or, as happened for the Freies Deutschland Bataillon-composed of deserters from Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia,that formed guerrilla units that fought against the German forces. (The Freies Deutschland Bataillon worked together with the italian partisans of the divisions Val Carnia near the border with Austria in South Tyrol and in Belluno area. The Freies Deutschland Battalion had a logistics base near the Pass of Globetrotter and when, in early May 1945, the German army completed retreat from Italy, pressed by the Allies and committed by the partisans, taking the Brenner route,the Freies Deutschland Battalion went to inside of Carinthia cooperating with British intelligence to the capture of Nazi war criminals. The difficulty of the research arises from the fact that those who participated in the partisan warfare concealed his identity, assuming a fictitious name ("battle"), due to the well-founded fear of reprisals against family members. For deserters from the Wehrmacht is also to consider their special situation investing the honor of belonging to the department, because of a betrayal inconceivable in military tradition, reasons which induced their superiors to record the loss as if it was caused by factors of war.

The consequence was that, until now, defectors take their story for them. Some do not want to reveal their names, others only reluctantly and casually tell their experiences. In a small town in Piedmont, at least all the older ones know Charles (the name was changed,Charles has deserted from the Wehrmacht.) Met the partisans, he joined them. He did not want to touch a weapon: he helped in the kitchen. After the war, Charles decided to live in Italy.

Hans Schmidt, was born in 1914 in Berlin,soldier since 1939, in the summer of 1944 he was stationed with his unit in Albinea / Reggio Emilia.
In 1944, as a radio operator, was dependent on the Luftwaffe in Albinea (Reggio Emilia). For months, Schmidt was in contact with the partisans. Together with Oddino Cattini project the foundation of a unit that would accommodate partisan German deserters. Schmidt wanted to give the radio operator to the partisans and two officers of the Luftwaffe, which gave criminal orders. Other soldiers of the Wehrmacht - Erwin Bucher, Erwin Schlunder, Karl-Martin Koch and Heunz Schrever - supported him. The action was already underway when an Allied plane launch and provoke a flare in the alarm station.Schmidt resisted arrest and was shot. Bucher was shot while fleeing,even the other three were shot to death.

As part of the 50 years since the Liberation-1995, Hans Schmidt, Erwin Bucher, Erwin Schlunder, Karl-Heunz Schrever and Martin Koch were awarded an honorary citizenship from the city of Albinea (Reggio Emilia). The daughter of Hans Schmidt, Eva Watchkow, participate in the ceremony,in 1997/98 resulted in a twinning Albinea Treptow / Köpenick (Berlin), where Hans Schmidt was born.
All of them are buried in the large military cemetery Costermano (Lake Garda).


Hans Schmidt

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99205&stc;=1&d;=1360063276



The passage of Germans in the ranks of the Italian resistance movement was not limited 'to individual cases but reached significant proportions. "In all regions of the north Italy, without exception, the presence of Germans in the main partisan been shown,ex partisan Qualierni Alberto says :"I do not remember their names,regarding the reason for their defection, I remember they told, when they want to say something, that the separation or the ruin of their family under the bombs had convinced them that this unbearable situation, this war had to end ".
Others, like the GAP activist with the nom de guerre Enz, born in Berlin, came from anti-Fascist circles. Enz, whose family was murdered in German concentration camps, for in the clutches of the he SS and was tortured to death without revealing the location of the positions of the partisans.

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You can not say with certainty that the deserters with a strong will to resist are the majority. Fernando Cavazzini, nom de guerre Toni, was a partisan Emilian Apennines. Even in his unit there were deserters: "Those who were with us were all soldiers of the Wehrmacht. People who did not feel like war. For this reason most of them did not want to take part in armed actions against the German units of the Wehrmacht. They knew, until shortly before their comrades were keeping themselves and wanted out. They worked with us, support was important, but often did not want to take direct part in armed actions. Perhaps it would have been different if we had to attack the Nazi special units.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99208&stc;=1&d;=1360063562


Many german deserters were passed by the partisans on the other side of the front, where they surrendered and were taken prisoner by the Allies. The runners showed the way for deserters. Sometimes partisans actively helped desertion. Deserters were influenced in their decision by the activity of anti-fascist forces of unrest in their ranks, or the resistance of the Allies, played an important part of the charm of the country, language skills, contacts with local women and men or contacts with the partisans.


The number of soldiers deserted in Italy had reached considerable size ga in the summer of 1944. According to a report of the secret police in July 1944, in the area of ​​Civitella 721 soldiers deserted. There are only individual documents on the frequency of desertions in Italy. There are no reliable figures about the size of the presence of German deserters alongside the partisans.

One of the best known german deserter in Italy was the writer Alfred Andersch,leaved his unit in April 1944 and he was arrested by partisans near Rome. About his decision to desert, his thoughts and fears he relates in his book "The cherries of freedom" published in 1952. After his desertion was prisoner of war, arrival in a camp for "anti-Nazis Considered" and from there he is committed against Nazi Germany.

Alfred Andersch

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99209&stc;=1&d;=1360063844
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99210&stc;=1&d;=1360063968


In World War II more than 100.000 German soldiers have deserted. Against the Wehrmacht deserters captured Justice acted with ruthless hardness: 22,750 so-called deserters were sentenced to death. Many were killed in the last days of the war. The basis of the will to pursue the deserters was also the image of the social-Darwinist defector injury for the Wehrmacht. " According to a text of the military lawyer Erich Schwinge,which later took a stand against the rehabilitation of deserters from the German Federal Republic, "The deserters were largely handicapped psychopaths." And so chased the deserters, until the last days of the war, the Wehrmacht, the SS and civilians. Again May 13, 1945, in an Allied prison camp near Amsterdam, two deserters were executed by their comrades.


two german deserters with italian partisans

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99212&stc;=1&d;=1360064089


If the decision to defect was made by an act of resistance to the awareness of the criminal character of the German war of annihilation or for personal reasons is of secondary importance. All those who have rejected the injustice of this war deserve in their own way a recognition.

Opportunistic interpretations and memories of war have caused confusion in the post-war German society a contempt of the deserters. Up to 90s to their widows pension was refused. The federal governments have to wait until 2002 to rehabilitate the deserters. However, those who joined the partisans are excluded from rehabilitation as "traitors." Switch on the side of those fighting the Nazis continues to be a crime.

Max

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#15 Rabbit

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:53 AM

Vienna honour Austria's Nazi army deserters

BBC News - Vienna to honour Austria's Nazi army deserters

more about german deserters

Germany's Wwii Deserters Are Combating Resentment A 50-year Struggle. - Philly.com

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#16 Rabbit

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:30 AM

Northwest Italy April 1945.After an hard fight with fascists and Germans,a group of partisans take possession of weapons and equipments of the fallen enemies.
This helmet was picked up by my uncle Giorgio, partisan, who took part in that battle,and with his revolver scraping away the hated symbol of the Decima Mas,the tricolor shield,only a few spots of red are still visible,he also picked up a Walter P38.
The anchor on the helmet it is not stenciled, it was free-hand painted.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99432&stc;=1&d;=1360318692


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99433&stc;=1&d;=1360318737
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99434&stc;=1&d;=1360318782
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99435&stc;=1&d;=1360318876
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99436&stc;=1&d;=1360318917
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99437&stc;=1&d;=1360318960

Here is my uncle Giorgio 88, who picked up the helmet in April 45.
These pics were taken in March 2011 while he was visiting the place where his brother,Luciano, fell fighting against RSI soldiers of Decima Mas, 14th March 1944.


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99438&stc;=1&d;=1360319106

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99439&stc;=1&d;=1360319145
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99440&stc;=1&d;=1360319214

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#17 Rabbit

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:46 AM

My uncle Luciano, in the Middle, with two friends, also them partisans,both of them killed by fascists and nazis.
On the left, Antonio, captured and hanged Nov 1944,on the right, Pietro, surrounded by the nazis- fascists committed suicide by shooting himself,February 1945.
This photo was taken in the early summer of 1943.


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99441&stc;=1&d;=1360319627



The yellow arrow marks the site of the battle where my uncle Luciano fell fighting against RSI fascists soldiers.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99442&stc;=1&d;=1360319925




http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99443&stc;=1&d;=1360319988


This is the revolver with which my uncle Giorgio scraping off the tricolor shield of the helmet.
It is an Enfield 38 Revolver, often referred to as the Tankers revolver, it has a spurless hammer to avoid accidental firing double action only,,it was parachuted by the Allied.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99444&stc;=1&d;=1360320182




http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99445&stc;=1&d;=1360320226
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99446&stc;=1&d;=1360320279
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99452&stc;=1&d;=1360320321

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#18 Rabbit

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:04 AM

Walter p38 picked up together with the helmet by my uncle Giorgio,April 1945.


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99453&stc;=1&d;=1360321059
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99454&stc;=1&d;=1360321096
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99455&stc;=1&d;=1360321150
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99456&stc;=1&d;=1360321188
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99457&stc;=1&d;=1360321241
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99458&stc;=1&d;=1360321287
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99459&stc;=1&d;=1360321324
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99460&stc;=1&d;=1360321395
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99461&stc;=1&d;=1360321427

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#19 arnhem44

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:37 AM

...Shortly after landing, all members of the unit were captured by an enemy patrol. Although they were all properly dressed in US Army uniform and should have been considered and treated as prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention, the entire unit was secretly executed by the Nazis a few days following their capture.

Wehrmacht General Dostler, in charge of the Italian Territory and who ordered the execution of the 15 agents, was later tried in Rome as a “war criminal” after Germany’s surrender and sentenced to death in December of 1945. His case created the legal precedent for the Nuremberg trials.
..



I love reading these short "documentaries". Beautiful locations as well.


Two points came to my mind when reading your thread:
1) Dostler had kept his uniform on all along (during process, during execution) . The Nurnberg accused did not.
Why is that ? Was it felt that taking away the uniform strips away the accused of their dignity and arrogance ?
The reverse effect could also spring to mind: the accused in their civilian clothes appear much less arrogant, stern and dangerous. Which may turn the public opinion (e.g Albert Speer).
Who decided to allow to keep on or take of the uniform in trials ?

2) Often, and here too, it is disapproved that commandos in uniform were executed or ordered to be executed by the germans as it is supposedly(!) in contradiction with "the" (!) geneva Convention also signed by the germans (by the Nazis?) before.
Apart from the realisation that there is no "one" convention, and that the POW treatment was signed in 1929 (so not by the nazis), you'll find, as there are no clear descriptions, you could argue when or when not a clandestine operation is considered a part of the normal act of conflict or when it is seen as treacherous backstabbing attacks.
Spies are arrested and executed immediately. So how is a commando (not like in combination with a landing force, but such as SOE) different?
Well, it is the "having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance " and " of carrying arms openly". And werent't the SOE (such as here in italy) not all about going in, in the cover of darkness, blackened faces, not showing signs, and not carrying guns openly ?

In view of the occupying germans they "expect" that once a country was subdued/occupied that their armed forces and inhabitants live by that new order. Any violent attacks on persons or property is an act of terrorism/franc-tireur. and hence can and should be resolved with the hardest measure. If you want to fight..find your exile government/troops and fight from there.

But more examplary is the reaction of a certain veteran here on the forum about what to do with german snipers in 1943 - 1945 who stayed behind in villages , let the allied first wave go past, and then shot allied commanders and troops.
Were they not also in german uniform when caught? Were they not also entitled to protection of the geneva conference ?
Nope, the veteran (Sapper?) was stern: we killed them always (upon capturing) and so it should be when found "behind the front".

So where is the difference here ?:unsure:

Edited by arnhem44, 08 February 2013 - 11:46 AM.

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#20 Rabbit

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:29 PM

I think Dostler kept his uniform-without the swastika symbol-because the Americans considered him not a top criminal,perhaps he was considered as a german officer who did a bad/wrong order,that's only my opinion I don't know who decided to allow him to keep his uniform during the trial.

About your nr2 question I think you have to find the answer in the war itself.
During the ww2 rafs pilots were given the order to shot down parachute enemy to shot down enemy planes with the red cross completely unarmed......this is should be against the geneve convention......how about the " terror bombing" the main target were the germans cities,not military targets,only civilians,most of them were women and children,terror bombing killed more than 1 million people 99% of them were civilians.......this strategy has not shortened the war by a single day.


both sides made criminal acts,the war itself is a criminal act against the humanity,any war is against the humanity,how about the torture inflicted to prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq,they should be against the geneva convention.

I think the Geneva Convention was made to regulate the war,but how you can regulate the war...how you can pretend to regulate something so terrible something so bad so terrifying...you can't.
in every war in every conflict there are huge interests,the ww2 began in 1939 ended after 6 years in 1945....the war in Afghanistan and Iraq began more than 10 years ago and not finish yet.......I think there is something not clear,someone making a very good deal with this bloody war,there are HUGE interest behind this war.

the war against the nazis was a fair war between bad and good,ok but step back stop for a second and think .......what's happened after the ww1.....the United Nations, the victorious nations have humiliated germany favoring the rise of nationalist movements,they have contributed to the rise of Hitler they made Hitler,instead of helping the peaceful reconstruction in germany,instead to build good and friendly relationship with germany they preferred to put down to humiliated an entire nation,an entire people,they laid the groundwork for World War II.

the same is happening today....Greece in crisis and humiliated by the European Union, primarily from Germany,help rising the Ultra-Nationalism,like Nazism.

we have to ban the war,we MUST ban the war the armies like in Costa Rica,the have banned the army 50 years ago,but to do that we have to ban all the religions,religions have been made for divide the people,instead of bringing people together.

I want to live in peace with the entire world,for me there is no honor for those who fight with weapons and kill other people,the honor is for those who fight without weapons for peace,for those who fight without weapons and risk their lives to save other lives.


A fierce beast sleeps in each of us........the war awakens it

Rufio Elio Vatreno
Roman centurion-147 AD


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#21 Rabbit

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:22 PM

In view of the occupying germans they "expect" that once a country was subdued/occupied that their armed forces and inhabitants live by that new order. Any violent attacks on persons or property is an act of terrorism/franc-tireur. and hence can and should be resolved with the hardest measure.


Battles against partisans were particularly fierce and few prisoners were ever taken. The German men that fought the partisans regarded them as little more than bandits and criminals (they were called “Banden”), but knew that some were well organized. They also knew that when engaged, the partisans put up a bitter fight because they had nothing to lose. If captured, they would most likely be shot or hanged as traders and saboteurs, and they knew this,so the partisans preferred to fight to the death rather than falling prisoners, many committed suicide to avoid being caught.






anti partisans summary executions, massacres, retaliations in italy.



for the Nazi-fascists the partisans were a big problem and they did everything possible to eliminate them.......the nazifascists tried to eliminate the problem with public executions...the terror of the death



http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99598&stc;=1&d;=1360505279


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99599&stc;=1&d;=1360505320
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99600&stc;=1&d;=1360505360

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99601&stc;=1&d;=1360505671
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99602&stc;=1&d;=1360505709

Nazi prohibited to cut down the corpses of the hanged partisans for days left their bodies being hanged till severely decomposition.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99603&stc;=1&d;=1360505974
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99604&stc;=1&d;=1360506014
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99605&stc;=1&d;=1360506052
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99606&stc;=1&d;=1360506096
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99607&stc;=1&d;=1360506134

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#22 Rabbit

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:38 PM

Northern Italy,massacres of civilians,17-19 August 1944

Crime Scene Investigation-after over 70 years.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99608&stc;=1&d;=1360506668
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99609&stc;=1&d;=1360506731
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99610&stc;=1&d;=1360506813

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99611&stc;=1&d;=1360506851
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99612&stc;=1&d;=1360506888
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99613&stc;=1&d;=1360507040
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99614&stc;=1&d;=1360507071
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99615&stc;=1&d;=1360507103

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#23 Rabbit

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:51 PM

http://www.ww2talk.c...=1&d=1360507447

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99623&stc;=1&d;=1360507490
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99624&stc;=1&d;=1360507522
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99625&stc;=1&d;=1360507708
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99626&stc;=1&d;=1360507742
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99627&stc;=1&d;=1360507782
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99628&stc;=1&d;=1360507817
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99629&stc;=1&d;=1360507848

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#24 Rabbit

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:01 PM

http://www.ww2talk.c...=1&d=1360508048
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99634&stc;=1&d;=1360508082
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99635&stc;=1&d;=1360508117
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99636&stc;=1&d;=1360508219


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99637&stc;=1&d;=1360508253


Number and classification of the victims:
159 victims: 70 women (15 children, 39 adults, 10 elderly,
6 age unknown), 89 men (11 children, 57 adults, 12 elderly,
5 age unknown, 4 unidentified bodies)

The oldest victim was 77,the youngest was 5
in memory of all innocents killed and a reminder of human stupidity.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99638&stc;=1&d;=1360508444




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#25 Rabbit

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:09 PM

On April 25 the Committee of National Liberation of Northern Italy summoned the people to carry out a general armed uprising. From April 25 to 27 the uprising spread throughout the occupied sector of Italy. On April 26 the large German fascist garrison of Genoa surrendered to the insurgent people. On the next day the chief city of northern Italy, Milan, was liberated, and the fascist Republic of Salo ceased to exist. On April 28, after bloody combat, the partisans entered Turin. On the same day there was an uprising in Venice. As a result of the uprising all of northern Italy was liberated from the yoke of the German and Italian fascists by the patriot forces by the end of April,but the uprising open another chapter of death, the revenge of the partisan was not less bloody than the nazifascists retaliations against the partisan and the civilians.
The main target of the partisans were the italian fascists, collaborators and ss.

0j1ftplCg6o


UNeI3FjRtP0



Some sources says that the fascists and nazis executed in April 1945 were between 150,000 and 200,000,other sources says more than 300,000.
It is very difficult to know the exact number of fascists and Nazis killed in Italy by the partisans because the bodies were mostly buried anywhere, on the mountains, thrown into the sea or rivers,the enemies still enemies even after death,to the enemies was not granted the honor of a worthy burial.


Crime Scene Investigation

Northern Italy 2008

Germans and italian fascists soldiers killed by partisans April 1945 and thrown into this natural hole 85 meters deep.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99640&stc;=1&d;=1360511821

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99641&stc;=1&d;=1360511904

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99642&stc;=1&d;=1360511965



the map of the hole,Nr 1 entrance,Nr 2 bottleneck,Nr 3 small hill of debris thrown over the past 70 years,Nr 4 bottom of the hole 85 meters below ground level.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99643&stc;=1&d;=1360512126



http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99645&stc;=1&d;=1360512488

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99646&stc;=1&d;=1360512538



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#26 Rabbit

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:24 PM

http://www.ww2talk.c...=1&d=1360512745
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99648&stc;=1&d;=1360512820

the final briefing before going down in the hole.
in the last days and after the war, in the hole were thrown down unexploded ordinance,so no possible dig up to find human remains, it would be very dangerous, only recovering the human remains found on the ground level.


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99649&stc;=1&d;=1360513102

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99650&stc;=1&d;=1360513158

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99651&stc;=1&d;=1360513201

The bottom of the hole-85 meters below the ground level
I will post the rest of the photos the next days


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99652&stc;=1&d;=1360513369

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#27 GPO's Son

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:48 PM

Rabbit excellent work much of it from first sourcesWow
Thanks
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#28 Rabbit

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 06:34 PM

Tx gpo's son

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100075&stc;=1&d;=1361039223
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100076&stc;=1&d;=1361039266
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100077&stc;=1&d;=1361039301
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100078&stc;=1&d;=1361039387
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100079&stc;=1&d;=1361039419
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100080&stc;=1&d;=1361039451
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100081&stc;=1&d;=1361039484
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100082&stc;=1&d;=1361039671

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#29 Rabbit

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 06:43 PM

http://www.ww2talk.c...=1&d=1361039806
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100084&stc;=1&d;=1361039847
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100085&stc;=1&d;=1361039883
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100086&stc;=1&d;=1361039923
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100087&stc;=1&d;=1361040084
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100088&stc;=1&d;=1361040124
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100089&stc;=1&d;=1361040157
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100090&stc;=1&d;=1361040195

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#30 Rabbit

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 06:52 PM

http://www.ww2talk.c...=1&d=1361040610
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100098&stc;=1&d;=1361040742

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