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Greece wouldn't find it easy to leave the euro

The world has moved on since monetary union was founded, as the Greek debt crisis is proving

Protest outside Greek parliament

A protest outside the Greek parliament triggered by fears that new austerity measures will be introduced to clinch a bailout from the European Union and International Monetary Fund. Photograph: Louisa Gouliamaki/AFP/Getty Images

The crisis threatening to spread out from Greece to the other vulnerable members of the single currency has exposed a problem. Europe has copious and precise rules for countries wishing to join the monetary union. There are no contingencies for a country that wants to leave.

Yet the recent stand-off between German taxpayers reluctant to bankroll a rescue package and Greek voters unwilling to stomach the even tougher austerity conditions being demanded by Berlin has meant that this is an issue no longer being ignored.

The short answer to the question of how a country would leave the euro is: with extreme difficulty, at considerable cost and only as a last resort. It would first have to consider the three Ds – devaluation, debt and default.

In theory, this could happen smoothly enough. A country would announce its decision to leave and would go back to issuing its former currency. The value of that currency – shorn of the protection from the euro's safety blanket – would fall sharply. The weaker currency would provide a boost to competitiveness but would add to the domestic value of the country's debts. Interest rates on that debt would also rise, making it harder for the country to meet its obligations. It would then seek to restructure its debt, asking its creditors to "take a haircut" – accept a loss.

But in the chaos of a financial crisis, it might not be possible to operate in such a textbook fashion. The member state might default on its debts first, triggering exit from the euro and a run on its currency. Or it might be asked to leave.

Jonathan Loynes, chief European economist at Capital Economics, said: "[Leaving the euro] would be extremely difficult for all sorts of logistical reasons." But if countries could overcome technical issues to give up their national currencies in the first place, then there would be a way of putting the process into reverse.

Mats Persson, director of the Open Europe thinktank, said: "There is no mechanism on the table [for leaving the euro] at all. They haven't thought about it."

That's not quite true. Last December, the European Central Bank (ECB) published a working paper called Withdrawal and Expulsion from the EU and Emu, but it concluded that a "member state's exit from Emu [economic and monetary union] without a parallel withdrawal from the EU would be legally inconceivable". Nor would it would be much easier for a country to be kicked out by the other members. "A member state's expulsion from the EU or Emu would be legally next to impossible."

The reason nobody at the ECB in Frankfurt or at the European commission in Brussels has drawn up a blueprint for exit from the single currency is that the assumption has always been that once a nation joins the "project" it does so for good. "Until recently, to talk of secession from the EU would have been next to absurd," the ECB paper noted. "The same could be said of voluntary exit from Emu."

Persson said he suspected political motives behind the ECB paper: "They wanted to put pressure on the Greeks to get their act together."

The Greeks have not done so, or at least not well enough to satisfy Angela Merkel, Germany's chancellor, who has won strong popular support for her uncompromising stance.

Stephen Lewis, chief economist at Monument Securities, said that the proposal from Merkel's Christian Democratic Union party that Greek sovereign debt should take a haircut offered a "plausible" way of ejecting weaker members from the eurozone. He points out: "If 'haircuts', and the associated capital losses for holders, are to be a standard feature of bailouts for eurozone member states, investors will be nervous of holding the sovereign debt of any member that could conceivably run into debt difficulties.

"The flight of capital from these sovereign debtors might precipitate their break with the euro. It is not surprising, therefore, that the EU commission and the ECB, institutions whose authority rests on a broadly extended eurozone, are resisting the 'haircut' idea."

For the time being, the odds are on the Germans finally agreeing to a bailout. But Persson said that an alternative would be for the eurozone to split into a German-led inner core and an outer core made of a weaker group of countries, which would not include Greece.

The problem, says David Owen, chief European financial economist at Jefferies Fixed Income, is that the world has moved since monetary union was founded: "When it was put together nobody wanted to think about a break-up, because as soon as you tell people they have a get-out-of-jail card the more likely it is that the system would bust apart. But after the Lehman Brothers collapse everybody is very much aware that everything is interconnected."


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  • SPANAR SPANAR

    29 Apr 2010, 9:36PM

    Misleading photo.

    Only 50 people demonstrated in Athens for the measures!!!!!!!!!! See it it Greek tv channel.

    The majority of the Greek people DEMAND more measures in order to overcome the crisis as soon as possible. I cannot find a reason why Greeks would really opposite to the austerity measures, as it is promoted in press. It is not true.

    As a matter of fact, only employees in public sector are concerned, because of the reduction of their wages. Private sector has nothing to worry about, and pushes for the government to take action and prevent deep crisis.

    An another point i want to make: i heard today Greek stock market had 7% raise.

  • dumbperson dumbperson

    29 Apr 2010, 10:01PM

    we should join as any club hard to leave must be worth a look in

    but for currencey speculators it is best to stay out as teh Pound is a greta volatile currencey

    but for the good of price stability - of course the euro is good- but then UK governments would not have been able to depreciate the pound as it has fallen 60plus % in the last 20 years

    so the doomwith the euro is like so much political lies

  • chat1955 chat1955

    29 Apr 2010, 10:02PM

    Its easy to understand Germany's reluctance to bail out the Greeks, apart from the obvious one that they will have to sign the largest cheque. One only has to compare the work ethics of germans - long hours, efficient systems and a culture of deference to authority, with the greeks rather homegrown "Manyana" "Live for today" attitude. Im not saying either are wrong - in fact the greek way of life seems very sensible and appealing, but if you are a member of an economic union then you cant expect to rest on your oars.

  • darthbandon darthbandon

    29 Apr 2010, 10:12PM

    SPANAR

    I can think of many reason, like why the poor and lower middle class will suffer the most while the rich will still just bribe the tax man and get off free. When push comes to shove the poor suffer most, and they will be pushed to a point where they have nothing to loose, a very bad situation.

  • IchBinEinstein IchBinEinstein

    29 Apr 2010, 10:50PM

    This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted.
  • Optymystic Optymystic

    29 Apr 2010, 11:34PM

    I'm not sure this probes all the issues, beyond the very superficial.

    So Greece withdraws, issues Drachs, pays its domestic bills like Greek public sector wages in Drachs and pensions. So far so good. But it cannot borrow in Drachs, because no one will lend to it in anything but a currency like dollars or euros that offers convertibility and some degree of certainty. It cannot stop the private sector and tourist industry accepting euros, in fact it needs that. Anyone else remember when the Mark was the currency across much of Europe, when you couldn't buy anything in zlotys. Greece would end up with two parallel currencies with its domestic currency probably pegged for practical purposes against the euro, thus defeating the object. If consenting adults accept monopoly money as currency, then currency i.e. money it is, so a decree from Brussels cannot stop the Greeks using euros as their currency, if that is what the populace insists on doing and in Greece european international convertibility might in many places like Cyprus or Kerkyra be more important than a currency's acceptability to the state bank.

  • TobyIncher TobyIncher

    30 Apr 2010, 12:03AM

    April 28 (Reuters) - From a bonus for showing up to work to a dead father's pension going to an unmarried daughter, arcane benefits bloat Greece's budget by billions of euros a year. As part of its efforts to end its debt crisis and escape
    default, Greece has pledged to start cutting back on such largesse, but decades of chaotic accounting at ministries means the exact statistics are hard to come by. Below are examples of some of the spending the government could cut:

    SPOILED SPINSTERS
    Tens of thousands of unmarried or divorced daughters of
    civil servants collect their dead parents' pensions, weighing on
    a social security system experts say will collapse in 15 years
    unless it is overhauled.
    About 40,000 women benefit from the allowance at an annual
    cost of around 550 million euros, according to economic website
    capital.gr.
    While the law protects civil servants from dismissal, it
    allows them to retire with a pension in their 40s.
    Greek pension spending is expected to rise by 12 percent of
    gross domestic product by 2050, according to EU Commission data.
    That compares with an EU average of less than 3 percent of GDP.
    The government has pledged to overhaul the social security
    system by raising the retirement age and banning early
    retirement. It plans a bill by May.

    CHRISTMAS PRESENTS
    In a system where bonuses can add 5 to 1,300 euros to a
    monthly paycheck, some civil servants are paid extra for using a
    computer. Some get a bonus for speaking a foreign language and
    others for arriving at work on time, while many foresters get a
    bonus for working outdoors.
    All Greek public and private sector workers get 14 salaries
    a year, a structure aimed at keeping basic monthly salaries, and
    the pensions that are based on them, low.
    Half a month's extra salary is paid at Easter and another
    half during the summer. The 14th salary is paid to civil
    servants at Christmas when the whole economy is geared to
    consuming it; taxis, restaurants and hairdressers are legally
    allowed to charge extra as "a Christmas present".
    The government has already trimmed most bonuses by 12
    percent and Christmas and Easter salary bonuses by 30 percent as
    part of its austerity plan, saving 1.7 billion euros.

    FLYING FOR FREE
    Labour unions foiled government attempts to sell debt-ridden
    Olympic Airways for decades, costing Greek taxpayers millions
    while employees enjoyed generous benefits -- their family
    members could fly around the world for free.
    The EU took disciplinary measures against Athens for pouring
    state money into the loss-making airline, even after private
    local airlines began servicing similar routes for less.
    Olympic was sold in 2008, but only after the state lavishly
    compensated or re-hired about 4,600 employees. Many blocked
    Athens' thoroughfares recently because they had not received all
    their severance money.
    The state owns 74 companies, mainly utilities and transport
    firms, many of which are overstaffed and loss-making, the OECD
    says. The main rail company employs about 9,000 people and
    reported losses of 800 million euros in 2008.
    The government has said it will merge some state companies
    and sell stakes in others.

    COMMITTEE FOR WHAT?
    Hundreds of state-appointed committees employ staff though
    it is not clear what they all do. Greece has a committee to
    manage Lake Kopais, which dried out in the 1930s.
    One Greek paper estimated that committees employ more than
    10,000 people and cost over 220 million euros a year.
    Coming through on a pre-election pledge to cut such waste,
    the government recently announced it would shut down or merge at
    least 200 such committees that have outlived their usefulness.

    COSTLY ARMS
    Tensions with arch-rival Turkey have kept Greek military
    spending well above that of other EU members, reaching 14
    billion euros, or 6 percent of GDP, in 2007 and 2009.
    Budget woes have limited military procurements and the 2010
    defence budget now stands at 6.7 billion euros ($8.92 billion).
    But nearly 80 percent of Defence Ministry spending goes on
    administrative costs and payments of army staff. The government
    has said it will gradually reduce costs and spending on arms
    purchases will be contained to 1.8 billion euros (0.7 percent of
    GDP) this year.

  • smellybeard smellybeard

    30 Apr 2010, 12:28AM

    Many countries left the Sterling Area in the past. There is nothing impossible involved in it.

    The key issue is that there is no benefit for a country in a debt crisis to leave a powerful currency union. Greece's debt is largely denominated in Euro and re-creating a soft national currency will just make it harder to fix.

    It would be slightly different if Germany decided to ditch the Euro - in that case the NeuMark might rise against the Euro (as the Irish Pound eventually did against sterling). Even then, it would still take years of preparation; replace the mother currency with local script and re-establsh massive national reserves.

    Anyway I don't see the point. A hard currency that I can buy beer with in five countries in four hours is difficult to beat. It buys more beer today than it did when it was new and that too is nice.

  • BoutrosDiveris BoutrosDiveris

    30 Apr 2010, 1:06AM

    @chat1955

    "compare the work ethics of germans - long hours, efficient systems and a culture of deference to authority,"

    Your comment is rather chauvinist, bigoted as our own PM said.

    "with the greeks rather homegrown "Manyana"

    I take it manyana is a bad spelling of mañana, a Spanish word. I don't know where you heard this word, maybe in movies with "lazy Mexicans." What I do know is that for every hard working (?700 a month) Greek, there are at least another three on double salary working in the extended public sector. It is, however, the ?700 a month people who are taking the rap from people like you, and who will be footing the bill. Eleos as they say in Greek (mercy dear moderator.)

  • biba3mejico biba3mejico

    30 Apr 2010, 4:16AM

    It's all Greek to me ...... maybe they could join the Sterling area ....

    The Euro is not good monetary policy .... it's all social engineering. North europe could all use one currncy and southern europe another ....

    The two currencies would be like double Dutch and Greek .. no communication between them.

    I'll think I've tried too hard. Sorry.

  • IanCb IanCb

    30 Apr 2010, 6:15AM

    Were Greece not in the Euro it would have devalued and the government would never have to deal with its mismanagement. This way at least they are held to account, painful as it may be.

    Those who oppose Britain joining the Euro should reflect that if we had joined earlier it is unlikely the government spending spree of the last 10 years would have happened on such a scale and we wouldn't be in this hole.

    That's the reason Gordon Brown opposed membership, it would have prevented him buying the keys to No10 with taxpayers money.

  • Novelist Novelist

    30 Apr 2010, 6:27AM

    Optymystic:

    Greece would end up with two parallel currencies with its domestic currency probably pegged for practical purposes against the euro, thus defeating the object.

    I have the feeling this is probably true. Consider the analagous situation of Mexico, in the dollar zone. The USD is widely and readily used alongside the peso.

    HOWEVER, this does not "defeat the object". For instance, to deflate salaries and pensions, the Mexican government pays its considerable public sector increases in less than the going rate of inflation, and also the worker loses out because the currency has a tendency to gradually slide against the dollar. So, I believe that the idea of Greece issuing Drachmas and using them for the internal economy could prove an excellent solution.

    TIP: If that happens, be ready to fly over to Greece and buy cheap Drachmas to take advantage of temporary difficulties, nothing like making a fast dollar or two out of other peoples doziness, eh! (Must send my CV to Goldman Sachs)

  • scoffer scoffer

    30 Apr 2010, 6:32AM

    @smellybeard - when other currencies (like the AU$) left the sterling area they did so without unbearable debt burdens, without any external pressure to do so, without the suspicion that it was all a ploy to devalue external sovereign debts, and perhaps most importantly when it wasn't possible to send all your money out of the country by click of a button on the internet. Further, all left shortly after the end of the Bretton Woods fixed exchange rate mechanism ended. When the Irish pound left in 1979, it did so to join the forerunner of the euro. Had sterling joined at the same time, it's likely the British and Irish pounds would never have decoupled.

  • scoffer scoffer

    30 Apr 2010, 6:43AM

    Greece's problem is not uncommon. Every euro of public debt it owes is a euro that a politician used to buy something for the electorate (or perhaps a yacht for himself) but didn't have the balls to tax from the electorate that was benefitting from the spending. Many other countries have done the same and it really has very little to do with the euro, except that the euro improved Greece's credibility on the capital markets - without its own currency to debase and with "strict" Maastricht rules to stop it getting into trouble, the default risk was supposedly gone and they could borrow at interest rates not far above those of more productive economies. So we have the same combination of avaricious borrower and creditor blind to the risk the debtor posed that brought down the American mortgage market. Not to mention the starving of funds from tax-generating and productive private enterprise when the government hoovers up all the available credit.

    Governments that want to play Keynesian deficit spending during recessions (and there is some sense in being able to tap cheaper labour during a downturn while keeping unemployment down) need to remember the flip side - which is run surpluses in the good times.

  • LSEscientist LSEscientist

    30 Apr 2010, 7:21AM

    Why cannot a country use two currencies? Why cannot the Greeks pay their public servants, pensions and internal costs/transfers in new drachmas, while paying old debts in euros? The euros could be collected by charging VAT in terms of euro equivalents (which would create a floating rate of VAT taxation) likewise other taxes.

  • MacCosham MacCosham

    30 Apr 2010, 7:47AM

    To leave the euro would be completely insane as not only Greek public debt, but also Greek private debt is denominated in euros. The most radical option that is even remotely plausible is defaulting on previous debt while staying in the Euro. This of course can only happen if the country is pushed into default by being forced to pay usurious interest. I.e. bank borrowing money from the ECB at 1.5% interest and loaning to Greece at 7%-10% interest. As supposed "insurance against default". Well, if they are "insured" then it is not anethical to expose them to this risk, isit?

  • Ypnos Ypnos

    30 Apr 2010, 9:22AM

    But nearly 80 percent of Defence Ministry spending goes on
    administrative costs and payments of army staff.

    Considering the Greek army has us working as slaves during our national service, I'd like to know where that 80% goes exactly!

  • Gumbo Gumbo

    30 Apr 2010, 9:41AM

    I really don't think that this is in any way imminent, but it's definitely something worth considering and planning for in the future. LSE points out that it's not just the government owing Euro denominated debts, but companies and individuals who have borrowed in Euros. Unpicking this would be extremely painful.

    Having said that, I think Greece will eventually have to default and restructure its debts, possibly leading to leaving the Euro. It really should never have joined in the first place, because the Greek economy is tied to the German/French currency and economy that is fundamentally different (and stronger) than theirs is. The result is that when economic problems strike - and this is the first recession since the inception of the Euro - it's the real economy that has to take the full pain, rather than the currency. It's like the gold standard in the 30s all over again.

  • ColonelCallan ColonelCallan

    30 Apr 2010, 10:47AM

    @BoutrosDiveris
    @chat1955

    "compare the work ethics of germans - long hours, efficient systems and a culture of deference to authority,"

    Total myth that Germans work longer hours, in fact Britain I believe holds that dubious record. The Germans are simply more productive so they can work fewer hours and enjoy many more employee benefits, not least job security; which contrary to the UK 'them and us' management philosophy, actually improves identification with the employer and makes people better motivated and more efficient employees.

  • smellybeard smellybeard

    30 Apr 2010, 11:43AM

    I see that this thread has degraded overnight into "the euro is shite and the greeks are lazy crooks" like all the other threads. I thought the subject of this one was "Greece wouldn't find it easy to leave the euro".

  • smellybeard smellybeard

    30 Apr 2010, 12:24PM

    @scoffer

    when other currencies (like the AU$) left the sterling area they did so without unbearable debt burdens, without any external pressure to do so, without the suspicion that it was all a ploy to devalue external sovereign debts

    Yes, exactly. It's not the leaving that is impossible; it's skiving off and leaving brazillions of debt behind (as I suggested with my NeuMark example).

    Further, all left shortly after the end of the Bretton Woods fixed exchange rate mechanism ended. When the Irish pound left in 1979, it did so to join the forerunner of the euro.

    The 'forerunner of the euro', the ERM, didn't provide much protection for any currency. At best, it provided short term stabilization and only when the Germans felt like it. It took until the mid nineties for the Irish Pound to pass out it's parent and Ireland had a very tough 1980's. I thought the Australian Pound decoupled from sterling in 1929.

    Had sterling joined at the same time, it's likely the British and Irish pounds would never have decoupled.

    I disagree. The break with sterling was going to come one way or another. We were far too dependent on trade with the UK.

  • Eachran Eachran

    30 Apr 2010, 1:03PM

    Divorce is always difficult but it reminds me of that Fred and Ginge film Shall We Dance where in a long and tortuous plot Fred and Ginge get married only to seek a divorce at the same time.

    At the marriage ceremony with the judge Ginge (?) asks

    "What are the grounds for divorce?"

    to which the judge replies

    "Marriage"

  • Gumbo Gumbo

    30 Apr 2010, 1:45PM

    "If greece and the others are part of a european monetary union, how can you buy just greek debt, or portuguese debt, why isn't it just euro debt?"

    Well, mainly because if Greece borrow 10bn Euros then it's them that has to pay it back. It's borrowed in the same way that companies and individuals can borrow in Euros and then they have to pay it back.

  • budgetminder budgetminder

    30 Apr 2010, 2:50PM

    It's not for Greece to leave the Euro - it's for Germany and the stronger economies to leave and set up their own currency free from the problems of countries who were never ready to join the Euro in the first place.

  • JorgeG JorgeG

    30 Apr 2010, 6:14PM

    @ smellybeard

    I see that this thread has degraded overnight into "the euro is shite and the greeks are lazy crooks" like all the other threads.

    I hope you are not genuinely surprised, my smelly friend?

    This a typical British attitude that was superbly defined by Nick Clegg (note, I am not a LibDem, although I consider them the least bad option of the three majors) in a newspaper article a few years ago.:

    "All nations have a cross to bear, and none more so than Germany with its memories of Nazism. But the British cross is more insidious still. A misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur and a tenacious obsession with the last war, is much harder to shake off."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sun-censored-poll-that-showed-support-for-lib-dems-1951940.html

    That would get my vote.

    A "misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur " is the only reason why these threads routinely degrade into "the euro is shite..." and is the also the only reason why the UK is the only EU country that has refused to join both the EU's main pillars, the euro and Schengen.

    There was also an excellent post to one of this long saga of Europorn articles. The poster said:

    And the difference between the EU and the euro is? Please remind me.

  • spirit2534 spirit2534

    30 Apr 2010, 7:50PM

    The main problem with the Euro is that it presupposes an European Superstate.
    Different nations have a different work & save ethos, southern European nations in general have a laisee faire attitude to the Northern European. In the UK the analogy is between the economic power house of the South East compared with some other regions.


    In the US, they have come to expect such differences, celebrate them in some circumstances but pull together as a nation
    .

    In Europe with our bitter divided history such differences are cited as problems rather than opportunities. The Southern European states have different priorities, concerned with life styles, hopes & aspirations from their Northern European neighbours - we need to acknowledge them rather than attack or defend them.

    Europe as a region has contributed significantly to Human experience but it's role is slowly diminishing, it's how we manage the change that will be the key to the future.

  • Imperialist Imperialist

    30 Apr 2010, 11:15PM

    dumbperson wrote:
    we should join as any club hard to leave must be worth a look in

    I hear Guantanamo Bay as well as Lefortovo are hard to leave. Wanna have a look in?

  • MakeBrownToast MakeBrownToast

    1 May 2010, 1:41AM

    @dumbperson
    29 Apr 2010, 10:01PM

    we should join as any club hard to leave must be worth a look in

    but for currencey speculators it is best to stay out as teh Pound is a greta volatile currencey

    but for the good of price stability - of course the euro is good- but then UK governments would not have been able to depreciate the pound as it has fallen 60plus % in the last 20 years

    so the doomwith the euro is like so much political lies

    Sadly dumbperson this is all the result of an experiment

    The EURO is the first attempt in history at a PAPER based currency union

    Loadsa peeps said it would end in tears

    Sadly it will

  • GreatGrandDad GreatGrandDad

    1 May 2010, 2:57AM

    It is taking a long time to work through in all its ramifications, but this is just one more difficulty arising from decoupling money from the 'concrete' base of gold.

    Watch out for more and more mayhem and then a return (within the next generation) to some form of 'the gold standard'.

    I use the word 'mayhem' in both its meanings:
    1. violent or damaging action,
    2. rowdy confusion, chaos.

  • triggerfish999 triggerfish999

    1 May 2010, 6:40AM

    I agree with other posters that leaving the Euro isn't really going to help all that much, except I suppose free the Greek Gov from having to do what the ECB says. Within the country the Euro will be the currency of choice, like US dollars are the currency of choice in many African states (for instance). If strict currency exchange controls are introduced then there'll be a black market for Euros, a la Africa...
    but all this is turning the clock back 30 years aint it? Ah, we are about to get a Tory government here..

  • eurofederal eurofederal

    1 May 2010, 10:08AM

    Leaving the Euro would be nonsense for both the EU and Greece.
    Well, they distorted figures in the past..... the EU should have been more careful then before letting Athens join the single currency. Now, it's too late so we have to cope with that situation on a eurozone- wide level.
    The real question is, can the EU have a single currency without being a federation ? What we need is a real leap forward and get rid of our sickening national pride. No one questions California having the dollar as its currency, why should someone question Greece having or being in the euro?
    the EU needs to become a more federal state, even though some EU countries do not like that idea.
    By becoming a more integrated EU, it does not necessarily mean giving up our specific laws , but accepting to be part of a more integrate Political Union. The Greek crisis clearly shows that the EU we have known does not work when a member state is in deep shit! Not that the other Europeans should pay for Greece's misbehaviours, but solidarity should be the key. The Greeks must accept to hear this and do whatever it takes to get out of that mess.
    Once again, we need a more coordinated EU, not less Europe or getting back to nation-states.

  • MakeBrownToast MakeBrownToast

    1 May 2010, 2:02PM

    @eurofederal
    1 May 2010, 10:08AM

    Leaving the Euro would be nonsense for both the EU and Greece.

    Wait and see - I think it'll ultimately break up. Greece or Spain leaving first

    Well, they distorted figures in the past..... the EU should have been more careful then before letting Athens join the single currency. Now, it's too late so we have to cope with that situation on a eurozone- wide level.

    Indeed the EU hasn't passed it accounts for years - something that a private company wouldn't get away with - directors, prison, disqualification are words that come to mind

    The real question is, can the EU have a single currency without being a federation ? What we need is a real leap forward and get rid of our sickening national pride.

    You mean transfer that 'sickening' national pride to the EU apropos' EU flag, EU Anthem, national worship the EU day?

    No one questions California having the dollar as its currency, why should someone question Greece having or being in the euro?

    The US currency union is a little different - having a common language may have been the clincher - right up there with commonly held values - something the left despises. In addition the Dollar was until 1933 (when the government stole private holdings) a generally GOLD backed currency. As I stated in my previous post the Euro is the first attempt in history at a currency union based on PAPER.

    By becoming a more integrated EU, it does not necessarily mean giving up our specific laws , but accepting to be part of a more integrate Political Union. The Greek crisis clearly shows that the EU we have known does not work when a member state is in deep shit! Not that the other Europeans should pay for Greece's misbehaviours, but solidarity should be the key.

    It would be nice to have a choice about this - however the European ideal from its inception has been conducted in the deliberate absence of choice/democracy -' they know best' seem to have been the case - if the powers that be couldn't a) Work out that Greece should NEVER have been in the Euro and b) That Greece was in deep financial trouble then perhaps 'they' are the most certainly the wrong people to run the show.

    Not that the other Europeans should pay for Greece's misbehaviours, but solidarity should be the key.

    So what do you mean by Solidarity? Greece will either default triggering another wave of this government induced financial disaster or reform. From friends out in Greece I'm told that the private sector welcomes reform, it's only the parasitic state sector that has dug it's heel in.

    Once again, we need a more coordinated EU, not less Europe or getting back to nation-states.

    Oh I see - more government.. lovely stuff.

    Somehow I can't see this happening - have a nice day!

  • gruenebaum gruenebaum

    1 May 2010, 5:06PM

    The whole point of leaving the Euro would be the possibility for Greece to devalue. Greek products and services would get cheaper for customers holding foreign currencies. But there are no Greek products and the only service they offer is tourism. But who would go to a country as a tourist when service is shoddy and people are always on strike? Turkey is just next door and will be hard to beat on price, plus the food is basically the same.

    I really do not see how Greece can ever become competitive. Greeks have the wrong attitude to work and the rest of the world is not standing still. Just check your supermarket shelf: Greek olive oil is more expensive and of lower quality than the Spanish or Italian stuff; Germany and Denmark even make better feta.

    When the Chinese bought expensive German machines, it was to make stuff for the world. All what Greeks bought from Germany was tanks, submarines and luxury cars, and all of that with money they didn't really have.

  • radianteyes radianteyes

    1 May 2010, 6:25PM

    I am Greek and fed up of our half-American prime minister (Chicago is his mother's hometown) and his collaboration with the IMF. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark ... but we wil find out when history finally reveals the backstage of the nightmare that has enveloped my country.

  • NotaTrot NotaTrot

    1 May 2010, 7:36PM

    Contributor Contributor

    Presumably Greece's debt is now denominated in Euros. So even if they left the Euro, that would still be the case. So, presumably leaving the Euro would be pointless in terms of current indebtedness, indeed positively damaging.

    A question.

  • harbinger harbinger

    1 May 2010, 8:20PM

    Fascinating how nobody, and least of all its seems Larry, is prepared to say that there exists a well documented precedent for Greece to leave the Euro--
    --Britain's expulsion from EMU.

    The three Ds as Larry calls them are actually what Greece badly needs to do if it is to right itself. Devaluation is exactly what happened to Britain and nobody in the UK thinks it was a bad thing.

    Debt? Well UK debt is heading skywards at a remarkable rate. Italy has run debt ratios in excess of 100% for decades.

    Default? Why not. Renegotiate with creditors as others have done before from Russia to South America.

    The sorry fact is that this Greek business is seen as saving the Euro. Whereas the Euro would be better served if all the southern European nations were kicked out and only the core countries remained. I would save the Euro by ditching the PIIGS smartish.

    Whatever the outcome whether the Euro survives, orf whether Greece defaults the long term effect is an uncomfortable truth for Britain --- the rise of Germany.

    Eurosceptics are salivating at the possible demise of the Euro, when they should be frightened witless at how this crisis has proved that Germany is prepared to enforce its will and run the EU.

    Something of a shock awaits the next British PM when he realises he is facing and strong, envigorated and powerful Germany. No more Herr Nice Guy, no more cowtowing to the French and certainly no time for a British government in bed with maniacs and idiots in the EU parliament.

    Elsewhere in this newspaper some columnist is whinging about the Germans. And as most CIF folk responding point out -- sounds like sour grapes.

    Germany will push through new and harsher rules for the Euro, stricter and wider bank controls, defends her export markets, ensure her standard of living, protect herself against the wolf pack of the markets (led by the USA and Britain) continue to build close ties with Moscow to protect her interests in Eastern Europe.

    Where is Britain in all of this?

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