It depends where you go, surely? Niqab is quite a common sight in Dalston.

If people who don't know they're enslaved want to wear an unwitting symbol of their mental shackles to superstition, I really don't care. To be liberated requires them to make the first effort. However, they cannot be allowed to cover their faces where I'm not allowed to cover mine using a balaclava: banks, driving licence and other ID photos, airports, etc. Anything less is blatant discrimination against the non-superstitious.

"Hey you there, lady! In the niqab? Will you stop moving, I already counted you. Oh no really this is not helping... There. And now please leave that chalk mark on your sleeve or we'll be there all month..."

I think this makes it entirely clear that in modern Europe the burka is not an atavistic hangover, but a very modern gesture of disaffection from and rejection of society, which appeals to a certain kind of extreme temperament.

Every report I read or heard in the French media suggested the same. Of course there are always exceptions.

Niqabs are extremely common in some parts of London.

The total of those European numbers would be exceeded in many wards.

Niqab is also common where I live (none of the above)

Just seen four in M and S cafe and was only in there 15 min's.

As has been mentioned it really depends where you go and also when.

Fifty years ago I bet there were none in towns like Birmingham, Leicester, Gloucester, Bradford, Bristol but are commonplace now.Similarly there are large areas that do not have many now but will have in the future considering the Muslim population is the fastest growing.

I went on a "Peace for Palestine" march and, being interested in photography, took quite a few photos of the crowd. Looking back on the photos I count:
8 Muslim women with no head covering (mostly teenage girls).
3 with hats cos it was cold
38 women with head scarves
3 with face veils showing only the eyes. (though they weren't in burqa dress, just flowing clothes). One of these looks white (but its hard to tell).

I don't know how indicative this is but its probably worth mentioning

Does this justify a ban?

"there were 367 women in France who wore burka or Niqab ? 0.015% of the population"

I assume that percentage refers to the Muslim population...

"I think this makes it entirely clear that in modern Europe the burka is not an atavistic hangover, but a very modern gesture of disaffection from and rejection of society, which appeals to a certain kind of extreme temperament."

For once I absolutely agree with you.

I assume that percentage refers to the Muslim population...

Presumably. Except that figure is unknown too as censuses in France do not encompass religion. No one knows how many Muslims there are in France, not even roughly.

Damntheral
The Pew report gives stats for France as 3.5 million Muslims, which is roughly 6% of the population. It adds the proviso

Data for Germany, France and Bosnia-Herzegovina come primarily from general population surveys, which are less reliable than censuses or large-scale demographic and health surveys for estimating minority-majority ratios (see Methodology). As a result, the percentage of the population that is Muslim in these three countries is rounded to the nearest integer

Kimpatsu

10 Mar 2010, 3:07PM

If people who don't know they're enslaved want to wear an unwitting symbol of their mental shackles to superstition, I really don't care. To be liberated requires them to make the first effort. However, they cannot be allowed to cover their faces where I'm not allowed to cover mine using a balaclava: banks, driving licence and other ID photos, airports, etc. Anything less is blatant discrimination against the non-superstitious.

Yeah, that's fair enough, that's the most reasonable solution to the very minor "problem" of people covering their faces. Could do without the "mental shackles to superstition" stuff though, that's a little bit melodramatic. Enslaved? By headgear? Come on.

Most were young, or at least under forty, and half of them were white converts

Radical Islam is the new "rebel chic" it seems; I'd like to think that reflects simply the earnest stupidity that often accompanies youth (see the Red Brigades/Baader Mienhof gang) and that these women will grow out of it, but it's unlikely.
The Saudi paymasters and sexually insecure male Islamists must be having a field day.

davey23
10 Mar 2010, 4:36PM

Could do without the "mental shackles to superstition" stuff though, that's a little bit melodramatic. Enslaved? By headgear? Come on.

Maybe said melodramatically, but enslavement, in terms of moral philosophy, is what it is, even when unconscious. The woman is buying in to male domination.

The numbers are irrelevant.

Despite the fact that I don't like the burka, it should not be banned, anywhere. The kind of liberal freedom I believe in is only worth anything at all if it can be applied in cases where its adherents (in this case me) disagree.

The other side of the liberal coin is that those who oppose such practices have the right to express their opinon. So here is mine.

Oppression is oppression even if - perhaps especially if - the people who are being oppressed don't know they are. Such as situation is, after all, the most effective form of oppression. The burka is a symbol of the lesser, even un-person, status of women, imposed by the male-dominated hierachy of a religion. (Is there any religion without such a hierachy?) Its transition to a symbol of identity politics doesn't change this analysis at all, in fact its a further example of what I'm saying.

Even so, and despite anything I think, NO ban _anywhere_ please.

It goes without saying, of course, that such garments should be prohibited in situations where they interfere with a person's ability to perform a job role, comprimise security, etc.

I could walk through Southall and count more than that. What methodology was used to count anyway?

I am very much against the banning of anything except where it will harm other people. There is no reason whatsoever to ban the burka/niqqab but those people who choose to wear it must remove it where reasonably required to demonstrate their identity.

I can't see why anyone could have a problem with that. But some extremist would no doubt call it an infringement of their religious freedom. What I don't understand is why anyone who wants that amount of religious freedom doesn't go and live in Iran or Saudi Arabia where such freedom is guaranteed.

I think this article interesting and non pc. I live in Canada and work in public service and sometimes see the burka. Surprisingly old timers will say "oh that's x, and she just converted to Islam."

I agree with the 2nd part of Kimpatsu's post, but not the first. I absolutely oppose living in a democracy while rejecting democracy. I come from an area with a lot of Hutterite colonies; if Muslims want to withdraw like that I don't care, but if you're here you can take off the burka and put on a scarf.

I saw plenty in Rushey Green, Catford near the mosque, an area I left to move to France in 2005.

Now in Egypt, but that's different although despised by many Egyptians as "Arabian".

Styxdweller/Nervosaurus: You have no idea about the motivation for a given individual to wear the burkha, and it's incredibly presumptuous to assume that they must be 'buying in to male oppression', not to mention slightly patronising. Furthermore I don't see how, as adult says, wearing the burkha is rejecting democracy. It strikes me that people are applying all kinds of phrases and symbolism and meanings to what it essentially a piece of clothing.

An interesting survey would be to see whether the people who support the right to wear face masks except where security and public safety concerns overrule it would also the right to go shopping in pyjamas or going for country walks naked except for walking boots, rucksack and sun hat.

My mother wears it, I dislike it. She says she wears it because men do not hassle her. I think she felt vulnerable after my father died about 9 years ago, with local men making 'a move on her' or so she perceived.

Tolerance is a faulty concept, because it is Totalitarian, secularist statists insist that they will only tolerate those who uniquely have the same Tolerance as them, otherwise they will be intolerant. Why exactly this Tolerance is the acceptable tolerance is not clear, except that they insist it is.

its sure true that the proportion of Muslim women actual wearing the burka in Europe is low. But just as there is a tendency toward modest dress in predominant Islamic countries, so its true among muslims in Europe.

Now, I tend to think it reasonable for folks in Islamic countries to expect western folk to dress appropriate while visiting their lands. So Im thinking it should really now be the same in those places of Europe where Islam is strong.

Last time I was in england it real surprised me how the Muslim community has come on well and how geographical concentrated it can be so that some areas are now really strongly Islamic places. So really, it shouldnt just be a question of whether Muslim women should be allowed to wear the Burka. Yeah, maybe its not appropriate in some places I agree. But the same is true for certain western dress in many city and towns in europe. I think folks got to get used to the fact that there is now a new reality on the ground and anglo-saxon and other euro ethnic women really must be made to start covering up more too. This will also help their kids and grandkids better adapt to the more islamic future in store for them.

Who really wears a burka?

Burks?

(Well, somebody had to say it ...)

Just to clarify, the hijab is a headscarf and the niqab is a head scarf and veil.

I think they're both fine.

Despite the furious debate around the question of banning burkas it's actually quite hard to find one in western Europe

Is Preston in Western Europe? You should try driving along New Hall Lane of a morning. The burka-wearers gather in little groups. It seems as weird and alien as seeing people in armour or bikinis.

Scheusslich

Now, I tend to think it reasonable for folks in Islamic countries to expect western folk to dress appropriate while visiting their lands. So Im thinking it should really now be the same in those places of Europe where Islam is strong.

Stir it up mate!

I think folks got to get used to the fact that there is now a new reality on the ground and anglo-saxon and other euro ethnic women really must be made to start covering up more too. This will also help their kids and grandkids better adapt to the more islamic future in store for them.

Troooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooollll

Styxdweller/Nervosaurus: You have no idea about the motivation for a given individual to wear the burkha, and it's incredibly presumptuous to assume that they must be 'buying in to male oppression'

davey23, I'd love to be able to agree with you. It's my deepest instinct to generally dislike the kind of post I made above. But having read many of the views of reform-minded and ex-muslims (i. e. who are now atheists) I can only conclude as I did above.

If the burka were a catholic form of dress then non-belivers would unanimously view it in the way I described above.

It is the noble desire to respect another culture that prevents many non-believers from taking a similar view of an islamic practice. However such cross-cultural respect ceases to be noble when it becomes complicit in the supression of individuals. Especially when those individuals have become part of our supposedly liberal and equal society.

Believers, on the other hand, would no doubt take a different view - You Gotta Have Faith, any faith, sometimes at any cost.

The niqab is deliberately provocative.

Actually the burka is pretty commonplace in Selfridges and Harrods; I have, from time to time, had a dress from the sales rails ripped from my hand without so much as a 'give me that dress or my bodyguard will kill you' from a burka'd shopper.

I'm assuming that Andrew doesn't spend much time hanging out in the women's department, and has no notion of the lengths we will go to in pursuit of a bargain, whether or not we are wearing a burka ...

MancAgainstTheTanks

The demographic speak for themselves. Im no follower of the Eurabia school of thought, but Europe Islamic population is not only growing across age groups but is skewed young. It is also concentrated in specific areas. It is simple logic that folks should be expected to show respect, including dress code, when in these places. I know liberals dont like to hear it but there it is.

I don't think I've ever seen a burqa in London, but I see niqabs all the time.

A message to all females in burqas and niqabs ...

Thank you for not provoking my uncontrollable lust.

Who really wears a burka?

In the West, I'd say it's mainly women who enjoy being stared at. The claim that wearing such freakish garb is an expression of "modesty" is laughable.

The worst aspect of the Burka is that it infantilises men. It places the whole responsibility for men's sexual self-control onto women.

Adam

"An interesting survey would be to see whether the people who support the right to wear face masks except where security and public safety concerns overrule it would also the right to go shopping in pyjamas or going for country walks naked except for walking boots, rucksack and sun hat."

pyjamas - none of my business what women wear but I think it looks slobby. My nan would have been angry if I'd gone to the shops in me jim-jams.
"What's wrong with you?" she would have said.

naked rambler - harmless eccentric, doesn't bother me. Bit of a laugh. My mum would have naturists shot.

Naked men and women in a city context? - no. Wear anything you like including the burka but I really don't want to see your genitals when I'm in W H Smiths.

You are right. 367 women is not a significant number. That said one does have to question the ability of the police, of all people, to arrive at an accurate figure. We all know about the no-go banlieus.

A more telling statistic is that there are supposed to be 500 000 people, mainly children obviously, who are affected by polygamous marriages in France.

Given that polygamy is apparently illegal there, one wonders whether the police have the faintest idea of what is going on, let alone what every Muslim female puts on each day.

And on that note, I will just add that if was a Muslim women (or man) I would keep one of these garments in my wardrobe on standby and not just for those days when I was feeling pious. It would be just the ticket in the event of a bad hair day, acne outbreak, sudden sand storm or invitation to rob a bank.

I certainly wouldn't bother telling the police about it.

Chenier1

"Actually the burka is pretty commonplace in Selfridges and Harrods"

yes - I always associate them with Knightsbridge and as a kid, before 9/11 happened, would see them getting into limos etc.

There was no mass panic in them days but me mum still didn't like 'em

"What are they wearing? Why don't they piss off back to where they came from?" she said.

Don`t the people who wear these garments ever worry that Pacman is going to eat them?

Well I've had a little think about it and I approve of Burka wearing.
Women in Britain are generally far to immodest and spend way to much on fashion and makeup. Why? Just so they can flaunt themselves to other men?
They should think of their husbands and not be so selfish.

Guess you dont get out much Andrew. Take a little time off and have a walk around Hounslow. Or Hayes. You could be forgiven for thinking youd just woke up in Rawalpindi

Thanks to all the people who report so much of it in this country. It is the one place that the Scandinavian research did not cover. I can't say I have gone looking, either. I have seen, once, about fifteen years ago, women in burkas in the Edgeware Road, but assumed they were Saudi. And they had -- at least in my memory, the eye grille that marks a true burka.

Niqab is far from rare in this part of London. And even that is probably as nothing compared to certain towns in the north of the country.

At least you've tried to distinguish niqab from burka though. I've never seen a woman in a burka in my life, other than on TV reports from Afghanistan. The tendency to muddle both up with hijab is particularly annoying, given that I cannot for the life of me see anything remotely problematic with a hijab - its face-covering that I dislike.

"the burka is not an atavistic hangover, but a very modern gesture of disaffection from and rejection of society, which appeals to a certain kind of extreme temperament."

Argh, though here you slide right back to muddling them up again!

Anyway, let's be honest, what you are talking about is attention-seeking, no? Ironically the precise opposite of the 'modesty' that the niqab is supposed to signify. But why would you think this was news to anyone? Its always been pretty obvious this is _one_ of the reasons for wearing these garments (though not all those who wear it in the UK are young, some older women probably wear it because it is genuinely something they have always done).

Banning the niqab is simply un-British and I'd very strongly oppose doing so, but I am never going to like the thing - I find it just plain rude on multiple levels.

If they ever ban it in the UK, I'm going to make it my sole garb from the moment the law comes into force.

Anoother question: would the people who want to ban facemasks worn for religious reasons want to ban them worn for irreligious reasons? Would the people who think they are acceptable if they are worn for religious reasons think they acceptable if they are worn for irreligious reasons?

Well, exactly, postcolonial. If you ban it, all you'll do is provoke an extreme counter-reaction amongst people who start wearing it just because they've been told not to.

Apparently in countries where women are forced to wear these things, they all doll themselves up underneath the niqab, wearing western clothes, make-up etc.

I am fairly sure that Andrew is right, though, and that women who choose to wear them in this country are mostly doing so to make some kind of political point. And of course to gain some kind of moral oneupmanship - "I"m much too modest to let men see what I really look like", with the implication that if they were to wear ordinary dress, they would be constantly subjected to sexual harassment.

@Adamstor: "Anoother question: would the people who want to ban facemasks worn for religious reasons want to ban them worn for irreligious reasons? Would the people who think they are acceptable if they are worn for religious reasons think they acceptable if they are worn for irreligious reasons?"

Interesting question. I think a lot of people feel very uncomfortable with the idea of a face mask per se - why is this person choosing to hide their face? What are they up to? That's why some shopping centres have banned hoodies. Choosing to cover up your face suggests, at the very least, that you are up to no good, if not actually of criminal intent.