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Greek bailout plan: optimism grows ahead of Sunday meeting

Negotiations are taking place in Athens between the EU, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund about the details of the Greek rescue plan

Greek Prime Minister George A. Papandreo

As the French regulator announces that a bailout plan for Greece's debt crisis is nearly complete, PM George Papandreou faces anger from unions and public officials over the austerity package. Photograph: John Thys/AFP/Getty Images

Finance ministers from across the eurozone are holding a conference today ahead of a face-to-face meeting on Sunday which is expected to announce the details of a bailout for Greece.

The news comes as senior politicians from Spain and Portugal, which have been caught up in the panic about the indebtedness of European countries sparked by Greece's problems, attempt to persuade investors that their economies are not in danger.

Intense negotiations are still taking place in Athens between the EU, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund about the details of the Greek rescue plan, with the European commission warning that the entire Greek economy is going to have to be overhauled "root and branch". But there is growing optimism that a deal is imminent.

Reports suggest that the bailout even includes money from the German financial and industrial sector, which has a heavy exposure to Greece, with business leaders being cajoled into action by Deutsche Bank chief executive Josef Ackermann.

"There is a meeting going on now," French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner told Reuters. "And on Sunday European finance ministers (will meet)."

Earlier the French market regulator said a deal could come as early as this evening. "What the markets are looking for is the plan, which will be presented tonight or over the weekend," Jean-Pierre Jouyet, chairman of French regulator AMF told RMC Radio. "It will be done, it is almost completed. I have no doubt about that."

A spokesman for the European commission, however, said he expects talks to conclude tomorrow.

Speculation that a deal on a bailout package that could top €120bn (£104bn) is close comes as Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou continues the difficult task of selling the austerity package that must accompany the bailout to angry union leaders and other public officials in his country.

He told the Greek parliament on Friday that new austerity measures will have to be introduced in order to get the bailout cash. "The measures we must take, which are economic measures, are necessary for the protection of our country. For our survival, for our future, so we can stand firmly on our feet," he said. "It is a patriotic duty to undertake this, with whatever political cost, which is tiny faced with the national cost of inaction ... and indecision."

Greek bank shares rallied again early today, on optimism that a deal was close. They later fell back, though, after ratings agency Moody's downgraded the sector and warned that Greek banks would find it more expensive to borrow in the future.

The Greek government has already announced a €4.8bn austerity package that has pruned the pay of civil servants and hiked taxes but deep budget cuts coupled with an increase in taxes – possibly including a dramatic hike in VAT – are now being planned to deal with the worst economic crisis in Greece since the civil war, 60 years ago. There are fears that the plans will lead to widespread public unrest with union leaders already calling a 24-hour general strike on 5 May.

Germany is in line to be the largest contributor to the bailout fund and has insisted that Greece attempts to rebalance its books. The legislation needed in the German parliament to approve its part of the bailout plan could be wrapped up within a week, according to German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.

The bailout plan also reportedly includes up to €2bn from Germany's private sector, which is heavily exposed to the Greek crisis. Deutsche Bank chief executive Josef Ackermann is reported to be co-ordinating the involvement of German financial and industrial companies.

Among continental European banks, analysts at Evolution earlier this week calculated that Fortis, Dexia, CASA and Société Générale are most affected because of the value of their Greek debt holdings relative to their size.

According to Barclays Capital, meanwhile, UK banks account for only 3% of the exposure to Greek bonds, while data from the Bank for International Settlements shows that, at the end of 2009, Greece owed about $240bn (£160bn) overseas. Of this, France and Germany have the biggest exposures of $75bn and $45bn respectively.

SPAIN AND PORTUGAL

Portugal's prime minister Jose Socrates, meanwhile, has told his country's parliament that the government will take all necessary measures to reduce the national debt and restore investor confidence. He has held meetings with the leader of the country's main opposition party about reducing the public budget and introducing other austerity measures, which marked "a new phase of constructive political dialogue".

Earlier this week Standard & Poor's reduced its credit rating for the country by two notches, from A+ to A-, amid concerns that the government will be unable to get the deficit under control. The country's economy has barely grown in the past 10 years.

Spain's economy minister Elena Salgado, meanwhile, has mounted a concerted campaign in the media to convince economists and investors that her country is not in the same state as Greece, despite the decision of Standard & Poor's to downgrade its credit rating for the country earlier in the week.

"Frankly, I think the concrete facts do not support this decision (to downgrade the country's rating)," she said in an interview with newspaper Cinco Dias published on Friday. "Our debt is clean, we will not have to ask for help."

The interview follows an article penned by Salgado yesterday for financial news service Bloomberg, whose trading screens have always been popular among derivatives and foreign exchange traders, in which she answered the criticisms of economists and financial analysts who reckon the country's growth forecasts are too optimistic.

"Investors can rest assured that Spain will rise to the challenge. We are devoting all our efforts to putting our fiscal house in order, and at the same time, laying the groundwork for more balanced and sustainable growth," she wrote.

The Spanish public deficit was one of the highest in the euro area last year, at 11.4% of GDP. The government has pledged to reduce the deficit to 3% by 2013 and is due to announce a fresh round of cost savings later today.

In her article, Salgado argued that analysts are underestimating Spain's export potential and discounting a return to consumer spending. Spain's household savings rate is currently running at a record high of over 19% compared with its pre-crisis average of between 11% and 12%.

"This increase is due to two things," Salgado argues. "The need for deleveraging and the need to build precautionary savings. We believe the second ingredient is an important one, and as soon as the economy generates employment, and confidence picks up, the savings rate is going to adjust smoothly to historical levels, allowing both for a decrease in leverage and a stronger recovery of private consumption than others predict."


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  • Tacty Tacty

    30 Apr 2010, 11:09AM

    so called 'greek case' means one thing for sure: dreams about global government are over. we've seen that things cannot be controled in every corner of the planet. in fact, it means that any transnational corporation like the EU has its own limits.

  • Danai Danai

    30 Apr 2010, 11:59AM

    The translation may not be very good. I used Google translator and made some corrections, and I think it can be understood in its basics at least.
    It may not be too relevant, but it might shed some light on why Greeks are in a really desperate condition, and have been for quite some time now...

    "Price surveys conducted by the newspaper "to Chrima" (the Money) in three European countries (Belgium, France, Great Britain) and Greece shows that in several products, especially those of multinational companies -which hold a significant position in the basket of Greek consumers- the price differences, compared to the cost in other countries, are great. For example, children foods by a well-known corporation, the Greeks buy them at a price of 2.86 euros per pack, when the British pay for the same product 1.89 euros (51% cheaper) and France 2.25 euros (27 % cheaper). For the same toothbrush, Greek consumers pay 3.74 euros, the British 2.46 euros (52% cheaper), while for the same package of soft drinks Greeks pay 3.1 euros, Belgians 2.76, French 2.3, and British 2.68 euro. The situation on the market is not new, but given the economic crisis and the reduction on household incomes, the problem is growing, as the Greeks only have 94% of the purchasing power of the European average according to data from Eurostat (which were disclosed in December 2009) and paying more for products than the most affluent of the EU, among them the British, French and Belgians, whose purchasing power is between 110% and 130% of the European average."

  • francisbacon1 francisbacon1

    30 Apr 2010, 12:24PM

    "Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou is due to continue the difficult task of selling the austerity package that must accompany the bailout to angry union leaders and other public officials."
    At the same time mr George Papandreou along with the other ministers in the parliament voted for the approval of the amount of 5.500 euros to be given to EACH minister so they can buy for themselves computers. And what reductions have they done to their salaries?
    This is why people go out in the streets and protest. Personally I agree that there should be a control where the money that is given to Geece goes. But a control on everyone. The problem is that the Monetary Bureau will again put pressure on the people but the ministers and prime ministers and generally the upper class will still manage to steal money from all these loans for themselves. Ah i forgot to mention the church.
    Why doesnt any foreign newspaper talks about all this?

  • Danai Danai

    30 Apr 2010, 12:32PM

    Well said francisbacon1, fully agree.

    Also, what about investigating all politicians' finances for the last 20 years? And those that gained money that they cannot account for, be forced to pay it back?

    Also, any MP that get elected for two 4-year terms (it used to be one, but I think it has changed to two now), is entitled to an approximate 2000+ euro pension. On top of any other pension that the politician may get from any other profession that they may have exercised.

    The church is the richest institution in Greece, but the priests are paid by the state, i.e. the tax-payers' money. Why doesn't anybody talk aout all this?

    I would expect foreign media to say something about all this. Instead, Greeks are being blamed for being lazy, the so-called (non-existent) "welfare state" is attacked, and so on. Compared to the benefits the U.K. citizens are entitled to, the "welfare state" of Greece is simply laughable!

  • NXile NXile

    30 Apr 2010, 12:35PM

    Greece has to go. It should never have been in the Euro in the first place. They shouldn't be ignominiously dumped, but they need to be eased out. Otherwise they'll drag down the entire project.

    And I wonder if that's not what's going on behind the scenes...

  • Eachran Eachran

    30 Apr 2010, 12:38PM

    Perhaps it should be

    "So we lied...."

    I wouldnt want to offend the moderator again and have to go into a long explanation about the differences between office holder and office.

  • Eachran Eachran

    30 Apr 2010, 12:43PM

    The jokes get better the longer this goes on. Madame Salgado must be living on a different planet.

    "as soon as the economy generates employment, and confidence picks up, the savings rate is going to adjust smoothly to historical levels"

    I was thinking the other day (yes I do think sometimes) that the UK France Spain and the rest should follow the medicine that Greece is being asked to swallow. It seems to me the right thing to do from an economic point of view, and more importantly the right thing to do from a solidarity point of view.

  • Peason1 Peason1

    30 Apr 2010, 1:45PM

    Tacty -

    so called 'greek case' means one thing for sure: dreams about global government are over. we've seen that things cannot be controled in every corner of the planet. in fact, it means that any transnational corporation like the EU has its own limits.

    Au contraire, mon brave.

    Greece will end up being run by international finance and faceless, unelected people.

    A test case?

  • anotherpete anotherpete

    30 Apr 2010, 1:47PM

    @NXile

    "Greece has to go. It should never have been in the Euro in the first place. They shouldn't be ignominiously dumped, but they need to be eased out. Otherwise they'll drag down the entire project."

    Yes that's right, at the first sign of trouble cut away all the stragglers. You'll definitely build solidarity like that. Have you noticed the small movements in the EURO over this whole period, despite the hysteria it hasn't collapsed. Maybe in the long run this mess will be good for the whole project as the EU (hopefully) adapts and builds mechanisms to deal with difficult times.

    Yes Greece could of devalued in the past and remained backward and poor for who knows how many more generations. Or it can face the music now, get the whole state in order and someday be a contributor to the EU project. I'd rather they did that then cut them loose at the first sign of trouble.

  • mattjames mattjames

    30 Apr 2010, 2:07PM

    Seems like the Greeks are the whipping boys & girls or Europe right now, but the truth is that this is the big test of the Euro. Its all very well when things are going good, but the real tests come when things are bad, and right now, i dont think europe generally is reacting very well to one of its members struggles.
    Yes there are faults within the greek system, but i wouldnt say any country in Euro land is doing well right now. This was a chance for Europe to come up with a clear agreed plan to get out of a tough spot and they have blown it. In a similar way to the UK political parties failure to understand what a hung parliament might mean for them (lowering personal ambitions for the greater good). Consensus seems to be off message across Europe right now. Lets hope it doesnt spread further or the mess will only get bigger.

  • NXile NXile

    30 Apr 2010, 2:15PM

    AnotherPete- Your argument might be a bit stronger if you acknowledged the fact that Greece lied to get into the Euro in the first place. Come on man, they have been messing about from the very beginning.

    There's no reason the currency union has to cut away all the stragglers. Greece has made some moves in the right direction, like raising the laughably low pension age, but they need to know there will be consequences if they continue to take the piss. If they don't shape up, then yes, they absolutely need to be slid out of the union for the greater good.

    Maybe in the long run the fact that the Euro is not just going to be lubricant for a federal Europe but actually a viable economic system will be even better for the project than the scenario you propose.

    And maybe the fact that we're talking about people's lives and not just figures on a page; gives the immediate a certain relevance? Why should Germans have to pay if the Greeks won't get their house in order? That kind of thing is my only problem with the EU, though it is an epic one. It's no different from all the money that gets ripped out of my pocket so the French can have 150 different kinds of cheese at Le Tesco.

  • anotherpete anotherpete

    30 Apr 2010, 2:32PM

    @ NXile

    So the Greeks lied to get in. Sorry but who didn't know? And just how big was the lie? You know, was it of the scale that was catastrophic for the whole EU? Everyone knew and it didn't matter because rightly or wrongly, they felt Greece in the long run could and would develop anyway.

    It seems they were wrong and Greece needs some bitter medicine. I agree but make no mistake the weakness economically of many EU nations and the lower trading value of the EURO has been very, very good for the German economy. So they have to at least help prop up Greece if only to keep selling their dog-food at them.

    And anyway, this is also partly a political union. If you can't lend a hand (yes a firm one) under these circumstances then when will you? Solidarity is worth far more than money. If the Greek people and doubtless the other PIIGS feel that they only have fair-weather friends then this is far, far worse than the debt problem of today.

    No nation/people/empire stays on top forever. Everyone spends time at the top as well as the bottom. So if there is no help, then don't expect any when you need it. Remember Germany despite its prudence and industrial excellence suffered a recession just like everyone else. If the PIIGS and indeed other nations aren't around to buy their stuff, they are dogsh&t like everyone else. Only with less natural allies.

  • Halo572 Halo572

    30 Apr 2010, 2:38PM

    'Brace yourselfs for the implosion of the superbubble.'

    Depends on who you are. Banks, stock markets or any financial/investment aspect - boom time like never seen before; record profits and bonuses.

    Normal people - likely big impacts to be felt for decades and we will be paying for it for most of our lives.

    This is the difference between those who live in a protected no-matter-what fantasy financial sector world and those who have to deal with the reality they create and force upon the rest of us.

    London leads in house price rises - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10093388.stm

  • Corbo Corbo

    30 Apr 2010, 2:46PM

    Is it just me or is this all a Deja Vu? For months now I seem to have read that The Greeks are now OK with a bail out sorted. Then next week it's crisis again. Week after another bail out on the way, then it's worse than ever and contagious. Now it's OK and sorted again. It's probably all another con for the markets to buy and sell currency and continue their casino speculation. Or is it the press boys drinking again?

  • NXile NXile

    30 Apr 2010, 2:48PM

    @AnotherPete - I'm not saying don't lend a hand. But there have to be limits. Is Germany to subsidise all of Europe? Despite what the German people want? How will building up that sort of resentment further the interests of the European project? France's pisstaking with the CAP has turned me against the EU. Do you think I'm alone?

    Help Greece, a bit, now, fine. But what if the Greek economy doesn't reform? What if the black market continues in its current state? What if Greeks continue to raise hell for their right to retire at 50? Seriously, what do you do if the Greeks don't shape up? This isn't like helping poor people survive, this is like paying your flatmate's part of the mortgage because they spent all their money on booze and nights out. What do you do if they don't change their behaviour? Just shrug your shoulders and throw money at them because otherwise they might not be there to help in some alternate reality 2000 years into the future where they might be in a position to?

    Solidarity is worth more than money...sure. But solidarity is a two-way street. If I help you, you have to respect me enough to sort yourself out and not take advantage. Perhaps I was a little harsh to say the Greeks should be cut loose. But the option needs to be there.

    You can only do so much to help someone. Ask a lifeguard, any lifeguard, what they do if a drowning victim doesn't cooperate with their attempts at rescue.

  • Peter32 Peter32

    30 Apr 2010, 2:57PM

    Thank you to the earlier contributors who have added some information I did not know about the state of play in Greece. It seems to be a general problem in Europe with politicians and honesty and fairness doesn't it?

    I have been looking at the experience of Latvia under an IMF austerity plan on the notayesmanseconomics web blog. If anything like that is repeated with Greece then times will get very hard and I have to question if she will get through it...

    One might mention that it is a surprise to see this subject mentioned in the Guardian as I distinctly remember being told that the problem had been solved and maybe more than once.

  • Hickory Hickory

    30 Apr 2010, 3:12PM

    The greeks are no more corrupt than any other European nation..it is nonsense to stereotype .....why should ordinary citizens of Greece pay for austerity measures mainly grown out of the corruption of much larger , richer and well known figures and names in corporations multinationals,...banks...politics....that is why the mass of ordinary greeks. are angry..it is unfair...and unjust....perhaps we would do well to remember that the main bulk of all these problems started in the USA and UK...deregulation ..the monetarists wet dream...has been...and is ..a disaster for democracy..most of the money for the Goldman "shitty deals" came from Germany...dont tell me Germany is not corrupt either...recently the German Govt backed off from stopping Swiss tax haven abuse...massive non payments of taxes...by some very well known corporate names...who open numbered accounts for ..officials...Swiss banking .and its Swiss Govt.......told Germany...Shut UP..or we will tell the world the names...of all the corporate and elected officials who have secret accounts in Germany....I expect in the same secretive banks that house the names of all the other bent business men and politicians in other European nations...and America...and so on and so forth....
    perhaps thats why so many western politicians are...so quiet about bankers generally
    they all say something needs to be done...and do nothing...
    choosing instead the cowards option...to make orinary people stump up the cash through austerity measures....imagine then what would happen if there were no welfare system...how woud people eat?....would you let them starve?..should we let Greek children starve?...to pay the interest on non existen fiat currency?..would you throw women and children onto the streets in the middle of winter?.....they would die or would you force them to work for ever lower wages untils they can barely afford to live or eat well?better than slavery?
    what do you think would happen then?........I dont need to say .do I?
    If there is anyone that puts the welfare of humanity second to the payment of bankers interest in bonds...then I say they are heartless and cruel....and in the 65 short years since the end of WW2.....which was created from the monstrous condtions of the 1930s...where people starved ....and stole bodies from mortuaries to eat meat......in civilsed countries in Europe...do not judge them they were starving.... where people were so desperate they turned to a monster to lead them....do any of you reading this really want any human being to go through that again anywhere?.........I leave that to your concience

    I am interested to know........
    Which party has banned...is planning to ban derivatives trading................none
    Which party has banned...is planning to ban hedge funds..........................none
    Which party has banned ...is planning to ban tax havens ...like Switzerland
    operating in the UK...............................................................................................none
    Which party has or has plans to jail any corrupt bankers.............................none
    Which party has plans to regulate the banking system................................none
    Which party has plans to change the laws on cartels lobbying Parliament
    ..................................................................................................................................none
    That is why I have chosen not to vote...until I see real change in how the financial fraudsters in banks and massive non tax paying multinational cartels in the UK.are brought to book...I choose not to vote...I will not vote for business as before..I will not vote for more monetarist or laissez faire economics...nice debate....at my old university...nice ties...but I wont vote for more moneatraism...we have had thirty years of it...and its almost busted the world economy...trading levels are already below those of the thirties...we are sitting on the edge...real changes please...or no vote from me..nationalise the banking system end private fractional reserve banking in private hands....they had the bailout ...and are still not lending..I cant vote Tory...Thatcherism....no thanks ...and Clegg?...son of a banker.and an ex lobbyist...no thanks
    Labour needs ..for me..to get a bit more radical and inventive again...until then....happy trails and good luck to all of us

    The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity.? ? US President Abraham Lincoln

  • anotherpete anotherpete

    30 Apr 2010, 3:18PM

    @NXile

    I agree it is a difficult thing to balance how much to help and how long you allow Greece to stew in its own juices for a while to teach them a lesson. I think though you should question the veracity of some of your assumptions. Are you sure they retire at 50 and are raising hell over it? Are you sure they're all living it up? That they all don't pay taxes? If Britain is anything to go by, the very, very rich and the very, very poor are the only ones who don't pay taxes, is this different in Greece?

    I've heard lots of stereotypes about Greeks and Germans in the past few months. About how useless one is and how wonderful the other is. I have no idea how true it all is. Do you? I do know that the money markets have been doing their best to maximize the discomfort and I am easily convinced that there is smear campaign going on to make this crises worse and to justify the tough measures.

    In the end. Greece has been crafty and irresponsible and must change. And Germany has benefited from the debt-driven wealth of the PIIGS which has bought up German exports. It is time to pay the piper. But make no mistake both enemies and friendships/allies are forged in adversity. Which ones are we going to be?

  • NXile NXile

    30 Apr 2010, 4:01PM

    Anotherpete - I do enjoy when reasoned people can come to a common compromise after vigorous yet intelligent discussion. It's one of the reasons I moved out of the US, that sort of thing happens less and less there.

    Following along, I mostly agree with what you are saying, but there are some howlers that Greece needs to sort out. I was wrong, the Greek retirement age isn't 50, it's actually 61, but that's still too low, and don't get me started on the war widows stuff. Anachronistic, sexist, 19th-century nonsense.

    They also spend an unseemly amount on defence. Though I think all countries do, the Greeks stand out, as they spend a higher percentage of their GDP on the military than the United States of America. Completely unjustifiable in the current age and political climate.

    Now I don't think the Germans are any better or more industrious than anyone else, but I do think that it is their money that's in question here. (The ubiquitous inequities of the capitalist system are a separate argument as we all know the bankers won't let you leave the global economic system healthy and intact so we have to take it as they give it to us). The Germans aren't exactly in pristine economic condition and I can see why they are frustrated at having to give money they don't have for a country that could have, should have and if I'm not mistaken, promised to sort out it's problems long ago. That frustration, if prolonged, is as much a danger to the project as Greece's current problems.Resentment is like an iceberg. You only ever see the tip until it's too late.

    Furthermore, while a comprehensive aid package may help the PIIGS in the short term, will the collapse of confidence in the Euro really be in anyone's best interest going forward?

  • Danai Danai

    30 Apr 2010, 4:09PM

    NXile
    "They also spend an unseemly amount on defence. Though I think all countries do, the Greeks stand out, as they spend a higher percentage of their GDP on the military than the United States of America."

    Do you think that the Greek people are happy with this?
    Do you have any idea where this money on defence is spent (the bribes aside)? To give you a clue, France and Germany are among the ones that benefit most.
    Do you know why this unseemly amount on defence? Because supposedly Greece is potentially threatened by Turkey (a NATO ally), and also to prevent illegal immigration, as Greece is the eastern border of the EU.
    Do you honestly NOT see anything fundamentally wrong in all this?

  • MacCosham MacCosham

    30 Apr 2010, 4:14PM

    @NXile:

    Is Germany to subsidise all of Europe?

    Excuse me? Are you intoxicated? Germany is making a decent profit from this deal, borrowing at 3% and lending to Greece at 5%...

    What if Greeks continue to raise hell for their right to retire at 50?

    More Greeks than Germans work after 60:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement#Retirement_in_Specific_Countries

    And incidentally, Greek government per capita debt (25000 euro) is not much higher than German government per capita debt (21000 euro)....

    And no, Greece did not lie to get in.... there was perhaps some opaqueness in translating debt from drachmas to euros, but this changed the debt figure from 108% into 106% at the worst.... it wouldn't have made a difference anyway..

  • Danai Danai

    30 Apr 2010, 4:17PM

    To conclude with my previous post:

    Who do you think benefits by perpetuating this situation? The Greek people? Do you think the Greeks (meaning the society, NOT the politicians of course) have actually a saying on this? Greeks have been complaining and demanding much less to be spent on defense ages ago. This is not news for the Greeks.
    I will let you guess as to who this situation is beneficial for.

  • NXile NXile

    30 Apr 2010, 4:20PM

    Danai -

    Do you honestly NOT see anything fundamentally wrong in all this?

    Yes I absolutely do. Which is why the Greeks need to stop. They shouldn't have done it when they were spending their own money and they should definitely stop now that they're spending the cash of others.

    Not really sure what point you're trying to make. That the Greek government is dysfunctional? Can't disagree with you. But who's responsibility is that dysfunction? Given that Greece is a proud democracy and all?

  • NXile NXile

    30 Apr 2010, 4:27PM

    MacCosham -

    Germany is making a decent profit from this deal, borrowing at 3% and lending to Greece at 5%

    Which is fine, but I think it's the fact that they are being forced to do it, with money they don't actually have, which grates. Maybe they don't want to borrow any money, even if it is at a profit (which assumes that the Greeks, unlike say the Icelanders, decide to pay it back)?

    And no, Greece did not lie to get in.... there was perhaps some opaqueness in translating debt from drachmas to euros, but this changed the debt figure from 108% into 106% at the worst.... it wouldn't have made a difference anyway..

    Perhaps some opaqueness? Really?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-admits-deficit-figures-were-fudged-to-secure-euro-entry-533389.html

    See this is the stuff that upsets people. When one can't even face up to obvious, blatant and proven wrongdoing that happened in the past, the whole hurt bunny routine ceases to play in the peanut gallery.

    As for the rest, see my earlier post.

  • Danai Danai

    30 Apr 2010, 4:28PM

    @NXile

    Your last comment put a smile on my face.
    Yes, the Greek governmentS have been dysfunctional for many years, and Yes, Greek people have their responsibilities, mainly for not revolting and demanding changes earlier.

    BUT what you don't (or don't want to) understand, is that weapon-producing countries, with strong power, have found an easy target. Along with our corrupt politicians, French and German military industry earns A LOT of money. Who do you think would want to stop this? In fact, the contrary is true. In diplomatic circles, Greece often has to sign a specific agreement (for example to buy some aircrafts) so that it gains the diplomatic support of that country. It needs honest politicians with real guts to break this circle, but unfortunately there are none, not in Greece at least.

  • Danai Danai

    30 Apr 2010, 4:35PM

    "Yes I absolutely do. Which is why the Greeks need to stop."

    NXile I suggest we co-operate and start an online petition. When we collect enough signatures, we send a letter to the French and German governments and DEMAND that they DO NOT sell any more military weapons/aircrafts/submarrines etc. to Greece, no matter how much Greece begs to buy them.

    What do you say? Are you with me on this?

  • NXile NXile

    30 Apr 2010, 4:37PM

    Danai - Again, I agree with you. It is a real problem. Can't speak for the French (my Gallophobia is endlessly twigged by the unscrupulous CAP and clouds my judgment on them) but the Germans and the Greeks may find a way out of the cycle, maybe not. But corporate welfare isn't going away, and, to be honest, all countries have it; not all countries have debts that exceed the size of their economy.

    And I'm sure there's a way to gain diplomatic support without heavy arms spending, and if not...well, is diplomatic support the most important thing in the world? If the money doesn't exist, it doesn't exist.

  • Danai Danai

    30 Apr 2010, 4:41PM

    "And I'm sure there's a way to gain diplomatic support without heavy arms spending, and if not...well, is diplomatic support the most important thing in the world? If the money doesn't exist, it doesn't exist."

    NXile I can see that you are a quite clever person.
    Please don't talk to me like you would talk to a politician...
    By explaining some things that are common knowledge among Greeks, doesn't mean that I either like them or support them.
    That is why I added the comment that we would need HONEST politicians with GUTS, but we have none.

  • Gumbo Gumbo

    30 Apr 2010, 4:42PM

    I think one of the more interesting things about this crisis is the potential political fallout from this. Germany has been one of the biggest supporters of European integration for a long time now, and as such it's been taken as a given that they will be willing to bear the biggest share of an increasing European budget. Along with a number of other countries, it seems that people are starting to questions about whether blind continued integration is such a good idea.

    The bail out will come, but at an absolutely fantastic price and with the promise of a lot of pain to come for Greece over many years. I still believe that there will be a default anyway eventually, unless Greece can drastically reduce the size of government, significantly improve tax collection, shrink the black economy and finally get the private sector in Greece growing again. That's a massive task, and it doesn't seem like the general population in Greece have really accepted that this is necessary. Therefore there needs to be a mechanism agreed where they can default and then perhaps choose to leave the Euro if wanted.

  • anotherpete anotherpete

    30 Apr 2010, 5:23PM

    @Gumbo

    "Therefore there needs to be a mechanism agreed where they can default and then perhaps choose to leave the Euro if wanted."

    I appreciate what your saying but the final suggestion really bothers me. The Drachma would be worthless. Trade would not recover anytime soon for Greece because its national currency could not afford oil, raw materials for industry or other essentials like food (Greece has not been self-sufficient for food since since pre-classical times). The only means for Greeks to make any money is to sell of their assets to foreign interests or to shovel sh&t in the tourist trade. Goodbye to any aspirations for countless (not just young Greeks).

    I have had the fortune of traveling and working in several countries and poverty, real poverty is in every way terrible. Only the mad and the wealthy view it as ennobling.

    Leaving the EURO would simply beggar the country. It would also generate bad blood between Greece and the wealthy nations of the EU and make the other poorer nations of the EU less committed to the entire project.

    Greece has to take drastic and painful action to correct its economy/state but it has to do that within the umbrella of the EU.

    I think the EU needs a mechanism that allows internal borrowing, a mini IMF as well as the capacity to determine interest rates. Greece need drastic medicine but not to have the plug pulled.

  • Bacchanalia Bacchanalia

    30 Apr 2010, 5:29PM

    18 months ago I drove across Northern Greece to Turkey. I NEVER ONCE got a till receipt - I wonder why? (and sometimes not even a credit card receipt, and once I was expected to write my PIN number down and hand it to the cashier!)

  • tristamshandy tristamshandy

    30 Apr 2010, 5:34PM

    Can anyone explain what Portugal's and Spain's debt situation was within the last one to five years?? It seems a bit strange that Standard and Poor's ratings drop of those two countries happened very close to each other. Could Spain's situation have been more or less the same, let's say, 3 years ago for a drop in the ratings?? Could S&P have done the same thing six months ago? A year ago?? All this happening at once, with these three countries, is curious.

    Thanks

  • Gumbo Gumbo

    30 Apr 2010, 5:40PM

    tristramshandy, I think all the recent debt downgrades more than anything else are to do with the fact that it's become obvious that the EU is less keen on rolling over and bailing out these countries than it was 6 months or even a couple of weeks ago. Markets have more or less assumed for some time that if anything serious did happen, then governments such as the German/French ones would immediately rally round and support whoever it was in trouble. However Greece has demonstrated that due to public support - or lack of it - politicians have found it much harder to put support packages together, making default a lot likelier than people thought.

  • reallyanavatar reallyanavatar

    30 Apr 2010, 5:46PM

    @anotherpete

    the EU needs a mechanism that allows internal borrowing

    Let's hope they're never lending my money then. Politically motivated intra-EU lending would make matters worse.

    the capacity to determine interest rates

    Governments can lend at any rate they want (if their electorate let them get away with it). Individuals (the bond markets) will lend at commercial rates or not at all. You can't 'wish' for lower rates when you need someone's money.

  • tristamshandy tristamshandy

    30 Apr 2010, 5:49PM

    Gumbo: you did not quite answer my question...Why all at once?? Seems like some kind of set up. I just want read others' responces.

    Also, does anyone know if there has been any mention of taxing companies in Greece any higher? I have only read (and I have read a lot about this, as I live in Bavaria and of course it is an issue here) that the VAT will be hiked, public workers will get shafted in some way, military spending will be cut...but nothing about taxing companies (please, Reader, don't give me the common answer that it is the reagular folk paying for this all. I need some more substance).

    Grüße

  • anotherpete anotherpete

    30 Apr 2010, 6:10PM

    @reallyanavatar

    why do you assume lower interest rates? Greece could borrow at a reasonable rate that made money for the lenders and yet it was done within the EU so it wouldn't be entirely at the mercy of the latest fad thinking of the external market. Isn't this what is happening now? Do you think Germany and the rest are just giving money to Greece and are not going to make any money on interest? The only difference being that this would be institutional and so we wouldn't have the long delays to accommodate national elections and all the posturing that goes with it.

  • publunch publunch

    30 Apr 2010, 6:11PM

    Is it PIGS, PIIGS, PIIGGS or PPIIGGS? (I have heard that Poland and Great Britain have got some swine flu symptoms.) Perhaps it is PPIIIGGSZ if you include Iceland and Zimbabwe.

    What is Sarko doing about this? Is he keeping a low profile and leaving it all to Angela? If so, why?

    Aren't there lots of European countries that would benefit from a bit of QE? Is Germany the only one that is marching in step?

  • jsb1080 jsb1080

    30 Apr 2010, 7:04PM

    I have only read (and I have read a lot about this, as I live in Bavaria and of course it is an issue here) that the VAT will be hiked, public workers will get shafted in some way, military spending will be cut...but nothing about taxing companies

    @tristramshandy
    the new tax bill has just been signed into law. it's 90 octavo double column pages - so don't expect a summary here! But it includes several new rules on bonuses, stock options, transfer pricing, a 40% tax rate on profit distributions (with tax credit), an overhaul of property tax, an abolition of several tax exemptions as well as several rules to tap on undeclared income. none of this would matter, without an overhaul of the irs, to improve its efficiency, but, according to the newspapers, the imf has actually tried to make itself useful on that front (that's a part of their advice that the left should actually welcome!) and they have made a whole series of recommendations, how to reorganize tax inspections and tax collection. these should be implemented within the next months.

  • Gumbo Gumbo

    30 Apr 2010, 8:01PM

    tristram, the thing is that if it suddenly gets less likely that Germany will roll over then that affects the creditworthiness of all borrowers simultaneously - which is why suddenly everyone has started to get twitchy.

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