Postcript to the Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight
The political careers of Geoff Hoon and Patricia Hewitt were over before they mounted their cack-handed and abortive coup. Now they're history. But their coup-that-never-was will have one lasting legacy between now and the election: the incredibly grudging, half-hearted endorsements of Gordon Brown from his Cabinet.
I won't repeat the quotes here -- you've probably seen them all already -- but there were all variations on the theme of "I'm just getting on with the job" and "I like Geoff and Patricia but don't agree with them" or "it's not really a problem."The closest we got to a ringing endorsement in terms of "Gordon's doing a great job and is the best man to lead us into the next election" was from Ed Balls -- and when the PM can't get it from him then he really will be finished.
The Cabinet's delayed and lukewarm support for Mr Brown in the face of the attempted Hoon-Hewitt coup will be its lasting legacy -- and the Tories will almost certainly exploit it by claiming that if even the Cabinet doesn't really want the PM, why should you, the voter. That will put the pressure on Cabinet ministers to become more enthusiastic about their leader. We should be in for some interesting performances.
On a different note, let me bring you one piece of good news. The economy: the latest monthly purchasing managers' index's strong reading shows the service sector expanding at a decent rate again. That means that the overall economy must have grown in the fourth quarter and that the recession ended. What happens now is another matter -- the current quarter could well be weak, which would cause Mr Brown's re-election strategy some problems.
But for now we can safely say that, technically, the worst recession in living memory ended in the fourth quarter of 2009. That doesn't mean, of course, that in the real world people will still be hurt.
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That doesn't mean, of course, that in the real world people will still be hurt.
Pardon?
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Oh please Andrew do not start the Will Hutton, the Labour stooge economists optimistic line, it was bad enough you having him on the programme.
If the service sector had not grown in the fourth quarter after all the stimulus thrown at it, we may as well all have thrown ourselves down the nearest mountain. I would have expected the growth to be stronger to be honest.
The question to be asked is where to we go now. With higher taxes on the horizon, the last fiscal tool quantitative easing stopping, VAT going up etc etc. The deficit to deal with and increased numbers coming out of work. Where now, since all Browns smoke and mirror policies are all used up.
All I need now is for you to invite that other master of spin Kevin Maquire on your show, putting a positive angle on the Brown plot to make my week complete.
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Hoon and Hewitt's political careers were dead long before this so they were the fall-guys set up by something or someone else. What I know not? There is a massive disaffection within the Labour voting electorate and I think Hoon and Hewitt were reacting far too late to that issue.
The time to unload Gordon and seek a government of National Unity to save the Labour Party from extinction was last year: now it is too late as it is apparent that the bitter-enders are in control and they will be happy to go down to a glorious defeat.
With regard to your comment about the ending of the recession I agree this is a technical matter which will get the economists excited. However, I do not think that Christmas shopping should be confused with economic growth. The continued malaise of sterling within the global currency framework is the more significant factor and this brings as much sorrow as it does joy. The recession might be technically over but our economic problems remain structural, very manifest and will eventually enforce massive changes within our country. We need to ensure that those changes are all for the good.
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I entirely agree agree with some of the comments already made but I still and will continue supporting not only the Labour Party but our Great Leader P M Gordon Brown because the Man is made from True Grit our Nick-Name for the our Great Leader.
It should be Noted being a leader you cannot allow your-self to have friends instead have your enemies close to you infact even closer standing RIGHT beside you when you think about it this is exactly what our Great Leader has done - which goes to show P M Gordon Brown in a sense has the last Laugh.
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Happy New Year Andrew
Well once again the Parliamentary Labour Party shows itself to be a bunch of spineless ditherers incapable of putting the interests of the nation before the party.
Clearly Brown is incredibly unpopular in the country and this will help lead the party to a heavy defeat at the General Election. No matter what the result of the election, hung Parliament or Tory win, the loss of a huge number of MPs will traumatize the party and lead to Brown going one way or the other.
Inevitably this will lead to infighting within the party and most probably keep them out of power for a long period of time as happened in the 80's and 90's.
Fully deserved as well as far as I am concerned.
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Message 4 margo
If Gordon Brown is true grit then can he come a spread himself about on the roads around here.
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Andrew,
this is more like the hole in the wall gang. Or at the end of the wonderful fil 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid' where the two go out of the building to be shot down in a fusilade of bullets, only Brown is on his own, he will lead but nobody is going to follow.
to listen to Brown on his Radio Solent interview, was just wonderful, you really can't make it up.
Who will lead labour after the election?
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Andrew,
imagine Brown as the Captain on a ship. The ship is sinking, it could however be saved by anybody other than the Captain. The Captain however will never relinquish the Captaincy, he would rather all the women and children, as well the crew, go down rather than do the right thing. There really must be a March election. We haven't even hit an iceberg! It's just a tad cold.
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Polly Toynbee's view on the failed Hoon-Hewitt coup sounded convincing. Those two experienced ex-ministers must have sounded out their colleagues beforehand and received assurances of support. As Toynbee said, the promised support didn't emerge as the relevant cabinet ministers got cold feet when the chips were down. Back benchers were waiting for a lead that didn't materialise.
Brown lives to fight another day, probably knowing that he is surrounded by enemies waiting for someone else to make the first move. Purnell took the chance and ended up out in the cold.
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Andrew
I admire your optimism but out in the world of industry there are few blue skies just gathering clouds.
These are the worst trading conditions of my working life - the situation would be far worse if so many people were not on short time.
The responsible companies who value their workforce are doing their best to keep people on but unless things improve rapidly permanent cuts will have to be made.
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Well that was a good start for the new celtic alliance, and no mention of football
Not so sure about the wardrobe choice, but anyone who can get NuLiebour Polly to be quiet has my thumbs up
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The biggest surprise was that Mr Brown, sorry True Grit, did not set up a committee on the coup to report after the election.
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It's surprising that some unimaginative acolyte has labelled Brown as True Grit. It opens up so many avenues for speculation.
Is it the True Grit that makes you hop around in pain if it finds its way into your shoe? Or, worse, the fine True Grit that makes your eyes water until it's removed? Or the kind of True Grit that is most appropriately found in cats' litter boxes or on the bottoms of bird cages?
We've already had Legover Clegg - I wonder what's in store for Cameron. You can't do much with just 'Call me Dave'.
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Good afternoon each & Andrew.
True Grit?
All I know is that if I were to meet with someone called Lofty I would not be looking out for a tall guy.
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Hoon's political career may now be in the twilight zone but I await his attendance at the Chilcot Enquiry with perhaps more relish than I did before . . . a man with obviously an axe to grind, I suspect the former Defence Secretary, as the keeper of the bones in the closet, will be more than delighted to furnish the truth about how Gordon Brown underfunded the MOD and did not, above all else, properly fund the troops going into battlle for the British Nation so that they were equipped to perform the tasks they were assigned by the Labour Government.
One suspects that Hoon will do now for Brown exactly what Brown did for Blair.
I always liked Geoff Hoon, I think I am going to like him even more soon! ;o)
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Re;13
One wonders mike-jay if the accolyte you referred to added one too many r's into the words "True Grit."
It was interesting to hear David Millband say that Gordon Brown will be leading Labour "into the next election."
It was also interesting to note that he said nothing about Brown leading Labour much beyond that. Do you think it was a deliberate ommission?
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http://mpexpensesconsultation.org.uk/
MP's expenses consultation
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#16 sa
Whoever wins the coming election, I can't see Brown surviving much beyond if the Westminster whispers are anything to go by.
But Miliband? Did he miss his best chance when Purnell walked out? Could Harriet or Balls or Burnham slip past him on the inside?
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Andrew,
I wonder if somebody could help with 'True Grit'. Was it the John Wayne movie, where he was wearing a patch because he had a duff eye, because in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
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17 Stronghold_barricades
You gave the MPs expenses link but you didnt give any the detail my friend. It aint just a report it is our chance to say what we think until 11th Feb.
This could be fun, whether it will make one iota of difference is another matter altogether.
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Re:18
I think you are right mike-jay. As to the Millibands if Labour think by making either one of them Leader they will win back core voters like me they are seriously barking up the wrong tree.
Harman (ditto)
Johnson (ditto)
Burnham (was a fan till the expenses not so sure now)
Straw (dont make me laugh)
Balls and Cooper (not in a month of Sundays)
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#17 Stronghold_barricades
Yes, some 'fun'. It does seem to be for amusement only.
Decent enough suggestions each with the loopholes tagged-on at the end.
Set up because of public unease, they say. Not any mention of untrammelled dishonesty on the part of all concerned.
And. Just who are they? I guess I should have looked them up? And at what cost?
So much 'consultation' is nothing but eye-wash. I saw nothing to say this will be any different.
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@20 &22
My apologies
I was unaware how much of the beeb censor would allow through so it was a bit of an experiment, and I did think that the url for MP Expenses Consultation was a bit of a give away. You'll note that I didn't put it on Nick's blog because he'd think it was off topic
Whilst I also feel my contribution might be drowned by the weighting of the consultation, I thought I should look at the proposals
They do allow you to reject them wholesale...page by page, and give your reasons
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Current cabinet - bunch of spineless numpties. Rather keep warm down in the bunker than do any work? Perhaps checking their expenses?
I am starting to think that we could end up with worse of all results at the election.
Labour - largest party, Tories good gains but not enough and even with lib dems support still without a majority. Then we have the mix of MP expenses - I can see Bercow not making it back. Of course, we could have events could blown the whole thing of course with the ice berg hitting the ship.
Wondering if the Tories were wrong not to go with David Davies?
Should we not applaud the abilities of Lord PM who said he expcted another leadership challenge after Christmas.
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In the real world, people wil most certainly continue to hurt. The problem is that when the statistics show the recession has ended, Politicians and Business leaders will give themselves a pat on the back and they won't give a damn about anybody else. They will just insulate themselves from reality as they have always done...
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Andrew,
we all know how some are enduring a very difficult time during this weather, sorry severe weather!
Now I hope that this is not a storm in a teacup but Brown looked very relaxed when he went to studios to record his comments.
With Mandelson by his side they both looked very warm and comfortable. maybe if he endured the same travel arrangements as us mere mortals he might have been less relaxed. He doesn't get it! I think that with hindsight others will see it as his crisis, what crisis moment!
The infrastructure of this once great country is busted, just as finacially we are busted, we seriously are, then there is a crisis which can only be resolved by a general election. It seriously cannot go on like this.
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There's no salt left, no grit and little gas. Sounds like the government to me.
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good Morning Andrew,
I think that we all know where some of the problems are emanating from in this government, Balls.
Well this morning news is breaking about the severe weather causing problems for the young students taking examinations next week. What is Balls going to do about it! Surely there must be an urgent ministerial statement about this important matter.
Let us see if Balls really is the man who will have the support of ministers to take the required action. Rather than arguing amongst themselves the government should be addressing this crisis. It is a crisis as well because we must not fail our children, they have learning differences according to Balls, so let him show how he can adapt the system so that these children are not, nor their parents, seriously effected by the severe weather we are all suffering.
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Andrew,
heard that Hilary Benn fellow on the Today programme this morning. Interesting.
Last year after the last crisis over gritting I attended a meeting of Devon County Council. At that meeting they asserted that they had had more than enough salt for their own needs and that they had 'sold' some of their surplus to other councils who were in desperate need.
If my memory serves me well they did not disclose if they sold their allocation at a profit, although by the smiles amongst the finance people I would think that they did. I think councils ought to be asked if they have been selling their salt, leaving themselves short and unable to solve local problems. We can already see the excuses being made for an increase in our council tax, unprecedented calls on our finances, nobody could have expected these severe weather conditions!
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Andrew,
you seriously cannot make it up. Look at my #26 of yesterday. Now I live in Exeter, Devon, snow bound England and there is a wonderful story revealed in our local newspaper, the Express & Echo, this morning and it is:
'PRIME Minister Gordon Brown has been criticised for calling off an historic meeting of his Cabinet in Exeter because of the weather.
Mr Brown was due to visit the city to hold a full Cabinet meeting this afternoon.
Months of planning have gone into the visit and the Prime Minister was due to carry out a range of functions, including meeting a panel of Echo readers.
Senior government ministers including Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Ed Miliband and Secretary Of State for Defence Bob Ainsworth, were also due to make high-profile visits to locations in the city.
The Echo was made aware of the plans weeks ago but was not able to release details for security reasons'.
Now I am getting seriously worried that your blog is read by some pretty knowledgeable and influential people. I can see the snowman effigies of Brown already. The man is amazing, he would seem to be caught in a Catch22 situation. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
I mean he can get to Afghanistan, but Exeter, oh no. Much too difficult. So, what is he going to be doing today, watching for another coup. As for his Minister for Culture, Media and Sport, our local MP Ben Bradshaw, who so supports the PM, well interesting days.
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#2 Susan-Croft: You have identified a very important point, Susan - the likelihood of poorer figures for the first quarter of this year, which would, of course, be available before a May election. To me that suggests that the Government will go to the country at the end of March, before reality scuppers their over-optimistic figures.
#7 Catch22: You suggest a change of leadership for the Labour Party after the election. This does, of course, imply that Mr Brown will 'do the honourable thing' (like Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock) and step down before he is pushed. A moot point, though - who will be left of the current potential contenders? It would be interesting to see which of them have seats 'at risk' with leads which give the Tories (say) a majority of 5, 10, or 20 seats. Does anyone have the appropriate figures?
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Andrew
Responsibility.
Why does nobody take responsibility for their actions? I tried to do my skills tests in Yeovil yesterday. Now we had had relatively little snow and I drove up from Dorset some 20 miles with no problems. Now the centre of Yeovil was icy but I managed to park up and get to the test centre. But no, only 1 member of staff had made it in and so none of the tests were going ahead. Just great! Of course it is the fault of nobody - it is the severe weather. Poppycock.
So now we are being asked to vote for a PM who had ended boom and bust. Who steered the economy brilliantly in the good times and even better in the bad. No, they were not his mistakes. It is a global recession silly. Funny that he is responsibly for the good stuff - surely that was global financial growth.
But the bankers, well they must not be rewarded for failure. They must be responsible for the bad as well as the good. No to bonuses. But weren't they hit by an unforeseeable event? The GLOBAL recession. Seems as though there is 1 rule for 1 and 1 rule for another.
And good old Joe Public. Well it is a GLOBAL problem so stump up. Oh, and if you were silly enough to make hay whilst the sun shined then you will be rewarded by bailing out every other Tom, Dick and Harry.
I say do not reward failure. Take responsbility. Do not vote for True Grit.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
#31(b) Charentals
Seats at risk? Feast your eyes on this...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/flash_map/html/map05.stm
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#31
The trouble is that there will be no alternative to having Lord Mandelson! The Millibands are whiping themselves out, Ed was meant to visit Exeter with Brown and Ainsworth, but can't make it. As for the Foreign Secretary, well forget that he has been shown up as not Brutus. Nobody has the guts to do the deed. We are doomed, abandon hope all you who enter here, this seriously cannot go on like this.
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Andrew,
there is a new relaxed Brown, with his great jokes, and timing of delivery, it really is a transformation. He is the great leader we all knew was there. Fantastic. I will vote for him as Prime Minister, oh that's right I can't. I can't vote for the leader, we don't have a president. My aprtner just cracked a joke, it isn't Gay Gordon, it's May Gordon, only it should be March, a march to victory, news from the bunker.
We cannot go on like this. Wait we haven't had a death in Afghanistan this week, if I was serving in that country I would be very careful, send out a search party, we have to have at least one a week so that Brown can be solemn, before his jokes!
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#2
I am fed up with this line that Labour have got it right on the economy. Maybe they have but the point is there is no way of telling.
To me they have pumped in lots of our money to engineer growth (or stop decline). The question is whether this is like bump starting a car when the battery has gone flat, or switching the bilge pumps to maximum when the ship is sinking. What happens when this stops? Are we still holed or do we drive off into the sunset?
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#33 Thanks for that link, Tom! Think I'll take the lap-top down to the Bar-Resto and work through the figures - get some other ex-pats to help over a glass (or three) of Bordeaux!
Looks to me, at first glance, that Brown is the safest of the lot! Grim thought?
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"I entirely agree agree with some of the comments already made but I still and will continue supporting not only the Labour Party but our Great Leader P M Gordon Brown because the Man is made from True Grit our Nick-Name for the our Great Leader."
sorry, your spellchecker appears to be on the blink, you've put in a "gr" where you should have an "sh".
Please re-run the spell-checker and re-submit.
Spammer.
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#36
nobody knows what would have happened. It is the same with Brown we have saved 100,000 jobs, or 500,000 jobs, he knows this how. Is that what people are doing as a job, looking at how many jobs have been saved.
Interesting that the temperature somewhere fell to -21.6 degrees centigrade, so exact, not 21 degrees, or 22 degrees, but 21.6, very scientific.
I have made some calculations about the losses to the economy during this severe cold weather. I think we have lost £352,739,456.91 from the economy on a daily basis. My calculations are of course secret, but they are correct, they must be they are very correct, to the penny. By the way what is the temperature in imperial. You remember those days before centigrade, something called farenheit, sounds German to me.
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Andrew,
what on eareth is going on. This morning I gave an extract from my local paper saying that Brown had cancelled a cabinet meeting which was going to be held down here in Exeter. I am now watching the BBC News 24 and there are pictures of Brown holding a cabinet meeting in Downing Street, the first one after the failed coup.
What a way to run a country. Was there going to be a cabinet meeting in Exeter? Who was going to attend it? People seem to be in total chaos and confusion, Brown has totally lost control, how on earth are people meant to be able to do their job if they are fire fighting all the time. Chaos, absolute total chaos! Get a grip as I used to say, just get a grip!
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Andrew,
23 January 1947 House of Commons debate, reported in Hansard:
'The hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Janner) began by suggesting that this Order would allow a fair share for all. I think that the country is getting rather tired of this "fair share for all" cry in respect of commodities and goods which are becoming constantly in shorter supply. The hon. Member then appealed to patriotism, but I do not quite know how he worked that in, and he finished his speech by advocating fair cuts for all. I think the Government's new motto is not "A fair share for all," but "Fair cuts for all." There is some doubt, in regard to this Order, whether the cuts are fair, because it has been made abundantly clear from this side of the House that the industries and businesses which have effected economies are those which are to be penalised. It has Been the same all along since the Government came into power. The people who have saved have been those who have suffered. As time goes on, and as our supplies of fuel get less and less and the quality become worse and worse, it will not be easy for the people who are affected by an Order of this sort, which entails a reduction in consumption of per cent If the quality of the coal is bad and it has a higher ash content. those people will be in a very awkward position, and the result may be that they will exceed the 97½ per cent of the quantity which has been fixed in their operations for the four-weeks' periods mentioned in the Order'.
Now I know that this is rather a long extract but I think that it captures exactly the current appalling situation now developing. Brown must really get a grip, in more ways than one. I mean Harman has today pleaded guilty to careless driving, whereas earlier she gave the impression that she was not guilty. As for using her mobile phone, and leaving the scene of an accident. What sort of people have we got in government! Mind you she has also got to pay the victim surcharge, we are the victims , where is my money Harriet?
One comment deserves particular emphasis 'It is the people who have saved who have suffered', as it was in 1947, so it is today. The road to serfdom.
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...you all may remember the opening words of a popular TV show from long ago...
"My name is Harry Worth, I don't know why, but there it is."
Well, I do not know quite why, but I am back to my 'chipper' old self.
To mark this momentous occasion I share with you the 'news' that I have plumped for a tune to accompany my VFO4OM campaign. It is The Roses of Success, from Chitty-Chitty Bang Bang. With the imortal refrain...
"From the ashes of destruction grow the roses of success."
Happy humming.
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You have it so wrong Catch22
If it hadn't been for Gordon the temperature WOULD have been -50 degrees centigrade.
If it hadn't been for Gordon we'd be a fundametal Islamic stste with daily bombings on our streets.
If it hadn't been for Gordon we'd be experiencing desert conditions and all be nomadic camel herders.
If it hadn't been for Gordon we wouldn't have won the Ashes.
I'm ashamed of you. How can you ignore such an illustrious record of triumph after triumph ? He's Napoleon, Gandhi and Abraham Lincon rolled into one with a touch of Winston Churchill and King Ludwig II for good measure.
He won't be forgotten as quickly as he'll be dispatched from office and think of all those illusory claims we'll miss out on. Hype will never be the same.
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#43 Gomer - Only a TOUCH of mad King Ludwig?!!
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Andrew,
in your discussion last night on Hoon and Hewitt, may I suggest that you ignored the fact that Hoon will have to give evidence to Chilcot. That will be most interesting!
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Andrew,
I notice that my earlier posting mentioning Harman has been removed. Taking into account the reports now emanating with regard to her court case I can well understand why. I think that it was most interesting that certain charges had been withdrawn, thus enabling her to plead guilty to the charge, and not having to plead on the remaining accusation.
A most interesting example of justice in this country. However, why has she had to pay the victim surcharge, surely there were no victims? What is this victim surcharge?
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Good Morning Andrew, and moderators,
you know that I like Hansard, and I thought that I would be slightly controversial recalling a House of Commons debate from 1947, without any reference to any current politicians. it is an illuminating extract and well worth reading what with the science debate on climate change:
Weather Forecasts HC Deb 19 March 1947 vol 435 cc398-9 398
§ 39. Mr. Gammans asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will give an explanation of the incorrect weather forecasts given by his Department during the recent cold spell.
§ Mr. P. Noel-Baker To my regret I must admit that the science of meteorology still leaves much to be desired. During the recent cold weather, however, the Meteorological Office issued about 2,000 weather forecasts for the different regions of the British Isles and of the surrounding seas, and many thousands to the crews of British and other aircraft, and I am advised that the vast majority of them were correct. I am placing copies of these recent forecasts, and of the subsequent weather reports, in the Library of the House. If the hon. Member finds among them any to which he takes particular objection, perhaps he will put down a further Question.
§ Mr. Gammans Is the Secretary of State aware that the Air Ministry predicted two thaws which did not come off, and that once they predicted rain and fog, which, fortunately, did not arrive? Will he try to improve the reliability of his forecasts, in view of the great inconvenience this country has suffered from the unreliable forecasts of the Minister of Fuel and Power?
§ Mr. Noel-Baker I am aware that, as someone said, one "thawcast was a frost." I am also aware that many people tend to confuse the science and the practitioners of the science. The science is imperfect, but I think our practitioners in the very difficult conditions of the British Isles really do remarkably well.
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Andrew,
So we have returned to the "back me or sack me" strategy of John Major. We all know what happened there.
It should be obvious to everyone that at the beginning of a year when there has to be an election, no-one of any note in the Labour Party are going to support a leadership contest.
Talk about "Turkeys voting for an early Christmas".
There is one thing though that the British electorate will take note of and that is that they do not generally vote for parties who are conducting internal fights. This political coup will only reinforce the general public's belief that the Labour government has lost the support of its own members. That will be disasterous come voting day.
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46. At 11:22am on 08 Jan 2010, Catch22 wrote:
Andrew,
I notice that my earlier posting mentioning Harman has been removed. Taking into account the reports now emanating with regard to her court case I can well understand why. I think that it was most interesting that certain charges had been withdrawn, thus enabling her to plead guilty to the charge, and not having to plead on the remaining accusation.
A most interesting example of justice in this country. However, why has she had to pay the victim surcharge, surely there were no victims? What is this victim surcharge?
=========================================
The victim surcharge of GBP 15 was originally brought in for serious crimes only. This year it has been introduced for minor offences such as speeding etc.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/6922883/Motoring-fines-to-rise-by-15-for-Victims-Surcharge.html
Essentailly it is a stealth tax as you quite rightly point out who is the victim? But if a victim did exist after admin costs etc how much money would ever find its way to a victim? Hmm..
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I had to laugh at Mr Livingstone having a go a Tory policy to means test child benefit. Why aren't Labour proposing this? Sounds fair enough to me. Politics seems very muddled at the moment. A Labour govn. pouring billions of state money into private companies? New schools build with private finance?
It is going to be a long few months of negative campaigning from what I can see. They are already bashing each other even though I have not the faintest what either of them stand for.
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Andrew,
after the cabinet meeting the BBC News is carrying the following comment from Lord Mandelson:
"The idea that the prime minister thinks you can just turn on some policies for this group or those policies for another - that's not how government works. It's not how policies develop, and it's certainly not how elections are won, as we will show you when the time comes."
Now it is no wonder that few cabinet ministers came out and supported Brown immediately becomes obvious when you read Peters comments, priceless. Who by the way is the 'we' who will show you when the time comes. Mandelson does not have to stand for election, he is another totally unelected member of the government, so much for democracy. Mandelson for the leader of the labour party after the election?
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#50
How interesting that they should have Livinstone on the Daily Politics after my comments and his taking over running the GLC after the election where Cutler was head of the labour group at the time of the election. Somebody really should ask some testing questions of these politicians! For how long does Livingstone and others thi k that Brown will be leader of the labour party after the election. Some of us have not forgotten about party funding and loans to political parties, nor cash for honours.
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Andrew,
brilliant news. I have just gone to the Number 10 website and have been connected through that to the statement made by Brown about our investment, in an age of aspirations, to green technology:
'Our plan is for Britain to be a world leader in a £4 trillion global market for low carbon environmental goods and services, a market which offers us the prospect of 400,000 new jobs by 2015.
And let us be clear. This investment is a choice.
A choice between an age of aspiration - a coming decade of renewed and sustainable growth and a philosophy grounded in optimism: the belief that even the toughest problems can be solved.
Or an age of austerity - a lost decade of retrenchment, and a philosophy grounded in defeatism, cuts, retreat and decline.
And our choice is clear. To invest now in the infrastructure, enterprise, knowledge and people that will secure our future prosperity'.
Now all I ask is that people look at the circumstances surrounding the building of the Humber Bridge. All this money being spent, will it be part of the debts our children and grandchildren, and even great grandchildren will be paying off? I mean why stick at £4 trillion, why not £5,6, or even 7 trillion, the man just has a total lack of ambition. No aspirations at all!
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I was a bit confused when turning on the Daily Politics today- we seemed to be getting a party political broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party - Jo Coburn didn't interrupt or question Livingston or the Mirror man.By the way where does the BBC keep Livingston when he's not being wheeled out to talk garbage? Is he in a cupboard? He always seems to be available and I've honestly seen enough of him to last for some time.
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First we had the Life of Brian and the Crack Judean suicide squad.
Now we have the Life of Brown and the Crack Labour suicide squad.
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49 excellentcatblogger
As I posted in the other place , (which has closed after about 2 hrs and 39 comments !),whilst I detest her I think she got a hefty fine for a no damage parking nudge but as someone pointed out to my other post the plea deal involving withdrawing the other roll up charges meant she didnt hit the 12 point disqualification magic number.
Just make sure you ask for a similar deal if you find yourself in similar unfortunate circs.
The victim surcharge, yes, another tax, even going on parking fines soon I read.
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Doesn't this pathetic coup show just how miserably incompetent its two conspirators have always been?
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#59 Derek Duncan.
Party Politics imortalised as a pantomime horse?
Now we know who plays back-end.
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58 Derek Duncan
I am not sure we will ever know the truth relating to H&H's text.
Its wording was very clever and could mean either drop him or support him.
The delayed and lukewarm support from nearly all ministers was interesting.
The secret ballot bit was of course esential. It reminded me of an open vote by show of hands when the boss was putting forward a change to working practices. I was the only speaker against and come the show of hands the only other voter with me was a chap leaving at the end of the week.
But both show how someone with no future interest in the place can be a spoiler. Wonder if this will encourage any others who are not standing or hoping for enoblement?
Of cours if H&H get enobled then we know it was a fix.
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#60 xT
Fix?
Do you mean, (and I intend this in a good way), that some are enobled by merit?
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...this is interesting, this enoblement lark.
How, in the (our) bright new future that I envisage. How could one 'reward'; a scraficial-lamb, a sword faller-onner etc. with no 'House of Lords'?
Is this the real reason for our present second chamber?
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...and finally.
Why a cut in road salting until Tuesday? Here we are again with the bean counters with their heads in their books and not on reality.
Surely the priority is to be ready for what Sunday night might bring, to make things easier at the start of the week?
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Hello Andrew , and all at the Daily Politics
For the amount of times our great Leader P M Gordon Brown has been targeted and Not turned his back on the Labour Party in my mind and I am sure other like-minded people may feel the same way its because has the ability to show Leadership Courage braveness and bravery with determination endurance nerve patience and fearlessness this is what it takes to have True Grit are you able to Name any Politician who can match our Great Leaders Credentials?
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64 margo
????????????????????????
You are having a laugh aren't you? Want to wind us all up.
If not then prepare for a knock on your door when Gordon wants several million doses of whatever you are on to inject the rest of us . You could become a filthy rich Tory voting capitalist on the back of this
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Dear Andrew,
everybody is missing the point. Blair will soon be giving his evidence to Chilcot, Straw will as well, as will Hoon. Brown will not be giving his evidence until after the election, as Chilcot confirmed before Christmas. It is Chilcot which is fundamental to what has been going on. It was, and is Iraq, this is all about the disaster which is Iraq. It is not only about the war on Iraq, it is about the occupation, and the funding.
Anything which Hoon now says has the possibility that it will be seen as the evidence of a bitter and failed politician. As Hutton stated in his February comments to the House of Commons, previous holders of his post had inadvertently misled parliament over extra-ordinary rendition, enhanced interrogation techniques, and British army detentions. There is more to this than meets the eye, trust me Andrew, this coup has still got legs. There will be a March election.
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Andrew,
I hope you will allow me to add to earlier posts regarding the upcoming Chilcot Inquiry and certain Ministers who will have to appear to give evidence, in public, before the general election:
'Most shattering of all, it now looks as if Tony Blair's Government sunk into the moral abyss and collaborated with torture of prisoners.
Again and again ministers - including Tony Blair, former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw and former Home Secretary Charles Clarke - have passionately denied all knowledge or involvement in this filthy and illegal practice. Yet, repeatedly, the allegations have resurfaced.
Finally, on Thursday, came the crucial moment in this tawdry affair. Defence Secretary John Hutton addressed the House of Commons and, at last, apologised for his senior colleagues' misleading statements.
John Hutton is a decent man and deserves credit for eventually acknowledging the deeply shameful fact that Britain was directly involved in so- called ' extraordinary rendition' (during which terror suspects are stripped of legal protection and taken for questioning to a country where torture is condoned).
The Hutton confession was forced out as a result of allegations made by Ben Griffin, a former SAS officer who fought in Iraq, who claimed that British soldiers routinely handed captives to U.S. forces in the knowledge that they would be tortured'.
Now those were the words of Peter Oborne who wrote the above as part of an article on the 1st march 2009, and printed in the Daily Mail.
Now when any of the ministers give their evidence to Chilcot then there testimony must be reviewed in the light of, not the invasion, but what happened next. I consider that it is totally unacceptable that the inquiry will not listen to Brown's evidence until after the election, especially with the announcement around the new year of the American non prosecution of the Blackwater operatives who will not be prosecuted over allegations of the deaths of so many Iraqis.
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67,68 Catch22
Please do not take my response as in any way flippant as all the matters you raise are more than important. If you check my ramblings you will see that I have many times asked what is happening to Taliban prisoners.
I fear a real scandal there.
The idea that thos responsible should suffer sanction is I am afraid summed up by the late and loved Tony Banks who I was priveliged to hear one day give a very loud aside on, I think the subject of parliamentary pensions, "whats the point of having power if you can't abuse it?". I know roughly when so I must check Hansard to see if they publish asides to replies, a great shame if they dont.
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Hi Andrew, and all at the Daily Politics
The Labour Party with our Great Leader P M Gordon Brown at the Helm will win the next Election because True Grrrit will ensure any terms used in his aims and objectives are defined and understood by all.
Where as the other Parties will continue taking risk's by using the same old Ambiguity and Errors.
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Good Morning Andrew,
I listened to the inetrview this morning on the Today with Michael Portillo. It was another eye opener. His analysis was spot on, people will have long memories.
Just as people will remember the way in which Brown 'took' power from Blair, so others have their own memories. As some will know I have just obtained my Honours degree with the Open University, having studied Politics, Philosophy and Economics (PPE). Now my point there really should have been another 'P' in all this, Psychology. Without Psychology nothing makes any sense.
Brown I believe is psychologically flawed, it is not as Widdicombe might have said 'there is something of the night' about him, it is something which I can't put my hand on. Something happened to him earleir in life, and I don't mean the loss of the sight in one eye, there has been something which I can't put my finger on.
I thought it interesting when Marr asked Brown about his medication that it somehow struck a chord.
For example, take Churchill and the disclosures after his death about the history of sexually transmitted diseases in his family, was it his father who had syphilis? None of this was known about whilst Churchill was in power, yet it must have had an effect on him. Same with me, I did not know that my father was conceived out of wedlock, in 1914 a difficult situation to say the least, it must have had an effect on him, becaise he never told any of us that he was brought up by extended family members, as happens down here in Devon to this day.
What I am saying is that few people have an understanding of what drives us, what has made us what we are, and I will keep searching, for as is said in a TV programme of a few years ago, 'the truth is out there'.
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Andrew,
as you know Brown was meant to be down here in Devon yesterday, he cancelled the long planned visit at the last minute.
Now I hope that others saw the media reports last night on the visit by Brown to some Old Peoples Home, explaining about the elderly, and what they can claim during this inclement weather situation.
Now, he held a cabinet meeting in London in the morning, which had been pre-arranged, and he had been in Hampshire the previous day. I think that the only reason why Brown did not leave London yesterday was so that another coup could not be engineered. How many times have we seen coups in foreign countries taking place whilst the leader was out of the capital.
My serious problem is what was he doing having a 'cabinet' meeting down here in Exeter in the first place, when he must already have organised a cabinet meeting in London in the morning. What would have been the point.
It was not going to be a full cabinet, probably a visit to the Met Office, bit for the military with Bob Ainsworth, and the foundation hospital thrown in. Yet you can see his advisers advising him not to go near the Met Office whilst they are in such disarray over, not only the severe weather, but also the failure of Copenhagen, and climate change. England never has had a climate, it is always weather.
Your interview earlier in the week with the Head of the Met Office, with mentions of his bonus, and recent events. It is all about manipulation. Brown shows True Grit, but he must never be caught slipping on the iced up streets, unlike us mere mortals. It would be his Kinnock on the beach moment, embarrassing. The problem is that in the film True Grit does not the hero wear an eye patch, why does Brown not wear a patch over his eye, how is it that he doesn't need glasses. Could we not see Brown with a patch over his good eye, with telescope raised to his bad eye looking for coups, I see no coups! It is not the new Gay Gordon, with his laughs and 'jokes' it is Nelson Brown I want to 'see'.
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Good Morning Andrew...maybe H&H should be given greater credit...from todays Darling interview in the Times it looks like GB and his stupid class warfare and investment versus cuts strategy is dead in the water. Due to the dynamic duos intervention the next election could be fought on cuts versus cuts...
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Andrew
Given the dire situation with salt/grit supplies around the country and councils told to cut usage by a quarter, can we expect something similar in Downing Street. The street I live on has not been gritted at all, yet outside No. 10 it was pristine: street and pavement cleared of all snow and ice. Another case of do as I say, not do as I do.
The comments made in the Times about southern councils not receiving grit/salt as shipments have been diverted to northern ones are a shocker. They are implying that Central Gov are behind this. The imported salt is due at the end of this monthbut I guess will take another week to distribute - wonder which port the ships will dock at...
I liked your grilling of the head of the Met Office. Until this freeze is over I humbly suggest you interview him on a weekly basis about the poor forecasting. On the internet several forecasters do the 16 day predictions and others more long term, yet the Met remains resolutely steadfast and plumps for the 5 day forecast. It is a poor effort for the large amount of money that the taxpayer is shelling out - how much are we shelling out compared to say 2000, 1990 and 1980 say? How much has the head of the Met Office salary risen in the same period?
My own prediction for the Home Counties is either:
Thaw starts in 10 days - the same as 1978/79
or it is a copy of 1963 and it could go on till end Feb/early March.
And catch22 is right the Met Office has been politicised. Their "mission statement" needs an extensive re-write.
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Hey what about this Irish thing? ... Kirk McCambley looks just like Dustin Hoffman, doesn't he?
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@75
Wonder who has got the Katherine Ross role?
@64 Margo
You have cheered me up immensely - though not necessarily for the right reasons.
You are either having a hoot winding everyone up or are an eternal optimist - either way keep up the good work, we need a laugh.
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75.
First Hewitt looks like Jagger, now the toyboy looks like Rainman.
A visit to specsavers is needed, methinks.
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Labour just don't make sense any more, not that I particularly care or even pay much attention.
Not so long ago their 'party line' was that nothing was being cut and that they were investing in everything. Now, I credit myself with some degree of political sophistication, and never believed a word of it, but isn't there still some belief that politicians should tell the truth ?
The impression is that Gordon is as credible as a Cold War Soviet leader and will gladly boast of our well being no matter the real state of affairs. Looking beyond what he says, the recognition that things are so bad that he has to admit it, really fills me with dread, but that merely reinforces the notion that Gordon is someone without any credibility.
Without credibility, why does he bother ? We know who the winners have been under Gordon's reign, and his willingness to deal with the financial industry in the most tender manner is in stark contrast to the bluntness of his new approach to services. To me he's just a Tory wearing a Socialist coat.
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Catch 22 - Re: 19
Sorry, I missed it early, but there is a rather good HG Wells story using that comment about a one eyed man is king in the land of the blind. Where the blind people organised themselves to know there surroundings, what do when threatened by an outside foe as in the story.
Re: 72
I think Brown's bottling of the missed 2007 election was when I think his 'flaws' showed. He could have won with albeit a smaller majority, finished off a young DC and Tories in the wilderness again. Plus given sometime to brain wash us will its all a global/US cause. Also given himself a stronger position. On the other hand wasn't it Jack Straw who persuade him not to go and isn't he allegdely the same one plotting over Christmas. Perphas we can have a public enquiry as how he has survived for so long? He must know where the bodies are?
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@ 77 ... Okay, suppose he doesn't really. And she's no Mrs Brooks either. But I'm sticking with the Hewitt/Jagger link up - that's spooky that one. Anyway, next thing is Blair Campbell in the dock, isn't it? I'm looking forward to that. Probably be a letdown though, as these "big matches" often are.
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Message for Catch22
You may-be something in what you say about our the Psychological mind of our Great Leader P M Gordon Brown D-O-B 20 February 1951
In your statement you say there is something of the night about P M Gordon Brown it is something you just can't put your hand on.
Our Great Leader birth sign is Pisces born under the sign of the Moon there are basically two types of Pisces - those that go against the tide and those that go where it takes them.
The former types remain on the look-out for the right opportunity, struggle against the world to utilize its full potential and triumph over life.
The latter types remain tangled in their dreams may not notice even when opporunity knocks at the door and may miss the bright sun-light of success.
A piscean Man needs to develop the personality traits of resolute judgement and unwavering actions to realize his ambitions and be a winner.
A Piscean Man will never hold a bias against anyone. You will never find him passing a judgement in context of anyone, unless and until he has experienced the same situation in which that person is now in. Even then will try to understand that person's reasons rather than critize them.
Accusations also don't go down well with him either. A Pisces Man is never ever mean however he may say something which turns out to be quite different from what he intended. He is totally dependable and you can trust him with your darkest secrets.
He is a good listener and people always come to him to discuss all their Major or Minor problems. A Pisces man will never remain angry for a very long time and will seldom hold a grudge. He has the ability to see right through people,s outer layer and that makes it very difficult to fool him. On the other hand he can fool you if he wants and such situations will arise frequently since he likes to keep his own affairs to him-self.
David Cameron born 9 October 1966 under the star sign of Libra.
The Libra Man have a good critical faculty and are able to stand back and look impartially at matters which call for an impartial judgement to be made on them But they do not tolerate argument from anyone who challenges their opinions, for once they have reached a conclusion, its truth seems to them self-evident; and amongst their faults there is an impatience of criticism and a greed for approval. But their characters are on the whole are on the whole balance, diplomatic and even tempered.
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#81 Margo:
Twaddle!
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81.
Margo, sounds like you've got your signs mixed up. Libra fits Brown perfectly:
"But they do not tolerate argument from anyone who challenges their opinions, for once they have reached a conclusion, its truth seems to them self-evident; and amongst their faults there is an impatience of criticism and a greed for approval."
It's all a load of old cod anyway, starsigns. But keep the pro-Brown posts coming, he needs all the support he can get.
80. Saga
I think Ali C. will put up his usual belligerent defence, stonewalling the civil servants. Pity there are no trained lawyers on the inquiry.
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#81
I am an Aries man, as many would have surmised. As for me I was conceived almost on the day of the birth of the NHS, being born on the 7th April 1949. Accordingly, I missed the great freeze of 1947, but not the one of 1963, when plymouth Argyle managed to be one of the few clubs to be able to play their matches without any health and safety worries.
Why did Brown cancel his visit to Exeter, which was meant to take place yesterday.
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Andrew,
I think that I may be able to answer my own question about Brown visiting Exeter, where the local MP is Ben Bradshaw, the labour minister for Culture, Media, and Sport.
Locals have been conjecturing on the reasons why Brown should come here in the first place. Let me say that it is generally known the labour party is, shall we say, stretched financially, as well as other ways.
Now Brown has organised a number of out of town cabinet meetings. Now, all the costs of these important, no most important, cabinet meetings are met by the taxpayer, at approximately £100,000 a time!
Now I think that with the Darling dossier, which no doubt we also paid for, on the conservative spending 'plans', should be costed, who did the work, how many hours, or days, weeks, have civil servants spent on the 'dodgy dossier'. This government is imploding, it really is time for an election, March please.
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I hear on R4 that we have officials saying that this weather "was not predicted"
Any chance we can get al jebeeba to give a greater exposure to your own findings here on this blog, and your challenges of the Met Office supremo?
What I really don't understand is how al jebeeba caption readers can then accept these responses without actually challenging them. I'm at a loss to understand journalistic integrity, and intelligence at al jebeeba..or the system that actually allows it to happen
No reward for failure
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Andrew,
I think that it is well worth listening to the Today programme this morning when they were running an interview on the scouts and their camp.
They had a government minister in on the interview and I think it is well worth while people listening to the interview. The minister made some, what I regard as slimey, comment about maybe the scouts should be out and about 'helping' people. The response from the scout master put him in his place. Maybe government ministers ought to be out there shovelling salt, rather than using scarce resources on publicity stunt visits to Old Peoples Homes.
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75. At 10:40am on 09 Jan 2010, sagamix wrote:
Hey what about this Irish thing? ... Kirk McCambley looks just like Dustin Hoffman, doesn't he?
Go away you annoying thing. Your comments stink worse than a blocked drain in the high heat of summer.
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blame @ 83
Campbell is an intimidating individual. Very driven, a touch unbalanced ... he's our very own Bob Haldeman. Perhaps he'll end up in the same place.
hate @ 88
What, don't you have an interest in politics? ... Patricia Hewitt does look like Mick Jagger. Definitely she does.
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What I think upsets so many people now, is that our Government of the once great Country called Britain has descended into farce. The Government almost looks like a ship taking too long to sink after all the passengers and crew have jumped ship days before and left the deluded captain behind.
This latest plot to unseat Brown was so comical that it would be an extremely funny joke if it was not for how serious the financial situation of Britain really is.
We now know what the deal was to keep Brown in place. It is so obvious by Darlings declaration today, that the cuts in the public sector will be the worst for 20 years (an understatement really) this was the deal that was struck. Brown must face reality was the deal, otherwise the Markets would pull the plug, the voters would then know how dire our situation really is. Labour would be in a much worse position if that is possible. Brown must stop taking advice from the dreadful Balls will be the other part of the deal. Darling and Mandelson will now take over that role.
The only real support Brown has left in the Britain is from the voters who have been bought by Labour over their 12 years in power and the core vote who would vote Labour no matter what. He does not even have the support of his own cabinet. So what of the man himself, it seems no matter how much embarrassment is heaped on Brown, nothing will unseat him. Do we really have another 4 months or so of this people may ask, it seems so, as there appears to be no intention of an election until the very last minute. Will the voters vote Conservative instead of Labour is the question or will many just stay at home.
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Freedom of speech is great, but reading most of these comments leads me to an uncomfortable conclusion, lots of people, across many age groups have grown up with & still have what I call the 'school yard' philosophy and just can't help forming petty gangs to pick on people. Most people don't like Gordon because that’s how he's portrayed by the media, (which is itself no more than a self appointed gang of people with its own agenda) so the average person, not wanting to be ostracized by their social group goes along with it. Truth? I doubt most people would recognize it within their isolated social view; as a species we've over reached our grasp, the environment, economy and even social structure groan under the weight of those who've forgotten how to contribute, live sustainably, take care of themselves & their world, instead they just go on grabbing as many 'sweeties' from the 'jar' as possible for their own self serving purpose, then irrationally pointing the blame for today’s ailments at those who can do no more than damage limitation, while everyone hurtles toward oblivion because of the behaviour of the many, not the few. Gordon Brown is a great man, and I believe will be remember by history as such, unlike Blair and his sycophantic following, what’s worse is that some of the people making negative comments here, will then say "well I always liked him" because it'll be fashionable to say it by then, changing their opinions faster than the weather. The English habit of berating the good, then idolizing & romanticising about the past is irksome and tiresome, peoples memories are short, our world has never been more exciting and full of opportunity for personal growth, or for that matter appeared more apocalyptic, the planet is managed badly on the whole, so who would we replace Gordon with in this grand whole scheme? Sir Ferguson? Spot the Cat? I urge people to ignore the petty naysayers (who've probably still got at least one hand dipping in and out of the 'jar')! have faith, because who ever we choose to lead our country is inheriting the problems we've caused by our behaviour, so it's likely they'll all gang up on him/her anyway if they challenge us to change, if they don't challenge us, then they're there for their own reasons and selfish short term gain and we'll be headed into even more trouble. I'd like to see Gordon Brown continue because I'd rather have someone in charge whose been able to take all of that bullying and still stand proudly and hold to his values, than someone whom we don't even know if they have values or not!!!!
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So the Government has now taken over the responsibility of deciding which Councils do and do not receive grit for the roads. I said to someone that no doubt in that case most of the grit would end up in the hands of the Councils in Labour voting areas. I suspect this is what will occur. Labour are so obvious in everything they do.
If there had not been such a belief in the forecast of a mild Winter to suit the climate change agenda by Government, Britain may have been better prepared for this cold spell.
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Catch22 you say you are an Aries Man puts you under the sign of the Ram then perhaps you should know :
An Aries Man is full of suprises and excitement and hates monotony and dullness in life. Consistency is something that does not gel well with his characteristics profile.
Don't ever be rude to an Aries Man, he will be very hurt and turn into the coldest person on this Planet to gain their respect you will have to start from scratch again, to get back the confort level you once shared.
Aries are highly energetic and always full of creative ideas an Aries guy will always remain young at heart even when he reaches 90 years old.
Aries Man is generous in the matters of time and money is full of compassion and trys to cheer the people around him but just like a baby, he can get irritated, inconsiderate and difficult when his needs are not met or delayed for to long.
The Aries Man loves challenges he likes to lead and can reach great hights in their careers but their down-falls are being extremely possessive and exceedingly jealous wants to be trusted but will not do the same for others and to succeed needs to learn the virtures like humility and modesty.
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91 Isil
Is that you Margo ?
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Sagamix 89
The blog World is starting to look like a very funny place lately don't you think?
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Apparently there has been an allegation on BBC2 Conspiracy Files that in 2001 the UK paid an Afghan warlord $2m during an operation against Osama bin Laden.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8448825.stm
Unsurprisingly the UK-backed warlord, Haji Zaman Gamsurek, went on to agree a ceasefire with al-Qaeda.
The Foreign Office have said that they don't comment on intelligence matters. I'd have said that this demonstrates a decided lack of intelligence, and doesn't therefore qualify.
From a Pakistan website 2003/4
"He fled the country )Afghanistan) three years back after being accused of helping Osama bin Ladin in his escape from Afghanistan."
I strongly suspect that the West is congenitally stupid and no match for Afghan intellect. The longer we stay there the richer the Taliban and al_Qaeda become. It would be bad enough, though not surprising, to learn that funds handled by the Afghan government are going into anti Western hands, but when Western governments are doing it themselves, we are funding both sides of the conflict. Madness.
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to 94 xTunbridge
Errrr? NO! lol, I am most certainly myself thank you, I think Margo maybe on the wrong website, this being a discussion on current affairs not astrology ... an interesting angle none the less! :)
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91. Isil
One can dismantle your argument bit by bit...for starters, "school yard philosophy", "petty gangs" picking on people... that's pretty much how Campbell/McBride and the crazy gang operated isn't it? And Brown has his own record of political bullying, not one concocted by the press either.
"Most people don't like Gordon because that’s how he's portrayed by the media."
Not sure what that sentence means but I'd guess that many people don't like Gordon because they've been taxed to the hilt and see very little to show for it.
We still have some of our civil liberties left, a free press is one of them, the expenses saga proved that, although I suspect you'd rather that hadn't come out... didn't show your idol in a great light. Fortunately he wasn't alone on that one.
You are right on one point, the general public's spending binge hasn't helped our situation, but then people do tend to be influenced by those who lead them.
There aren't any attractive options waiting to step into Brown's shoes, but personally I prefer not to reward failure.
Keep posting, it's healthy to hear all shades of opinion.
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96. GomerPyle
GP, I think the Afghanistan campaign will end up in the annals as one of the worst conceived, managed and executed political and military campaigns in modern history. At least Iraq, although lacking a post invasion strategy, had its 'shock and awe', 'knock 'em over as quickly as possible' tactics. This one is failing on every level.
Beggars belief that after so many failed foreign incursions the West still manages to get it wrong. Arrogance and ignorance in equal measure.
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~91 Isil
"Freedom of Speech is great ...."
I'm speechless - where have you been! Or perhaps you haven't been in this country for long?
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For xTunbridge
It may-be me but thank-goodness its not
you see I am Gifted and Talented individual and just like our Great Leader P M Gordon Brown True Grit use my Talent and Skills for those groups in more need than my-self.
I am very proud of all my achievements which I have learned from our Great Leader True Grit who will continue to Lead the Labour Party into the next General Election.
Our Prime Minister Gordon Brown's good name has been allowed to be Blackened by weak minded folk if they took the time to scrape away their Blackened minds instead would able to see our Great Leader has a Heart of Gold and a Champion in the world of Politics and its an honour for me that in this world we live in to day under much contrite regretful; remorseful; sorrowful occurances I have a free mind to use my vote which will be used on P M Gordon Brown.
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#96
I think that what was interesting was that last year, as well as preventing a close family member of mine of speaking through the MoD taking out an injunction, there was also an injunction taken out preventing the press from reporting on the prosecution of six members the SAS.
What has been going on is that some forces have been taking out loads of cash to be distributed, but some has 'disappeared' before reaching their target. People really should keep up with the Baha Mousa inquiry, the Chilcot inquiry should be given copies of all the papers to see what really went on after the war.
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#98 TheBlameGame
"We still have some of our civil liberties left, a free press is one of them...."
Where's it hiding exactly? All I can see is biased media outlets directed by their respective editor/owners agenda.
I suppose it depends on your definition of a free press, however I personally don't think the current crop provide an impartial and balanced view of the facts in the majority of cases, to the point where one media outlets story is repeated ad nauseum without ever checking the veracity of the particular story. It's amazing what even a little digging can uncover behind some articles.
Until the standard of journalism improves I don't feel that we do have a free press in the UK, rather propaganda pushed onto the masses by the few in power, which the majority will neither have the will or inclination to verify but rather accept wholeheartedly.
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For all those undecided voters out there this is your moment and time to really make use of your vote and having comments such as all the Political Parties are the same is unrealistic and a foolish idea instead what you are afraid is your neighbours MY what will think of me?
what kind of SCAREDY CAT are you ? HOUSE CAT! ALLEY CAT! COPY CAT! CATERPILLAR! or a CATASTROPHE.
Go on get of the Fence and when the Election comes around be happy in the thought you have 9 Lives do the decent thing and Get out and VOTE.
He Who Dares Wins
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#103 Scott in notts , here here! what we have are 1/2 dozen people who decide the agenda- usually their own. oh and of course we have the public service provider who blatantly break their own rules on a regular basis.
they have allowed themselves to get into a position where the government of the day has a very large hold on what they do and what they say. at this point in time they are extremely concerned that the next government will cut their funding unless they play ball whilst still trying to serve the other lot thru the dying days of this Parliament. If they had stayed impartial like they are supposed to it wouldn't be a problem but they didn't.
Sid
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To TheBlameGame
In relation to you not knowing what it means most people not liking Gordon Brown because this is how he is protrayed by the media?
Answern to your question:
5/5/2009 The Economist partly owned by the Financial Times wrote an article that when he first took over as Prime Minister Gordon Brown, could do no wrong in the eyes of the media.
Then P M Gordon Brown decided against an Autumn Election and was immediately labelled a Dither, hardly fit for any high office and several other similar statements which has led to the P M being made a target.
I hope this information is helpful.
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101 Margo
You are priceless - you are definitely my new favourite!
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103. ScotInNotts
As you say, ScotNot, its what you define as a free press. I believe we still have a free press, i.e. they're not censored by the government, just by legislation on privacy, libel, etc. but agree with you that the general quality often leaves a lot to be desired. Private media ownership with political agendas is a fact of life pretty much throughout democracies. The balance shifts every once in a while but at least all the major parties are represented. I'd like to see the smaller parties given more publicity but that's unlikely to happen.
What is encouraging is that the internet now keeps the media groups on their toes.
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@90 Susan
If Brown wanted to emerge with some integrity he would start tackling the real issues, his inability to face up to the issues will cost us dear in the long term.
Major accepted he would lose the election and he and Clarke got on with the business of sorting the economy although they got little credit for it.
I still have not worked out the reasons for the abortive coup last week but it has not particularly harmed Brown.
.....and with regards to your 95 some of the usual suspects are starting to look relatively sane compared to the new intake. Takes all sorts, I'm all for diversity.
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106.
I thought that's where you were heading...
Willie Haig has never lived his baseball cap down, Cameron will always be an Eton 'toff', Gordon has dithered on several things.. it's the way politics and the press is. Live with it.
Ultimately they are judged on their record in office.
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To meninwhitecoats
thanks , and if I am able to be of any further help let me know?
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#108
I would agree with you about a free press except for two examples:
an injunction against a close family member of mine because the government did not like what was said about extra-ordinary rendition and enhanced interrogation techniques,
the silence of the British press over Harry in Afghanistan, the we do bad things to bad people, and the killing of the Afghans based on intelligence, and the fact that it was from an air strike
If you like there are other examples, but I do not consider that we have a free press, what I would say is that Andrew has some of the best moderators, and some of the best contributors, and I am confident that there are an awful lot of influential people who think the same.
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Hi Margo, can you do a Leo please? ... the Lion.
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111 Margo
I like you so much you can borrow my coat if you want - it has secure straps around the back for safety
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Just watched the Daily Politics interview with Red Ken who is faithfully following the 'Brown Line' about spending. According to Ken if you cut spending 'too soon', we will be pushed back into recession.
Says who? This is some barmy theory that you can spend your way out of debt, or borrow your way out of recession. We are already in a deep financial crisis, largely caused by an economy built like a house of cards with nothing to support it. The level of debt we have now will stifle recovery for decades to come.
Most people with common sense (this excludes Gordon and Ken obviously) understand that when you have run out of money, you have to CUT spending, not increase it. Spending money that you haven't go, or printing money as we are doing (so-called QE) is the last act of desperation, more reminiscent of Zimbabwe than a responsible democracy.
Brown's policies are so obviously wrong, it does begin to look like deliberate sabotage to make things even more difficult for the next government after the General Election. The scorched earth policy....
Brown's ability to predict economic growth is even less good than his ability to predict the weather.
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112. Catch22
Thanks for pulling me up on that one.
The all pervasive 'security threat' is the one thing which is threatening a free press as it already does our own liberties. Without downgrading the potential dangers from 'terrorists' this can be a convenient stick with which to beat the public.
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Susan @ 95
Mmm. Still, I annoy myself a lot of the time. Like this evening, for example ... I'm getting on my own nerves big time this evening. And there's very little I can do about it. Can't just walk away.
What's the blog topic anyway? Ah yes, the attempted Jagger/Hoon "coup". Not much more to say about it, is there? The Labour Party (unlike the Tories) have no great ability to remove their Leader when he doesn't want to go ... don't think they've ever done it ... and if there's one single thing that everyone, of whatever persuasion, can agree is true about Gordon, it's that he does not not NOT want to go.
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111.
Margo, do you read tea leaves or tarot cards?
Any predictions on the election?
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For sagamix
The Zodiac sign of the Leo has the symbol of the Lion and just like a Lion believes they rule everyone Don't tell them it doesn't because it will break their Big Loving Proud Heart.
Leo's can go from being vigourously out going to plain lazy, they like to live in style and hates boredom. There are hardly any introvert Leos only those who pretend they are introverts.
The Leo is pretty clever and will never ever bother to waste their energy on something insignificant Leo holds back nothing , not
even their approval or their compliments, infact Leos are so generous with their compliments that they can make you embarrassed and self-conscious. At the same time,is equally vocal about the things they do not like.
Leos have a for-giving nature and is full of sympathy Leos are passionate
in every aspect of life be it love or career or any other thing.
Leo is never the one to be dependent on someone. Rather, they love to lead and be leaned upon and dislikes taking help , especially of a financial nature.
The Leo is a powerful enemy,but one with morals, who fiercely defends what they believe to be theirs. Creativity and Originality are Leos Fortes, even though has a ego is arrogant over-flows with pride but are extremely good at heart.
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For meninwhitecoats
Thanks for the offer, but best served for you to keep your own coat with its secure straps around the back it should just about fit your Hunchback style remarks - wear it with pride.
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For TheBlameGame
Yes, I can predict the out-come of the Election but , do you really want me to tell you?
Let me know
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Margo
You are our first Mystic [I believe] - we have a running wager on the election date
Dates suggested so far are May 6th, June 3rd any thoughts?
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121. margo
"Yes, I can predict the out-come of the Election but , do you really want me to tell you?"
Nah, you'll spoil it for the others.
119. margo
Leo
"can go from being vigourously out going to plain lazy"
"There are hardly any introvert Leos only those who pretend they are introverts."
Covers all the bases... told you it was a load of old tosh.
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Thanks Margo (119) that's Me to a Tee
... in my dreams.
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For meninwhitecoats
Someone is playing games at our Great Leader P M Gordon Brown's Expence and needs to face his worst fears have the courage to dispose of this Traitor who sits in the Cabinet this Person has reached a Crossroad and in the near future will Need to change direction.
Once this person is removed a New Seed of Life in our Great Leaders Political World will start Blossoming and Justice will be served to our Great Leader by way of P M Gordon Brown will now reap in what he has previously sown and as one door closes another will open.
Hope and Optimism are in store and with Justice being served has the chance to see through the Election an announcement will bring about a magical solution.
Wait for the above to come to pass then I will able to tell you what you need to know.
P M
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#125
Martial Law declared?
I half-suspected it would come to this.
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Margo
Thanks for that, I retire to slumber happy in the knowledge that optimism is not dead even it is misplaced.
Sleep Tight.
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Never visited this blog before, however it was suggested I post the following as an indication of how the BBC report politics in Scotland:
Around the time of the SNP conference the Daily Politics show, a London based programme hosted by Anita Anand and Andrew Neil, carried an item based around the SNP and their proposed independence referendum.
A film crew had been despatched from London and their subsequent broadcast featured an interview with a 'typical' Glasgow businessman - owner of a scaffolding firm. The businessman claimed that Scotland was subsidised by England and could not afford independence.
Well, as well as being a well known supporter of the Union (he appears on a BBC list of prominent Unionist businessmen) this gentleman had also donated around £3500 to Andy Kerr's Labour leadership campaign. [Andy Kerr is a Labour MSP at Holyrood]
Kerr also accepted a trip and hospitality to the Glasgow Rangers Eufa cup final in Manchester (estimated value around £1500) from the same businessman.
One would have thought that such a balanced and non-partisan organisation like the BBC would have made this known to watching viewers.
They didn't
This isn't an isolated incident - the BBC are held in contempt by many in Scotland.
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I do have a suspicion that if Gordon left the room, the Cabinet would all be of one mind margo.
Your support for Gordon borders on, or even lurches into, the realms of obsessive. I can't say that I have the same degree of afinity for any politician, even the one who may have the benefit of my vote. Most of them have something of the polecat about them and, with regard to Gordon, I'm content to find your comments amusing.
His successful 'morphing' of the Labour Party into an even more 'banker friendly' version of the Tory Party makes me wonder some days whether I may have passed into an alternate reality, but with Gordon's latest gear change into financial proberty, policy appears to be decided by coin toss or purely for cynical electioneering.
Two weeks ago, or less, the economy was in recovery and unemployment was decreasing, and Gordon's vision of the future was one that usually takes me a good few malts to achieve. In one smart move Gordon has frozen the weather and economy more effectively than the wicked witch from Cinderella. Someone's convinced Gordon that the electorate will notice the different between his vision and reality before voting day, and so we must fall in line with the new story.
Gordon's propensity for avoiding reality is such that we must be in a real mess for him to actually own up to it. I suppose that there had to be a time delay between hosing all our money into the troughs of banks, and then admitting that we're bust, and the peasants are paying the tab. It's often been said proudly that Gordon won't follow populist policies, which is evidenced by his unerring desire to reward the few.
If there's one thing Gordon isn't short of it's media men to spread the word. Sorry to say, he's not got brand appeal and the forecast is bad, in all respects. Even the weather is against him.
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Online ED
They have their problems south of the border as well but generally I have found AN to be fairly impartial
PS.. is Electric Hermit still going strong on Brian's Blether?
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100 Japabytes
Ummm *strokes chin...thinks rhetorically for a few moments* umm?
Does that mean you feel you don't have a voice? Or that freedom of speech is too much of a great thing & has been abused? Or even just a statement meant to provoke a reaction from me to see if I'm a righty? lol, or possibly you think I'm a loony naive foreigner living a daydream? I wasn't too sure due to the ambiguous nature of the statement, but to answer the question, "where have you been! Or perhaps you haven't been in this country for long"?; Well, I've been here for a while or so exploring my consciousness, generally observing human nature and our unique self expression, but I don't think where we come from is particularly relevant to the value of an opinion, it's just a main driver for how its formed in early life, what’s more important is that as adults we can choose to change our perspective based on accurate evidence & a good dose of common sense based on a more holistic view of history, rather than just a 10 year time capsule ... which leads me nicely in to something else.....
98 TheBlameGame
"I'd guess that many people don't like Gordon because they've been taxed to the hilt and see very little to show for it".
......I found that a very interesting statement because as I mentioned, people have short memories, blaming the current leaders is thinking within the time capsule, just to allude to a couple of other factors; The baby boomers? The pension gap? Population increase? Longer life spans? A demand and expectation from us for a higher quality of lifestyle, the list goes on ... to say the current economic state is based purely on the last 10 years of decisions is merely a tool used by those not in power for their own political leverage ... a more fundamental truth would be that our very way of life is in crisis because we've ambled along never thinking beyond the next 4-5 years and we, as individuals & as a nation have to begin to act more responsibly and think in a radically different way if we want to make things better, simply flipping from one political party to another in the hope that one day they'll sort it all out for us is no more than a cycle of the "Blame Game" (lol, just slightly ironic ;) which will lead us all no where …. & I don't idolize anyone; I just try to define the truth of any given scenario ... except maybe my mum? lol, after all, she's the one that raised me to question things, taught me to be a nonconformist without seeking to destroy conformity & helped release me from the bonds of post modernism dogma that would have me be a slave without a future on a dying planet :)
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saga & Coats
You tarts, I will tell Croftie.
I quite like the zany newcomers who balance the deep meaningful.
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Good freezing morning Andrew,
I note from the early morning news that a company is transferring its salt deliveries from Germany to Britain, to solve the 'crisis' which is enveloping the country. This surely is a classic example of the government, that is Brown, solving a crisis. Brown is a brilliant crisis manager, we can't do wiithout him, because if it was not for Brown I do not know how bad things could be. I would be terrified. I wonder though how much all of this will cost! No doubt sales, and receipts of tax will now fall, and therefore the national debt will increase, and our council taxes will increase, natural events dear boy, God works in mysterious ways.
As for Brown I also understand that he is saying that the recent attempted coup has stiffened his, wait for it, resolve to carry on, and that he like Blair will serve a 'full term' after the general election. What we should be told is when the bye-election will be held after rthe recent death of Taylor, an MP. Now we all know about Blair and his full term, he resigned his seat after the Brown coup, and he personally served a full term, but not a parliamentary full term.
I look forward to the Cameron interview with Marr this morning, should be interesting, are you on any medication Mr Cameron, will you serve a full term, what will you do if you do not have the majority in the next parliament, what do you think of Browns jibes about the playing fields of Eton, class warfare re-emerging, all that sort of stuff.
What I want to know is that Brown told parliament at the time of announcing extra troops to the killing fields of Afghanistan that other countries were going to send soldiers! Well where are they, somebody should ask in parliament, who has sent extra soldiers, except for America, which was confirmed more or less on the day that Obama got his Nobel Peace Prize, ironic or what?
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Andrew,
the News of the World is carrying an inetrview with Gordon Brown and this is a quote:
"I am the Prime Minister and am determined to remain so. I am determined, I am resolute.
"I am concerned that the contribution I have got to make to the future of our party and the country is one that should continue."
A military 'rule' is that you never reinforce defeat, and I am cynical enough to ask which country is Brown talking about, Scotland, because Britain is not an actual single entity country. Britain is effectively a federal state, made up of individual countries. I don't like it when Brown refers to my country, or this country, he will never allow the word England, to cross his lips, study it for yourselves.
As for his 'concern' I bet he is, what on earth is he going to do after the defeat, not of him, but of his party, especially in England, or those parts of England which his government is not bribing. Bank of Scotland, saved, Royal bank of Scotland, saved, Northern Rock, in the North East saved, what about Corus, what about Woolworths. In the meantime Newcastle United still play with the Northern Rock logo on their shirts!
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Good morning each & Andrew.
I must begin my day by complaining of BBC news coverage and editorial 'bias'.
At about 1:06am this morning on BBC1 there was a 'studio change' in the news programme. A pointing-up of the main stories of the day. On the screen, in front of the news-reader was a broad line of text, which read...
"Robinson to resign?"
My complaint centres on the employment of a mis-shapen question mark, far too confusingly akin to an exclamation mark.
It struck me that the BBC was ahead of the news with this fake 'statement'and the BBC is guilty of 'pushing' the story along.
I go now to find the complaint page and C&P the above to the proper quarter.
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I have a public safety announcement. (and why not)
Does street crime get your goat?
Are you (now) fearful of your response?
It strikes me that to leap to the aid of a victim of street crime and to stay safe one needs a plan...
Practise engaging the camera on your phone blind. Educate your thumb to find the camera while you can keep your eyes on the situation around you.
Bring the lens to bear on the culpret and 'shoot, only then should you be concerned with getting the 'right' shot. You may need to seem to follow the criminals, you need not approach, just get a better shot if you can.
I hope, by following these few simple rules, all will be well and those responsible shall be brought to book.
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Isil (at 131) - do you feel that the rise in our living standards over the last umpteen years has been based not on real wealth creation, but on the exploitation of cheap money/resource/labour in the developing world? - i.e. that we pay ourselves more than we're worth, and are able to do only because others pay themselves less than they are worth?
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Andrew,
listened on Radio 5 to the interview with General Sir Mike Richards, the head of the army in Afghanistan.
Now one of the reasons he gave for our continued presence was that various 'promises' had been made in Afghanistan and Pakistan and that we continued to give aid to India.
Now what promises have been made to Afghanistan ruled by Quizling Karzai, who will soon be coming to London for another Brown 'conference'. What are we giving aid to a country India, which seems to use it to defeat our industry and cause unemployment. What on earth are we doing, or do we give aid just to stop them emigrating to Britain?
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For Catch22
Good-morning Andrew
Catch22
England is part of the United Kingdom it shares its lands and borders with Scotland to the North and Wales to the West; the Irish Sea is to the North West, and the Celtic Sea is to the South West and the North Sea to the East, with the English Channel to the South separating it from Continental Europe.
When P M Gordon Brown made his statement to the News of the World I am in mind had been talking about the UK as a whole.
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131. Isil
@91 "Gordon Brown is a great man, and I believe will be remember by history as such"
@131 "my mum? lol, after all, she's the one that raised me to question things, taught me to be a nonconformist"
A non-conformist you are!
Thanks for the response... I do slip into populist sentiment now and again, but I do lash myself with nettles as penitence afterwards. You make some valid points but I am struggling to come to terms with the 'Great Gordon' bit. Working in a creatively driven industry I have to have a pretty strong and active imagination, but that's a stretch too far IMHO.
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137. sagamix
Good point, S.
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Good-morning Andrew
For Catch22
Giving Aid to India would in my mind be benificial for the UK if it is used to cut down or stop the flow of Emigration from India
A clear Vote Winner - what do you think?
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Another disgruntled Labour insider outing Gordon (former General Secretary Peter Watt)... more roaches emerging from the woodwork.
Given the info that has come out (even if half of it is untrue) his last election u-turn now appears even more bizarre. Not the behaviour of a "great man".
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#139
I must declare that obviously I am English, born and bred in England, what annoys me most of all is people who are born and bred in England declaring themselves to be British. Brown never says that he is British, he says stuff like in my country, or my country, which I think means that the word English or England does not cross his lips.
I demand a referendum on whether I want the UK to continue, I want my freedom from the yoke of lesser nations, which are nothing but a drain on our resources. Time to go Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, I don't want you anymore, we are paying too much for some past misdemeanours.
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143. At 11:52am on 10 Jan 2010, TheBlameGame wrote:
Another disgruntled Labour insider outing Gordon (former General Secretary Peter Watt)... more roaches emerging from the woodwork.
Given the info that has come out (even if half of it is untrue) his last election u-turn now appears even more bizarre. Not the behaviour of a "great man".
===========================================
Agreed. The dysfunctional claim is backed up quite simply: all organisations be they in the business world, government or politics typically have agreements on non disclosure of confidential information when an employee leaves that organisation. In this case Watt makes it clear that Downing Street blamed Watt for the "cash for honours" fiasco, telling the police to go after him. The CPS did not prosecute, but little wonder that he holds a grudge.
The BBC as usual is showing it's impartiality by downplaying the whole thing but it is big at the Mail, Guido, Iain Dale, Coffee House etc. Brown comes out of it very badly, but what is new?
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Andrew,
surely the time has come for true openness, and transparency. I think that all cabinet meetings ought to be on the internet, live, no editing, let's see what a cabinet meeting is, have access to the papers, the comments, total access, all the time. The police in Plymouth have cameras fitted to their helmets for evidence, well why not link all our politicians, who they meet, what they say, what they promise. Now that would be an interesting idea for somebody to pick up and run with.
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101. At 5:39pm on 09 Jan 2010, Champion wrote:
...I have a free mind to use my vote which will be used on P M Gordon Brown.
===
Not unless you live in Kirkaldy & Cowdenbeath, it wont!
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Good-morning Daily Politics
for excellentcatblogger
The Gord Squad is Now in Operation
IN ARE: LORD MANDELSON ED BALLS ED MILLIBAND HARRIET HARMAN
YVETTE COOPER LIAM BYRNE ALISTAR DARLING
OUT: DAVID MILLIBAND JACK STRAW ALAN JOHNSON DOUGLAS ALEXANDER
P M Gordon has FROZEN his biggest leadership rivals out of Labour's Election Campaign.
Despite promising to consult the Cabinet more, Gordon Brown will use only
his closest advisers to fight the General Election.
There are No places for the ''BIG BEASTS'' DAVID MILLIBAND JACK STRAW
ALAN JOHNSON.
All three are seen as potential successors to P M Gordon Brown and will be furious they have been excluded and Business Secretary LORD MANDELSON WILL run the Campaign.
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Andrew,
whatever did happen to the Postal Strike. I wonder how many people realise the work which postal workers are doing, keeping the Mail going, can we have a minister saying the good work which some of the public servants are doing. The teachers seem to be above reproach, yet on Monday many students won't be able to take their exams because the teachers can't get through to their schools. Maybe they earn too much money, I'm not getting out of bed for that, it's much too cold.
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106. At 7:13pm on 09 Jan 2010, Champion wrote:
To TheBlameGame
In relation to you not knowing what it means most people not liking Gordon Brown because this is how he is protrayed by the media?
Answern to your question:
5/5/2009 The Economist partly owned by the Financial Times wrote an article that when he first took over as Prime Minister Gordon Brown, could do no wrong in the eyes of the media.
Then P M Gordon Brown decided against an Autumn Election and was immediately labelled a Dither, hardly fit for any high office and several other similar statements which has led to the P M being made a target.
I hope this information is helpful.
===
Champion, more useful is the new book by Peter Watt, former General Secretary of the Labour Party, who confirms that Brown did indeed dither about calling a General Election in 2007, calling it off days before the formal announcement was due. In doing so, he wasted £1.2million pounds of donations, at a time when the party was already £30 million in debt.
Nice to know that El Gordo is as profligate with Labour Party funds as he is with our money, nice that they share in our pain.
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~131 Isil
A bit late - but called away.
In reply:
No, no slight intended, I meant it in so far as if in the past ten years or more, it would be extremely difficult not to be affected by the policies of the present government, however or whichever way you try to live your life, if you have been living in this country. The present government have introduced so many policies which make supporting a family and working in the private sector without resorting to benefits very difficult. The increasing stealth taxes are beginning to burden the working people to the extent that they are pushed to living on credit, even if that is not what they would normally do.
As has been said by a previous poster, the government of the day must lead by example and the policies it makes. The recent example of the rush to buy before the VAT rise, how many of the consumer goods purchased were bought on credit cards - are we to believe that the government does not look ahead and for-see that it would boost sales at a time when perhaps it was needed. Were people manipulated into reacting this way?
Yes, we would all like to live in a land of 'roses and honey' but it's not real - savers are not rewarded, private pensions are raided. The "sweetie jar" as you say looks inviting - is there any wonder some of us succumb.
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Andrew,
referring back to General Richards and his 'interview' this morning on Radio 5 I wonder why he wasn't asked about the activities in Iraq by Blackwater security personnel who are not to be prosecuted, or even recent events in Afghanistan reported in the media:
On January 3, US troops dragged 10 Afghan civilians from their beds before shooting them at close range, according to an Afghan government probe.
Western military sources insisted that the victims, mostly adolescents, were all part of an "Afghan terror cell." That incident also sparked a demonstration in Jalalabad.
Can't wait for the visit of the Quizling Karzai, at another of Browns conferences. That is if he is able to get here through the severe weather conditions, which the great MoD department, the Met Office, can't quite get right.
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Andrew,
it is now being reported that a British journalist has now been killed in Afghanistan:
'British journalist Rupert Hamer, the Sunday Mirror's defence correspondent, has been killed in an explosion in Afghanistan, the Ministry of Defence has said'.
I hope that if there are no soldiers names to read out on Wednesday that Brown will not start to read out the names of civilians who die in this all so wasteful occupation. There is actually no point. If we send out civilians then they will have to be protected, and the Afghans won't do it, so no doubt we will have the private contractors doing the job.
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#153 C22
Private contractors?
I read elsewhere this morning that with the threat of further snow in the SE that Kent police have the Army on stand-by to help out.
Variety IS the spice of life.
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If I find Gordon repulsive, it doesn't mean I'm biased or that I've been brainwashed by the media, or I'd be one of the staring eye Global Warming zombies. It actually happens to be my own personal opinion. It only reflects the fact that Nu Labour and Gordon have became so besotted with media gurus. hat ever happened to Lord Sugar and Arlene 'somebody or other'. Any trivia for a TV spot politics with policy a mere weather vane governed by opinion polls.
I wouldn't credit Cameron as being much better, with policies difficult to distinguish from Gordon's. Gordon will be judged on the state of the country now, and it's rather hard to say that it's unfair to do that. Rather like saying that we can't denounce global warming just because it's freezing cold. That's not the point in either case. There's enough circumstantial evidence to undermine both. It's just harder to put up a fight when it's so obvious.
Global Warming is already shutting down the last vestiges of our industry as it already falls apart in the smoking ruin of our economy, and bankers still bleet about their bonuses. The greater surprise is that Labour sit among the Socialists in the EU. Explain that to me.
As for Labour's supposed dislike of 'non doms', isn't it surprising that a lawyer should make this comment during a case last year ?
"A lawyer has cautioned that Jersey could be in danger of selling itself as a place where tax evasion is condoned."
I'm following some links on that which appear interesting.
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#154
Oh don't worry the police are actually hiring in the owners of four wheel drive vehicles! This country is just so third world.
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#155
I used to work in the investment department of a merchant bank in the City. If they really wanted to all HMRC have to do is to raid the offices of the banks and they could soon pick up all those who have accounts in offshore Banks. Why has it taken them so long, since 1997 if my reckoning is right.
Also when will Brown tell us what he thinks of the banks paying the dues on all the bankers who will be getting their bonuses, it is almost as though the chancellor set the rules so that the bankers 'get away with it' again.
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'Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar'. (Julius Caesar)
Taking into account the failed coup last week who do some think is our current day Caesar. What will life be like after he is gone, can we cope, are we so pathetic?
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This country has really gone FUBAR! Businesses and home owners have been told NOT to clear icy or snow covered pavements, as they may be sued according to Health and Safety experts.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/6958131/Health-and-safety-experts-warn-dont-clear-icy-pavements-you-could-get-sued.html
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Andrew.
Where are the Public in all of this coverage of the Political scene?
On Satrday the 23rd Of January in Birmingham the 'independentnetwork' (dot org) will be hosting a meeting to help prospective Independent candidates through the election process.
Dr. TaylorMP, Martin Bell and a Mr. Givins (past I PPC) will each address the meeting.
Much else outwith Party Politics is happening right now with regard to the (perhaps) forthcoming election.
It is essential that this people-centred political work is given adequate space and time on the BBC. As ever you and your programmes could take the lead on this. Or join with the other self interested deniers of the people's right to choose from all options contained in the Ballot Paper and be roundly condemned.
We--the--people PAY for the BBC wtp should also have our voices heard.
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~159
Yes - I knew about this a long time ago - have been telling colleagues about it during the recent snowfall.
Nice to see it on the front page for all to see how mad Health & Safety has become!
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Meanwhile, in other watertight oversight news, Nick R's blog got to all of 32 before being closed down.
Maybe it was the wrong kind of snow?
No news is... er... probably for the best.
Somewhere I did read Mr. Brown has guaranteed our grit and gas supplies.
I'll get me coat.
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I am able to keep up with the blog via my iPhone whilst sipping on my 2nd G&T of the daywhilst roasting on a Capetian beach and with the weather so bad at home we have extended another week
I expect to find Catch 22/Taggy in the PMs office by the time I get back?!
Imanaged one day at the test matchast week which was memorable
Not surprised to learn about the GRIT debacle how r my buddies down indevon at theDCC
Good job I am away from Exeter whilst Brown and Bradshaw were in town because I left some eggs in the fridge?!
Hope all my blogging buddies are OK
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#163 eXmO
No worries as to burst pipes etc?
[one can at times be just a tad too smug] :)
BTW
There is a video-clip gaining popularity connected with this (our) freeze.
It is of a car on an icy road in Paignton, see if you catch it.
All the best.
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Why don't THE BLOGGER'S that have a GRIPE with the present GOVERMENT PLICIES GET A LIFE and GROW-UP there is an ELECTION coming up this year DO THE RIGHT THING make your OWN FEELINGS FELT by VOTING.
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#165
I don't know how long you will be contributing to this blog. We are not bloggers we are commenteers, Andrew is the blogger. I think that you will find that this is the most intelligent of blogs, and is kept open because many of us are just as 'expert' in our comments as the over paid experts who the media keep dragging up.
We are much more influential than Brown and the other politicians like, they fear us, because this is shown by how they try to react to our comments. For example, Brown is trying to get cheap publicity by holding wasteful cabinet meetings around the country. Only trouble is for security reasons they won't tell anybody in advance of the meetings. Surely not because they fear demonstrations from the cowed masses.
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sagamix 137
In essence that statement is true. I suspect a large percentage of people in Britain are not prepared to pay the full value of goods. They prefare to buy cheap clothes made in sweat shops, cheap food, not paying the farmers who deal in animal wellfare what they are worth and allowing the Supermarkets to control their lives and so on. Many will say however this is all low income families can afford. So it is really (forgive me catch) a catch 22.
However times are changing, those in the developing World are starting to understand the value of good education. They are indeed leaping ahead in many areas and one day it is Britain that may look the sick amn of the World. When that happens Sagamix will we then expect others to pay the full value of our products?
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Andrew,
do you remember that great summer when water was beginning to dry up and the government of the day created a new minister, minister for rain, and the very next week it rained, and rained, and rained. Well now that Brown has looked around the country with his good eye has realised that something needs to be done.
Lord Adonis tells that there is a task force doing sterling work on this. Supplies are going out, we are saved, Gordon is the right man for the job. A PM who is keeping the country going through the worst financial crisis for ... put your own dates in.
Can't wait for PMQs on wednesday, we live in interesting times, it really cannot go on like this, apparently we are now using the table salt rather than grit, or potash! How much is this costing?
Last year Devon County Council sold its salt to other counties, at a profit, and I hope that they have not done the same this year, leaving our roads unsalted, so that they make money out of fellow Britons suffering under these absolutely unbelievable severe weather conditions, which have so badly been forecast by the Ministry of Defence, sorry Met Office.
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165. Champion:
Too much snow, margo/Champion? ;)
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The BlameGame 169
I noticed that too!
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Champion.
You're quite right that we have an election coming and we can vote the government out but is there really much difference between their ideas?
Effectively they are both left of centre with similar environmental, social and now economic policies. The Tories big ideas seems to be to get rid of the hunting legislation, which doesn't affect me, and to repatriate powers from Europe, which they will drop as soon as they're in power.
I want to vote for an anti-man made warming party with half a chance of achieving power. UKIP has this policy but will be a wasted vote.
So tell me Champion, how can I express my frustration with the system except by grousedly responding on blogs?
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Please forgive grousedly.
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ref 164 Tom Austin
Not intending to be smug Tom just sharing my joy with my fellow bloggers. No burst pipes here but the worst drourght for many years.
Taggy, of course the
DCC sold their grit mate big bucks in gritsalt these days
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Andrew,
both socialism, and capitalism are both terminated. What is the alternative, we have tried gradualism, maybe something else is needed.
My problem is that after the general election, which must be held by June will not resolve anything. I feel a new militancy, how long until their is a government of national unity?
The new leader, why not David Davis, who had the guts the quit parliament, maybe Brown should have shown the same true grit, then he wouldn't be where he is today, up the swannee river without a paddle.
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#171
The trouble with democracy is that we can't vote out the government. If everybody voted labour, everybody, except me, then would I have the government I want. No. What could I do about it, nothing, even though it may be the worstest ever government that ever had power to rule, I could nothing nothing about it. Anybody call this a democracy, no government is what I want. None at all. I wonder what Darwin would say about no government, could we survive without it, I no of no government in any of the evolved species, why do we actually need it.
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important industrial tribunal to watch coming up 18/21jan Mick Dooley v Balfour Beatty ref the blacklisting scam
Dr Otto Chan decision hasn't been published yet either?!
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EXXONMOBIL173
All is well Exxon except we are missing your posts, hope you are having a wonderful time.
XXXXXX
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xTunbridge 132
Yes, every time I turn my back what happens?
Here is a forecast for you, you will be going on a long, long journey tonight, through the snow and ice. At the end will lie something you have looked forward to all day.
Now what could that be, I wonder.
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A nice reminder that we had a Minister for Rain, and there's one for the Internet, and one for Global Warming (I hope he's not allowed to wear a hat and gloves) and after margo's comment, does that make our illustrious leader the Minister for Grit ? I do find him scratchy and irritating.
I suppose we should also have a Minister for snow, and then there should be a Minister for wind, shouldn't there ? I'm saying nothing.
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Do William McGonagall and Gordon Brown share the same lineage?
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This "Wasted Vote" business; no such thing. Well only to the extent that, under First Past The Post, ALL votes are wasted. Thing is, everyone's vote counts ONE. Thus, unless your constituency is decided by a single vote (won't happen), the result of the general election (in seats) will be exactly the same whether you vote or not. May as well stay in bed because, if you define a vote as "counting" only if it affects the electoral outcome, then each and every individual vote is wasted. Which means, of course, if you think about it this way, that NO vote is actually wasted.
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Dear eXmo @173
It was the pipes of Exeter to which I was referring in the forlorn hope that it might cast a slight pall over the beech. In a sporting way. :)
The Groundhog Day we have had here does take the shine of life, even for the most optimistic of us. Hurry back. ;) [Oudeis]
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#181 Saga
Votes are wasted ONLY if you vote for any of the big three partys.
Vote Local.
Vote Independent.
Vote FOR Democracy.
BUT! Vote.
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178 Croftie
You have second sight ?
The amber liquid, the water of life and excellent company.
Snowing again and starting to settle, see what morning brings.
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181#
So, is it or isnt it wasted, mate? ;-)
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165#
As soon as you know who calls the election, we'll be ready to vote, dont you worry about that. Its just two years overdue!
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Good-morning Andrew
for DrBrianS
My prediction Re 125 in sorts has come to pass. Due to the past and more recent attempts to oust our Great Leader P M Gordon Brown.
True Grit has responded back by taking the following action will spread his most trusted M P's to be members of The Gord Squad now here is Gord opportunity for those commentators on Andrew's Blog site.
Why not consider joining the Labour Party? All members are given a hugely amount of privileges benefits and rewards and to thank-you for your trusted services to the P M and Labour Party you will be invited to become a member of the Elite Gord Squad.
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No sign of the boy Robinson appearing any time soon then? Some interesting things out on the horizon, particularly Peter Watt's upcoming book and the very interesting comments made by Darling at the weekend ref cuts, which sets him completely at odds with Brown/Balls... and the Thatcherite comments also made by Mandy, which if they had been made by Cameron would have had the left leaners and the rebuttal unit troops foaming at the mouth.
And, despite all this food for blogging, our erstwhile political editor is nowhere to be seen. Quelle Surprise.
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#139
There is something called the BBC, which actually isn't the BBC, its the B.B.C. which is the British Broadcasting Corporation. Now there is also the United Kingdom, or otherwise the U.K. or sometimes the UK. There is also BBC Scotland, BBC Wales, and I don't know about Northern Ireland. Now there is actually no Britain, there is Great Britain, but not Britain, it is actually Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but that does not include Ireland, or Eire, or Southern Ireland. There is nothing called I believe BBC England, there is the regions, but not a BBC England.
Now my problem is the use of foreign journalists on the BBC. I wake up to the sound of Scots, Welsh, Irish voices, and squeeky young women, with their grating voices, and what I really want to hear is middle class English voice, not people thrown up from the East End of London. Not that they should have gone to elocution classes, but would others agree with me that it would be nice to hear where the owner of that voice does not elongate their vowels, or have sort of speech impediment! This is not a call for cut glass English, but listening to the lawyers on the inetrviews about the courts, you could actually hear everything they said. As for Robert Peston, please!
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bdz @ 181
"So, is it or isn't it wasted, mate?"
I'd say both - under the vagaries of FPTP, every vote is at the same time vital AND a complete waste.
I also agree with Tom (183) that if you want to send the message that you are terminally hacked off with "The Establishment", you need to vote anything (short of BNP) bar the main parties; although it's perhaps a bit unfair to tar the LibDems as a main party, in this context, since they've never a crack at national government.
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#188
could it be that the individual concerned is still emabarrassed by his quotes on the Daily Politics and the 'coup'. Oh how I laughed, he really should have spoken to Peston on how to get an exclusive!
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Good-morning Andrew and all at The Daily Politics
for Catch22 189
Who do you think you are?
You really have serious problem's going on in your life and its no wonder when you hold such abhorrent strongly opposed remarks about certain Ethnic groups because do not fit with your style in literature and vocabulary - get a life by trying to fit in with the system.
There should be No place on Andrew's blog allowed for such comments-but I need to remember we all are entitled to free speech - at least I know where your coming from and that's enough for me.
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191.
It's up there with his 'small beer' remark on the expenses scandal.
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Andrew,
from what I know just as the English are not an ethnic group, neither are any of the others who inhabit the Great Britain. In fact I have a serious problem with regard to any so called ethnic group. Are we seriously going to go back to NAZI Germany and ethnic groups, some being superior or inferior to others.
I do not believe in countries or borders, or artificially created states. Surely most people have seen the view of planet earth from the moon, the most expensive photo ever taken. This is one world, one planet earth, no borders, but most of all no government!
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Sagamix 190
Some would say Sagamix that there has never been a more optimistic time for a true working class warrior. Mandelson once famously said 'New Labour is intensly relaxed about people becoming filthy rich'. Which was obviously the philosophy that has been used by them over the last 12 years. The gap between rich and poor continues to grow as well under Labour, it appears. The rank and file of Labour over the Blair years, due to war and the policies pursued, have become very discontented not least amongst Union members. The hope was under Brown the Labour party would return to its core values. This of course has not happened, even though token efforts in the wrong direction have been tried by Brown.
However out in Britain the majority of people still sell their Labour for money in the same way they always did. It may be different in some ways but the principle is still the same. Therefore it would occur to many that there is a huge gap needing to be filled for voters who need a natural home. Surely therefore it must have occurred to many that this is the perfect time to set up a socialist alternative to Labour.
Not voting, after the struggle of all those brave people, men and women, fought so hard for this precious right to vote, is not an option one would have thought.
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Andrew,
it should be a very interesting week. I think that it is on Tuesday that a certain Mr Campbell will be giving 'evidence' to the Chilcot Inquiry.
Now that will be worth tuning in to, so turn on, and tune in. Shame about the weather taking up most of the headlines, I wonder if Brown will be turning on, and tuning in.
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189.
Catch, get a grip. Take a tolerance pill.
Some of most correctly pronounced English comes from Scotland. I do miss the old RP and the loss of well-enunciated English but many of the accents beyond English borders are a pleasure to the ear.
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Hi Andrew, and all at the Daily Politics
For Catch22 194
An Ethnic Group is a Group of Humans Beings whose members are distinguished by others or themselves primaraily on the basis of Cultural or Nationality Characteristics.
And I believe its a fair statement to say that Scotland England Ireland and Wales come under such a group.
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@ 195 - Indeed, Susan, a genuine progressive Left alternative to Labour, an attractive thought. In practice, however, I reckon the best way to get that is to hijack an existing, well established party and tug it in the necessary direction; a party such as - let me think - Labour! But they have to lose first, and preferably lose badly. And the trouble with that is we might then have to tolerate a Tory government with a big majority. At least for a short while. A price worth paying for the long term pay back? Maybe. Course you and I don't mean the same thing when we talk about "left wing", do we?
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Sagamix 199
Maybe not, However does that matter. I refuse on a personal level to be hi-jacked by any organised way of thinking, except my own. I feel, this has been modern mans greatest failure not to think for themselves, but to allow media and political parties to do it for them. That is why we have no Darwin's anymore.
That however surely does not prevent me from presenting the argument, to give others a new way of looking at an issue.
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195/200 Susan
Maybe a revival of the social democrats? - a mixture of compassion, responsibility and financial competence... independent of the vested interests of business, unions and the public sector.
The current parties all carry too much historical baggage to be fit for purpose - a period of political re-alignment would be a definite improvement.
....that's me back off down the yellow brick road
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for TheBlameGame 193
I cannot believe the unjustified critiscism and humiliating remarks made by 189 its an unwarranted debate.
But I certainly agree with your remarks about;
some or most correctly pronounced English comes from Scotland.
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197 TheBlameGame
Yes indeed and also some of the most unintelligible speech known to man, Rab C Nesbit ? When I worked in a supply industry I used to dread the phone calls from Glasgow.
I think people are being a bit harsh on Catch 222's 189. I often whimsically think wouldnt it make a nice change to have an "english" voice reading the news.
Someone of note recently descrbed the Beeb as being run/ staffed by ethnics, gays and leftie liberals and pruducing a culture reflecting that.
198 Champion
You are joking aren't you ?
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meninwhitecoats 201
I believe the Social Democrats was the model used by New Labour to attain office the so called 'Third Way'. If you think about it before he came to office that is exactly the message that Blair was trying to give. A Government which floats between business, Unions and the public sector. His main stance was supposed to be compassionate Government. However when Blair came to office, he found that he was both out of his depth in not understanding how Government and the economy works and his greed took over his somewhat shallow beliefs. He then did not have the intellect nor the proper advisors to meet his commitments by turning Government around.
Blair then lost interest in keeping any control over Government allowing Brown to control a good part of the economic side, the result we now see. Blair then decided to become a World leader instead of Britains PM to make his mark in the World. Britain was merely the tool he used to achieve this.
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~175 Catch22
Re your "why do we need government"
We are all species of animals - even the lowest of them have a "pecking order". Ours just happens to be voting for a Party with a Leader who then runs the country.
It only becomes a disaster when the government we vote in can't run the country for the good of the people.
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The Prime Minister has chosen as an inspirational poem, “Invictus” by William Ernest Henley, also known for his line “What have I done for you, England, my England?”
Oh dear, does Gordon want a list ?
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xTunbridge 203
I will tell you now, I am Scottish from Glasgow we are a very proud of our Country Villages Towns and Cities regards to all other;
Countries and their Cultures Scotland offers A Welcome Courtesy and Respect but expects the same in return.
We may not be the perfect Nation but we are the perfect Host.
And in response 198 I am not joking.
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Hi Andrew, I'm watching your daily politic show for Monday 11th Jan 2010 and I'm getting sick & tired of hearing from Libdem & Labour representatives, that the Tory policy on inheritance tax will only benefit a handful of multi-millionaires? My parents are in their late eighties, have very little income, they bought their house from taxed income since 1952 and just because home values have risen, over many years, the Libdems & Labourites are calling them multi-millionaires its crass class nonsense!!! They would be hit by not raising the IHT to £1M now is that fair. It's certainly an unfair way to present those in this situation, how typical of the politics of envy in this country. When will we ever have a free society, those who work hard should be able to keep more for their efforts. Just like the rest of the world, many other countries have No IHT or CGT why are we so backward or is it all just to fund our benefits society?
Big Al
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Re :189
Hi Catch I dont know if you know this but the BBC does have a BBC England. At least it has part of its website that is about England
http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/
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#197
'Take a tolerance pill'. Is that not one of the problems of our society, insofar that people really do think that there is a pill for everything.
I have a problem in that there are some so called utilitarians who think that there should be some sort of happiness pill. It is because people take a pill which they hope will solve their problem that we are where we are today. I think that what the country really needs is a touch of misery, total abject misery, then they may actually think about 'stuff' rather than pretend to be happy, when manifestly people are not at all 'happy'. The quality of life in this country is falling, so I say to the politicians, 'get a grip'.
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~206 GomerPyle
Yes - I heard about him choosing a poem (huh!).
Surely this is a ploy, in every sense, spin, sympathy card, call it what you like - it's just another thing to put out there to convince the 'voters' he connects to "the people".
I think it's very cynical - expect a lot more of this type of stuff to surface.
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#195 Susan-Croft
For once Susan I completely agree with you.
#199 Saga
The current Labour party would require a lot of effort to purge itself of the "NuLab" values and return to it's socialist roots. However I do take your point that this length of time would still porve to be far shorter than establishing a completely new political party in the publics eye.
#203 xTunbridge
"I think people are being a bit harsh on Catch 222's 189. I often whimsically think wouldnt it make a nice change to have an "english" voice reading the news."
Try BBC News 24. Also, does Pacman on Newsnight or Dimbledore on QT not count either?
With regards Glaswegian accents, you must be having a laugh with some of the many unintelligible dialects also to be found across England, perhaps it depends on what your exposed to and how good a listener/decoder you are?
i.e. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8306582.stm
As the great Stanley Baxter once said: Parliamo Glasgow?
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/tayside/66871-stanley-baxter-parliamo-glasgow-christmas-special/
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Andrew,
'The prime minister, freed of what he described at the weekend as "silly threats" to his leadership, will today promise his MPs the whole party will take the fight to the Tories. He will also promise to serve a full term if re-elected'.
I unfortunately missed your programme this morning but wondered if anybody else has picked-up on what I have been saying all the time. So Brown will promise to serve a full term if re-elected. I would ask that he says that in parliament, so that it can be recorded in Hansard. Also, can he say that he did not agree with the action taken by Blair who also said he would serve 'a full term'. Can we have a full categoric statement from Brown as to what he actually means. For example, does he mean leader of the labour party, or Prime Minister. remember, we don't elect a Prime Minister, as others as well as myself have confirmed, so what does he actually mean, just his constituency, but not the labour party, or Prime Minister.
Do I trust Brown? No! A full categoric no. The chickens are coming home to roost.
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It's time the three main political parties stopped trying to dupe the electorate with slogans and weasel words (Time for Change, Party of Aspiration, Party of Fairness, etc, etc).
They should simply publish their manifestos, stating clearly their intended actions on all aspects of society (economy, education, health, welfare,immigration, EU, defence, climate, taxes, parliament, etc), leaving voters to choose which party to support - if any.
Surely every sane person is sick and tired of political manoeuvring and duplicity? We don't need them to waste hours telling us the faults of other parties (PMQs, for example, has become a disgraceful joke). They should simply get on with the jobs they are well paid to do and leave the judgements to us.
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Catch22 Re213
How very very SAD seems to me that you have missed out in a lot through your life, it MAY be a result from Talking to much and NOT listening.
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214 mike-jay
Ideally yes to all of the above.
Unfortunately everyone is holding back because the truth may be deemed to be unpalatable and we don't know yet if the situation will worsen. If the markets start to take fright and it becomes difficult for the government to raise finance it is a completely different scenario.
Any hard plans are probably meaningless as this point, they can only talk in generalities
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212 ScotInNotts
On the other uninteligible accents I would agree with you, there is a town a few miles from where I live called Lower Gornal and it is as, perhaps more, unintelligible as broad Glaswiegan.
Have you ever seen that very old clip played on "alright on the night" type shows of the shop steward being interviewd over a strike at the docks? I forget how many times the poor interviewer tried to get him to slow down the machine gun delivery.
Sorry to seem to pick on the Scots but I am often bemused when the TV puts subtitles on for African and Asian interviewees who are perfectly understandable but never for broad Scots who , with respect, are for many people unintelligible. I also recall my local radio station some years ago playing a news tape wrongly delivered to them instead of Scotland. It was, they said, a report about a robbery. The only word that most were able to understand was police, and that was pronounced poliss.The station played it on and off all day .
Even after watching every episode of the marvelous Rab C Nesbit, remember the beatitudes lesson when he was at school? " Perhaps in Castlemilk but no in Govan". I could still only get about two thirds of the heavy dialect stuff. Which is more than I can for Lower Gornal.
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Hello, Andrew and all at The Politics Show
For Susan-Croft
Prior to the mid-19th century politics in the United Kingdom was dominated by the Whigs and the Tories. These were not political parties in the modern sense but somewhat loose alliances of interests and individuals.
The Whigs were associated with the newly emerging moneyed industrial classes and the Tories were associated with the landed gentry, the Church of England and the Church of Scotland.
By mid 19th century the Tories had evolved into the Conservative Party and the Whigs evolved into the Liberal Democrats.
These two Parties dominated the political scene the 1920's, when the Liberal Democrats declined in popularity and suffered a long stream resignations. It was replaced as the main left by the newly emerging Labour Party who represented an alliance between the Trade Unions and various socialist societies.
Since then the Conservative and Labour Parties have dominated British Politics, and have alternated in goverment ever since.
The Labour Party : Centre-Left; historically allied to Trade Unions; mixed market ( Third Way ) policies have replaced its earlier more socialist platform in recent years; supports European intergration.
The Conservative Party ; Centre-right party which can be loosely divided into three categories; though with considerable overlap: The Thatcherites, who strongly support a free market and tend to be Eurosceptic, the economically moderate but socially conservative One Nation Conservatives, and the libertarian Conservative Way Forward.
The Liberal Democrats ; Tradionally centrist, had drifted slightly to the left since the emergence of New Labour while remaining socially progressive but now move towards a Tax-cutting agenda; strongly supports greater European intergration . Promote social liberlaism; opposing what they call a Nanny State; while supporting the welfare state for the basic necessities of life.
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#215
Wow, do I seem to have touched a raw nerve. I have to go to the dentist next week to have a tooth extracted, I will no doubt suffer a lot.
In the meantime all I have to say is to listen to the Campbell evidence tomorrow when he is before the Chilcot Inquiry.
Just to say that a very close family member of mine served in Afghanistan, and Iraq. What few people seem to understand that human beings killed fellow human beings based on what many now regard to as misleading statements from the then Prime Minister. Many people have blood on their hands because of this government, I can't wait until Blair, and eventually Brown have to give their evidence. Yes, I can be seen as sad, and angry, I think with some justification.
Interesting that a poll should be produced, and referred to by Miliband, which says how well people see things progressing in Afghanistan, and that Karzai is shown in a better light, the same Quizling Karzai who is coming to London for another one of Brown's conferences. Oh, shame about the deaths of the American and French soldiers, at the last count I heard six deaths. The worst day of violence for a long time. Please, Afghanistan, just like Iraq, is a disaster.
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#217 xTunbridge
I've had fun during my time here in Notts with my West coast/Glaswegian accent. I asked for a chicken burger and a pint in Wetherspoons once, the bar guy stood, turned round to look at the spirits and then replied "sorry, I don't know how to make that!". He thought I was asking for a cocktail instead of my meal?! :)
Then I handed him my Clydesdale bank note just to seal the deal.
Rab C, Taggart and Train Spotting are the usual suspects in conversation Re Scots accents among my colleagues here. Some people get offended when they put up subtitles for Scots accents, I think it's actually quite amusing.
I don't remember the shop steward on "alright on the night", I do remember the interview with an Irish gent, the only words that you could make out where "Straabaan" (Strathbane) throughout his piece to camera.
To be fair unless your familiar with someone speaking a particular language, dialect or accent, you do tend to require the speaker to speak more slowly and concisely in order for the listener to decipher what is being said. I know I need German speakers to talk at a lesser pace when conversing with them.
I do find that I tend to smooth out my accent here as compared to when I'm back home in Scotland. Fortunately I work with people from all over the world, hence everyone tends to have to smooth out their accent in order to be understood.
If anything it's one of the best things about the British Isles in my opinion, the sheer number of different accents squeezed into the place is astounding!
FYI in your Parliamo Glasgow lessons Castlemilk is pronounced Castlemulk :)
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for xTumbridge
I totally agree with everything you say about how the Glaswegian accent can be very difficult to understand, its not only your-self but all other countries including some Scots also find themselves struggling trying to decipher understand the dialect; but its exactly for this reason :
Glasgow is a City of Culture.
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#221 Champion
Is that not Cultya?
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#221
I used to work in Prague, and used an interpretor at first when teaching my 'students'. There was one classic, I asked the class what I had been talking about during the day and did they understand me. Through the interpretor they said yes except why, when talking about banking and finance did I refer to the Flinstones. I gasped, audibly, I said the Flinstones, I have never mentioned the Flinstones. They said you do all the time! So I said I haven't, give me a for instance? They said 'there you go you've said it again'. I am from the westcountry!
The other classic was when they used to put up sub titles in English on the ir TV programmes. Can you imagine when slightly squiffy on Vodka Monty Python is like when you have it in sub-titles, I mean it was bizarre. Now that would be a brilliant programme for the BBC, re-import the exports with sub titles. As for Doctor Murder, which was how they described the pathologist!
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222 ScotsInNotts
May I venture Cultcha which strangely is, when said with different inflections and one one note ,Brummie !
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221 Champion
When I used to do business in Glasgow, I would meet with some very quietly spoken Glaswegian boffins with a propensity to mumble into their beards.
The first hour of most of the meetings used to pass me by whilst I became atuned to the accent, during which time I probably seemed exceedingly thick not taking in very much at all.
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#216 menin
I take your point, but they could still cut out a lot of the dishonest/misleading/pointless propaganda for a start. And they could at least state clearly their intentions dependent on the emerging economic situation. If that was judged to be too risky, they could say so and keep quiet until things became clearer.
The anti-politics syndrome (excluding the effects of the expenses fiasco) is largely due to the dubious or childish public statements of the various spokespersons and their totally predictable partisan responses in interviews. These are in contrast to the good work that is carried out by Select Committees and in many constituencies. Many of the poorly attended debates in the HoC are also quite sensible and interesting.
Statesmanlike behaviour by those appearing in the media needs resurrecting.
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Andrew,
I think that it is time to revisit the proposal to re-link pensions to average earnings. This is not the time to do this, with wages rates falling around the globe. The problem is that the link to wages relies on having good statitics, I can see prices rising every time I go shopping.
There must be an announcement from prospective MPs that there is not a link to wages, but the existing link to the Retail Prices Index must continue for the foreseeable future, and there must be a referendum before the plan is implemented. I ask others to think on it, as for the link to Consumer Prices Index, please, that also would be a disaster.
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Andrew,
I am so angry about the change to the law which Harman has made today with regard to employment over 65. This is a disaster for yong people. Of course people must be retired at sixty five, how on earth will young people be able to get a job. Also older people will have their wages subsidised by their pensions. Wage rates will reduce as people will take a job because they don't want to spend time with their partners.
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Accents!
I blame Wilfred Pickles.
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226 mike-jay
I wonder how much the rolling news contributes to the propensity for ill prepared politicians to present themselves to camera?
Considered discussion can be construed as weakness by the media - I often listen to the interviews on R4's PM on my way home and am appalled at how the interviewer interrupts the politicians by trying to get a black/white answer from a politician who is trying to give a considered response, this invariably ends with the interviewer resorting to a facile comment like so you don't know.
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Does anyone share my unease at the conviction of five Muslim men who demonstrated in Luton at the homecoming parade of the 2nd Battalion Royal Anglian Regiment.
I do not approve of what they had to say and , perhaps prejudicially,
find their appearance both out of place in this country and faintly ridiculous with western clothing over and under the Muslim tunic.
However and especially as they agreed everything with the police beforehand and there were no objections it begs the question as to how anyone can demonstrate without fear of prosecution now.
The quoting of Voltaire and the pointing out of the police prior approval by defence counsel held no sway with District Judge Carolyn Mellanby. Despite my disapproval of them and what they had to say on the day I hope they are cleared on appeal, for all our sakes.
An afterthought, now that prtection against double jeopardy has gone and you can be prosecuted until the govt/police/whoever get the verdict they want. Does this work in reverse ? Can you ask for trial after trial until you are found not guilty ?
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missing the point mr jay - politicians are trained to avoid giving a direct answer : thats their raison d'etre- so the team on PM are absolutely right to highlight this . 'a considered response' ??? Nah- an avoidance strategy.
Anyway , Ed Balls v David Millband for next leader ???- oh yes please > what a couple of 'Z' listers .... lets look at their performances as they position themselves for the inevitable post-election 'dog-fight' and then swear undying loyalty to the Party and each other ---give me strength.
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#230 menin
Yes, I've listened to lots of those interviews, but in some cases the politicians were clearly trying to avoid being honest or answering the specific question put to them. They could, of course, confront the interviewer head on and say that they don't have an answer, or were unaware of certain events, or simply weren't prepared to respond to that question.
Also, some interviewers are obviously politically biased - such as Marr and Naughtie - and allow some politicians to respond at length (not always to the question asked), but continually interrupt others.
I think that genuinely honest and forthright politician will always cope satisfactorily with interviewers of any type.
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#231
At last some people will begin to understand why I have been so concerned about the injunction taken out by the Ministry of Defence, and granted by a judge in the high Court, preventing a very close family member from speaking in public about extra-ordinatu rendition, enhanced interrogation tecniques, and the American attitude towards the local Iraqi population.
It was in February last year that John Hutton had to admit in parliament that previous holders of his post had misled parliament over detainees and what happened to them.
There is no freedom of speech any more, although it does depend on what you say, but more importantly how you say it. Can't wait for Campbells evidence to the Chilcot inquiry tomorrow.
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Re :231
xtun I for one do not feel any unease whatsoever about the conviction of these people.
I protested on Andrew's blog at the time about this. It isnt that I object to these people or any other protesting. I object strongly however to people using soldiers as a scapegoat for the shortcomings, percieved or otherwise, of politicians and the decisions they make.
As far as I am concerned their action was inappropriate at best and offensive at worst.
Soldiers in this country deserve the respect of all sections of the community irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the war.
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#232 ninja
I'm fully aware how rigorously they are trained in avoidance techniques these days - that's more or less what I'm complaining about. Their brain-washed interview responses, blatant propaganda strategies, plus a multitude of elementary gaffs and thinly veiled lies, have brought politics into disrepute. It's depressing that all signs point to the general election run-up bombarding us with more of the same.
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#235 sa
I agree with your sentiments about our soldiers.
If the protests had been at Westminster about the political decisions, it would have been a somewhat different matter, although the inflammatory language used was not appropriate for any kind of protest.
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I have to agree whole heartedly about all the comments coming from
231
234
235
I have to admit, from what you had to say all your comments were well presented and founded as its certainly a very disconcerning and dishearting time we are all being allowed to live under.
Perhaps more the reason I try to believe its not happening by acting the fool because no one takes a fool seriously - or do they?
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ref 177 susan croft
Thanks Crofty, I miss you too ?!
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Big Al @ 208
"those who work hard should be able to keep more for their efforts. Just like the rest of the world, many other countries have no IHT. Why are we so backward or is it all just to fund our benefits society?"
But your example ... buying a house and living in it for umpteen years as it rockets up in value ... that's not really "hard work", is it?
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coats @ 230
I'm also sick and tired of "rottweiler" interviewers trying to rough up politicians. Whole thing becomes just a game. Bim bam bim bam. Can be entertaining but you learn almost nothing. Has to be a better way.
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Re :237
You are right mike-jay. If this protest had taken place outside Parliament it would have been a different matter.
It was interesting to see these individuals on the news tonight with someone behind them holding a placard that read
"Islam will rule the world to hell with Freedom"
Politicians should be doing as much to combat these fascists as they would any other.
Not one of them seems to have the bottle to condemn this kind of inflammatory language though. No doubt if the BNP were on our screens holding up placards with similar phrases their would be a stampede of them into broadcasting studios to denounce it.
Yet another example of their double standards and spineless cowardice as far as I can see.
And no one should read into that support for the BNP.
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@241
The pernicious bludgeoning tactics of some interviewers tends to make the more self effacing politicians appear vacilating rather than thoughful.
Of course the bruisers like Mandelson & Balls can handle themselves [ let's face it - would you want to meet them in a dark alley?] - they parry the questions go off on their own tack until the interviewer gives in.
I particularly remember an interview with Estelle Morris, a very worthy MP but not particularly suited to the cut and thrust of politics, where she was mocked by the interviewer for admitting some policy had not worked. Her honesty was derided and she was labelled as being a failure - not much incentive for honesty really?
..... that said I am partial to Paxo getting to the nub of an issue.
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I have no disagreement with what any of you say about the inappropriatness of their demo but until this judgement, which fortunately was in a Magistraites Court and not precedent setting, I hope, we were all in theory at liberty to demonstrate.
This was a small demo pre agreed with the police, not a huge London job were the police can claim all sorts to do illegal things like "kettling".
Until SuperAngry mentioned the BNP I had not thought what a gift in a strange way this conviction could be. Interesting to see how they could use it as a freedom issue when it is Muslims having freedoms denied.
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c @ 243
Yes, you are absolutely NOT allowed to say "I was wrong on that" or "I've changed my mind" - you say stuff like that and the finger of derision gets pointed. Imagine how long any real human relationship would last if all this sort of honest communication was rendered impossible. It could be we are only waiting for some major UK politician to start breaking these "Rules" and that, if they did, they might reap the benefits. Be quite a risk, though, and nobody (bar fringe players like Boris Johnson) seems to be up for it. Not that I want to see BoJo go any higher in the political world than he is now. Paxman is still very good but lapses into a carricature of himself, sometimes - happens to most successful media types, that does. Best to retire them while they're still on top but that never happens, of course.
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It isn't an issue of freedom of speech as they would themselves wish to impose a complete suppression of dissent in their vision of an Islamic society. Those who seek to promote tyranny will always attempt to employ the garb of the downtrodden and discriminated minority and use our freedoms as justification for them to breach the law.
They have a right to protest but not to protest in any way they please. It is indeed bizarre to be supposedly trying to suppress the Taliban in Afghanistan and yet treating like minded Muslims in the UK so differently.
Hurling abuse and foul language is not acceptable - that's the law. The same tactics were used to defuse football hooligans and the similarity is close. Do you want to have football fans running in large numbers on a Saturday threatening all and sundry ? The fact that any protest is allowed and agreed beforehand does not mean that it is not then free to do as it pleases.
Mr Choudary is still chattering away on his website, though I note he keeps re-editing his comments daily in an attempt to suppress his natural instinct to outrage.
Attempting to stage or provoke a riot isn't a justifiable form of protest. I believe their lawyer quoted Voltaire's views on freedom of speech, not a very good precedent to quote for an English court.
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tun @ 244
An interesting case. Wonder if this charge of being abusive and causing distress is brought often in the context of political demos?
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246 Gomerpyle
I do not support these demonstrators but , a la Voltaire, support their right to demonstrate and say things I find objectionable.
When did football hooligans pre arrange their violence, not verbal abuse violence, with police ?
I worry about the wood for the trees on this one. That their demonstration was arguably inappropriate removes their , and our, right to demonstrate? Yopu know like China several years behind bars if not execution for demonstrating against the govt. A slippery slope my friend.
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247 Saga
I am realy worried about the reaction of some regular posters to this site who seem unable to see the threat that this judgement could have on all our rights to demonstrate. Comparing the lack of such free speech in Muslim countries misses the point somewhat I feel.
Your question is very pertinent and I hope someone will answer it. Wasnt there official criticism recently of the Met's way of policing demos ? Only after they were involved in the death of a non demonstrator of course.
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Re:249
xtun this has nothing to do with Freedom of Speech or for that matter the right to protest.
Assuming the Regiment in quesstion was away for 6 months or 183 days this group had 182 days to protest as they pleased so why didnt they?
The answer was they made a deliberate decision to be domonstrate on that day in order to be as offensive and insulting as possible to people who put their lives in danger to defend the very Freedom they now find objectionable and want to overthrow.
If I had my way I would strip them of their nationality, assuming they have been given or are British Nationals, and hoof them out of the country. If they hate Freedom so much I am sure they will find a much more satisfying regime somewhere in the world to live under.
They give decent Muslims a bad name and their actions incite racial hatred. This country is far to soft on people of this ilk and its about time politicians did something about it.
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250 SuperAngry
I have little disagreement with much of what you say.
However I used to attend edmos in the heady 60s and 70s and you timed your demo for maximum effect and publicity, so did this bunch of dissafected bods. Normal practice.
You dont have a G8 or whatever demo when it aint on do you ?
Everyone keeps missing the point that it was okayed with the cops beforehand .
And the more worrying point that if they can do it to them they can do it to you.
Never were the words of Pastor Niemoller more worthy of consideration.
First they came for the communists and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.
We are on a slippery slope my friend. Do so called Christians still hassle deperate women outside abortion clinics ? If so should they be subject to this interpretation of the law ?
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Re :251
xtun I am afraid you are wrong. These are protestors like you were or the others you describe.
These people are no different to 5th columists. They have an avowed wish to overthrow the state and they should therefore be treated as enemies of the state.
In no way whatsoever can they be compared with other protesters.
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This is probably the most difficult subject we have ever tackled, when does the right to protest become against our national interest. Or when is it so distasteful we must ban protest on moral grounds. I remember when I lived in London there were always protests about something or other, I remember that many would say to me 'this has nothing to do with Britain it should not be allowed' or 'it would never be allowed in any other Country' and so on. Of course the real reason was it held up traffic and this was the main concern. I do not know if this is the situation now as I only visit London and stay over night sometimes.
I guess in the end it comes down to, if you close down the protest do you close down the argument. Or does it merely go underground. Would you rather be aware that these people exist or would you rather the police took action to stop them. In China demonstration is not allowed and the police enforce a rigorous campaign of dealing with discontent. When does stopping the right to protest move to closing down all discontent. Where is the line drawn.
Where I think the problem really lies is that take the BNP they are restricted in many ways. Their offensive message and right to protest is often closed down or they are not allowed to march. Look at the fuss made over their appearance on Question Time. Therefore maybe the 5 muslim men were more a symbol to the white majority that fairness will prevail. Politics always has its place in all decisions. Judging by the fear that the BNP have instilled in politicians they may very well not want another stick for the BNP to beat them with.
Another consideration perhaps would be the unrest this would cause if protests of this nature were allowed. The anger in the hearts of many over their disrespect for our troops may very well boil over onto our streets. How to keep order and also allow freedom of speech has always been a problem for Britain.
I have learnt over time that anger and feeling of discontent do not go away they fester like a sore. Other means, when protest is closed down are found to show this anger. The real problem is the Governments foreign policies. Amongst moderate Muslims this will be merely talking of their feelings to each other, amongst extremists it will maybe go further.
A more important question perhaps, is to ask, are Britain and America prepared to chase terroists around the World. There are many unstable Countries out there and to me terrorism is spreading. The Yemen seems to be the new place for training terrorists. How many troops lives will it take to resolve all these problems. Obama to me is no better than Bush, this war on terror has become his war. His rhetoric has died as quickly as many in Afghanistan. The hope and the promise of change in foreign policy in America gone, as quickly as it came. We will look back on this period of our history and shake our heads and ask what was it all for, why did so many innocent people on both sides die. There was another way.
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Andrew,
listened to Today programme on number of troops available for Afghanistan. Please note that we have been occupying that country since 2001, which is an awful long time. It is nine years, what needs to be asked at Chilcot inquiry is what effect did the transfer of our soldiers to the failed Iraq expedition have on our policy in Afghanistan.
Soldiers who could have been training, mentoring, fighting could have been in Afghanistan. They must have been trained and armed for Iraq rather than 'working' in Afghanistan.
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Andrew,
so now the Home Secretary has banned several Islamic groups from Thursday, with the threat of ten years in jail. So now we ban organisations who drew attention to themselves, we tackle terrorism, please this is such an over-reaction.
In the meantime please note that people have been arrested for reading out the names of the names of the soldiers who died in Iraq. Maybe before Campbell gives his evidence, the inquiry ought to issue a list of all those soldiers who died in Iraq, both during the war, and then in the subsequent occupation. Maybe, also give a approximation as to how many civilians died during the civil war. Maybe also remind Campbell of the death of David Kelly, and Mr de Menezes. Some may think that there is no link, I think that there is!
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Andrew,
just so that people don't miss it Campbell will be giving his evidence to the Chilcot Inquiry between 10:00 and 13:00, I wonder if the BBC will be carrying the evidence in full on their News channel. Campbell just to remind people is described on the Inquiry website as:
Director of Communications and Strategy to the Prime Minister, 2001 – 2003.
Just so looking forward to this morning. I wonder though if we will actually learn anything.
What I would say is the inquiry really should be releasing all the documents which they have been given, or are awaiting. In particular we should see the Memorandum of Understanding betwee, Britain and Iraq, and have copies of the draft documents as well.
I want to know more about extra-ordinary rendition, enhanced interrogation techniques, and who knew about the problems of the activities of some of our soldiers, who seriously let the side down.
Where are the documents, but even better will be the evidence of Geoff Hoon and Jack Straw.
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Andrew,
these are the words quoted in Hansard on the 17th March 2003 of Jack Straw, they say it all:
'I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I say to the House that we need to think about where we 709 would be if we failed now to act. We know that this man has weapons of mass destruction. That sounds like a slightly abstract phrase, but what we are talking about is chemical weapons, biological weapons, viruses, bacilli and anthrax—10,000 litres of anthrax—that he has. We know that he has it, Dr. Blix points that out and he has failed to account for that. If we allow these weapons to remain in the possession of Saddam Hussein and do nothing about it, we cannot complain when the regime becomes further empowered to act in a tyrannical way with his neighbours and also if such weaponry finds its way into the hands of other rogue states or terrorist groups and then inflicts destruction very much nearer home.
Now I stress the words of Straw 'this man has weapons of mass destruction' no may, no equivocation. Can't wait for his evidence.
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Andrew,
Hoon quoted in Hansard 20th March 2003:
We are pursuing lawful military targets. Clearly, part of that effort is designed to disrupt the command and control of the regime. As I have said, and as the Prime Minister made clear yesterday, we are seeking to remove weapons of mass destruction from Iraq. However, with the expiry of the ultimatum to the regime and to Saddam Hussein, the means of achieving that will be through the removal of the regime. The removal of the regime will be the specific focus of our military operations.
Again, stress the final quote 'the removal of the regime will be the specific focus of our miltary operation'. Now under international law regime change is illegal, I can't believe that hoon actually said what he did. Another one I can't wait for Hoon to give his evidence to Chilcot.
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susan @ 253
"The real problem is the Government's foreign policies"
Mmm, the balance between the right to free speech and the need to protect the peace. Difficult. Case by case, I guess, and best to err on the side of the former.
But, big picture, your statement above is what it's all about. And, bigger picture, it's not just us in Iraq and Afghanistan, it's the Arab Israeli issue. Until that is resolved in a manner which returns some dignity to the Palestinians, there will be no end to aggressive, anti West, Islam. For anti West, read anti USA - their cheek to cheek dance to the death with Israel is at the heart of all this. We're just flapping around (to no great effect) on the margins.
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Andrew,
noticed that when asked Campbell said that recordings and minutes were not kept routinely, more details required. Also did state that Brown was involved, why is Brown not giving his evidence until after the election, whilst Hoon and Straw are giving their next week.
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#253 sc
The line between free speech/freedom to protest and incitement to violence/hatred is always going to be a difficult one to draw. Consequently there will always be cases where police actions or court decisions provoke unease or condemnation. It's inevitable - there is no clear-cut answer.
The guideline for marches or public gatherings lies in the words 'peaceful protest'. If a march or a gathering is agreed with the police beforehand, it is understood that there will be no violence, no incitement to violence, and no objectionable behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace. The prior agreement does not absolve the protesters from non-violent, non-provocative behaviour.
The Luton case was unusual, as superangry has pointed out, in that it was directed against, or was taking advantage of, soldiers who were merely doing their duty as imposed on them by those who take such decisions. It was, in a sense, a protest against 'protection of the realm', to coin a phrase. Another appropriate phrase might be 'hitting below the belt'. The posts on this blog have shown how opinions can vary, but I would guess that there would be majority support for giving out the message that it is unacceptable to exploit our soldiers in any way whatsoever.
Most people in this country support freedom of speech and freedom to protest, and their limits will vary with each person's individual opinion. Governments can only try to lay down imperfect boundaries and leave the rest to the police and the courts. Trial and error lead to changes in the laws, but I suspect there will never be a solution to please everyone.
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From the article now stating Islam4UK have been proscribed under anti-terror laws:
"We won't be using those names and those platforms which have been proscribed, but I can't stop being a Muslim, I can't stop propagating Islam, I can't stop praying, I can't stop calling for the Sharia."
From the above statement no-one could disagree that those that choose to follow the Islamic faith, or any faith for that matter, should be able to do so freely in the UK.
However I personally do not feel that the 'propagation of Islam' or the calling for Sharia law in the UK is acceptable. Quite frankly any form of proselytising is undesireable, whilst if you wish to live under Sharia law then it would be best to live in a state where those tenets hold sway, we already have our own well established legal systems here in the UK.
The modern UK aspires to be a multi-cultural, tolerant society, and yet there are such elements determined to force other cultural values over those that exist here already, rather than living amicably side by side. Far from integration that approach is more like invasion.
"That's something I must do, and ultimately I will pay whatever price I need to for my belief."
If you're a fundamentalist then there's another rallying call in that final statement. If anything this only adds fuel to those that are rather more radical on the right in our country and already pre-disposed to not being that tolerant towards other cultures, faiths and nationalities.
I agree that our foreign policy has not helped, however from the above statements made by members of this organisation I can't see how that would change their attitudes or stated aims for the UK, and probably the much vaunted 'Western World'.
It really is a worrying situation, what is the solution?
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Andrew,
Campbell seems to be referring to going down the UN route. I have problems here with President Chirac of France and the issue of the oil for food programme.
I think that if my memory serves me well it was because of the attitude of France that we were eventually 'forced' to take pre-emptive military action. I am very concerned as to how Campbell refers to Tony Blair, you will have to ask Tony Blair etc...genuine attempt to resolve this issue peacefully.
Post conflict Iraq, can't say when the planning started. But what about the British planning.
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Andrew,
I have a problem. Campbell is talking about 9/11 and Iraq. 9/11 was organised by bin Laden, a Saudi Arabian,organised from Afghanistan. There was never a link between Afghanistan, bin Laden, and Iraq. How does Sadam Hussain become involved in 9/11.
Mind you look at the pictures of the American soldiers after they took over the Sadam palaces, pictures of 9/11 everywhere. No different to the Tianeman Square massacre by China, lie to the military. They all would seem to have blood on their hands.
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252 SuperAngry
I hope I am not taking you out of context but I find the phrase "enemies of the state"
more than a bit chilling. More appropriate to the old Russia or current China.
Am I an enemy of the state because I want shut of this govt and no truck with its potential replacements ?
As to the 5th column, a wartime invention that most believe did not exist but on one night alone when there was a "push" on this invention the Home Guard shot 10 innocent people including a deaf man riding a bicycle who failed to halt when shouted upon to.
I repeat, I find just the appearance of these anti the Country they live in Islamic demonstrators offensive to my eye never mind what they are spouting but I also repeat stopping them spouting is the first step to stopping us.
253 Croftie
A very meaningful post. It brought to mind a conversation I had with an Irish friend many years ago about the IRA. His words are appropriate now, " If you can't achieve your rights by normal means what is left but the bomb and the bullet ?" Forcing people into clandestine underground activities to promote their cause is fraught with danger obvious to anyone except perhaps the politicians. Stiffling open debate spawns an eventual violent reaction from committed people whatever their gripe.
I am with Voltaire on this one.
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247 Saga
259 " "
A bit detached for you my friend? Almost fence sitting on this one ?
I feel a bit like Daniel on this but protection of freedom to speak out is not ours to be given up. It is our duty to protect it for those that come after.
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Andrew,
Chilcot is on a break. We must see the notes which Blair wrote to Bush, I am not inetrested in the tenure of the notes, the notes must be published.
I have long thought that why give important speeches abroad, which will not be widely reported in detail back in the UK, un less the only reason is that you don't want them widely reported. It comes down to a politician saying one thing to one audience, and a totally different thing to another audience, and just hope that nobody like me is trying to keep track of what is being said by somebody to whom, and when.
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Re :265
Im sorry xtun but you miss the point. There is a huge difference between wanting a change in the Government and wanting to overthrow the very foundations that the country is built on.
If these people held placards saying "Go to hell Brown/ Blair/ Cameron/ Hague" etc etc Fine
They are not they want to overthrow Freedom itself and that is something far more dangerous. At that point they have become enemies of the state (sinister or not)
Freedom has always had limits and always will. For instance would we say a murderer is allowed to do so because they have Freedom of Expression?
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#267
I have noted that the first question after the break refers to 'the notes' which Blair sent to Bush, which apparently the inquiry team have not seen. According to Campbell there were both frank and instructive, they must be published in their entirety, before Blair gives 'evidence'.
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#262 scot
I agree with your views on this.
Many politicians, and others, are fond of repeatedly pointing out how Britain has been a multi-cultural society for centuries, welcoming immigrants of all sorts of nationalities. That's quite true, but the secret lies in the fact that these immigrants, although in many cases maintaining their own beliefs and cultural practices, respected the laws, beliefs and culture of the host country and kept a low profile. They integrated fully in terms of work, recreation, sport and so on, but followed their own practices at home and sometimes in their local communities. Everyone knows of areas in towns and cities where the inhabitants are mainly Jews, or Italians, or Poles, or Chinese, etc, who have lived there peacefully for years without any problems.
The difference today lies solely with the relatively recent influx of those Muslims (admittedly a minority) whose beliefs make them dedicated to imposing their religion, practices and laws on everyone else. It's a dangerous situation with no easy solution. But, basically, it cannot continue to be tolerated, much as our history suggests that tolerance is a fundamental part of our culture.
If the peaceful majority of Muslims cannot, or will not, act to curb the extremists and rabble-rousers, the government needs to act before the BNP gain significant ground on the back of this dilemma.
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Andrew,
i'm sure it actually means very much but people ought to watch the Campbell evidence as well as listen! It is amazing the number of times he touches his nose, amazing.
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Andrew,
we must never ever used the term 'sexed up' with regard to the 'dodgy dossier', the term is beefed up, so this is not as exciting as being sexed up, these things are beefed up, get a grip, and stop scratching your noses.
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This one looks right for the DP treatment
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8453677.stm
Does it mean that where the general public don't report crime "because it is a waste of time to tell the police" that those areas will be included in these pilots?
Is it not also a rather troubling statement that the police don't already know to patrol more frequently those areas where problems occur, or is it another deeper problem pointing at management allocation of resources and policing of the community?
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Scot and mike-jay
Both of your posts left me with more questions than answers.
Often when someone comes to me with a problem to solve, I take the time to close my eyes and imagine myself in their shoes. This helps me have empathy for the others difficulty and thus come to a conclusion.
As you say over the years in Britain, we have accepted people from different Countries and have become a multi- cultural society. It is easy, I feel to identify with certain cultures because by their nature they may be similar to your own. In matters of religion and dress and so on, there will be a close association. Therefore it is not difficult for these people to integrate and become part of the society.
However there comes the other side of the coin where there is no close association, particularly in religion. How would I therefore feel if the Country of my birth was being invaded without perceived just cause and you believe that a war has started between your religion and theirs. This fundamentally is at the bottom of this problem. If it were not, why are moderate muslims not doing anything about extremists if they have settled happily into this Country. Then the question is how do they make their unhappiness with this problem known. A them and us situation develops and whilst the moderates may not agree with the extremists actions, they will do nothing about it either. Thus the problem stays with no solution and grows.
It then comes that Government feels it must act. They impose a ban on certain organisations and stop protests of a certain nature. This would seem on the face of it the right thing to do. However have we not tried this before with the IRA and failed. Many innocent people died for nothing in Ireland and peace only gained at a very high price with lack of moral justice in my opinion. Its a very unsteady peace at that.
You see, maybe if you intend to be a multi-cultural nation you must be sure your foreign policy reflects the needs of all citizens. It is no use using the argument 'Oh well it is our Country and they must integrate'. Wanting something does not make it happen unfortunately. We now have the situation where within Britain we have people who believe they are at war with the West, which is trying to suppress their religion and way of life. This will lead to further problems as time goes on. There is no solution really, the dye is cast.
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I have no desire to offend or provoke Muslims, or to persuade them to become Christians, or to ban their religion, or deny them a political voice. These are all aims of Choudary's group, so I'm not going to worry if we're going against the word of some long deceased Frenchman. He's not the guiding light of their movement and he's irrelevant to our democracy.
How many anti-Islam protests and parades have been sanctioned outside mosques and would you seriously believe that any would be allowed ? The greater damage is that taking no action makes it appear that minorities can provoke a riot whenever they wish to push their agenda. I wouldn't tolerate anyone yelling abuse in my face, and that's not what protests are about.
The man has to live in his melodramtic bubble of torment and oppression as no one pays him any attention otherwise. He would seek to raise tensions against Muslims, and it is for the greater good of all that his ravings and incitements are curtailed. There is no reason for a democracy not to act in an authoritarion manner for the good of all, and it's not uncommon. The Danish police quickly brough their batons into contact with the heads of accredited delegates at the Copenhaen talks when they became restive at not being allowed in to the conference. It's not so long ago that the armed militia were called on to the streets of our towns to handle protests.
There's so much Mr Choudary doesn't understand about democracy. If for no other reason than that he was purposely trying to provoke support for BNP and other more extreme organisations, then proscribing his group is correct. It won't stop him I'm sure, but it'll make him have to work harder.
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#274 sc
There is no similarity or reasonable comparison between the Irish and the extreme Muslim questions. The IRA were not seeking to impose their religion, their laws or their customs on Britain. Their demands related purely to their own country and the way certain sections of their community were treated. Admittedly they also wanted a united Ireland, but eventually a compromise solution was found, which is still in its infancy and is not yet bound to succeed.
The extremist Muslims came to Britain as immigrants ostensibly seeking sanctuary or a better way of life. They have no moral right to demand their own laws or customs that run counter to British laws and culture.
By all means try to put yourself in their position and imagine their feelings. But somehow I don't think you'll succeed in justifying their actions by this procedure. You're too reasonable.
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Re :270
I agree with you mike-jay this is a very dangerous situation. Tolerance is one thing and appeasement is another. For far to long Governments in this country have kept quiet about crackpot extremists like these individuals.
No matter how tolerant people are in this country they will not sit back forever and put up with the exploits of people like this who pose a threat to it. The danger is if Government cant and wont act others may take matters into their own hands.
Its time they got tough. If that offends some so be it.
The truth is, all might be free if they valued freedom, and defended it as they ought. If therefore a people will not be free; if they have not virtue enough to maintain their liberty against a presumptuous invader, they deserve no pity, and are to be treated with contempt and ignominy. -Samuel Adams
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Andrew,
what I try to do is think sometimes that I am not who I am. Accordingly, let me go back to the 'invasion' by America by european states, much to the detriment of the native Americans.
Slowly, we invaded their 'country', slowly but slowly we have more or less extinguished all of their customs, and beliefs. What the Spanish and other colonists did in South America ranks with anything that the Nazis did in Europe during the holocaust.
Now I am in no way saying that we should fear any immigrant to this country. Just go back to the times of the civilization in Greece, where it was really based on City states. There has to be philosophical discussion as to who we 'accept' or deny entry to our space. History os littered with atrocities being done to others on the basis that some people are 'different'. They are not, we are all just human beings. Although sentient human beings, but I do not think that it puts us at the top of the tree, we seem to have lost more than we have gained over the centuries, maybe we are not so enlightened after all.
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mike-jay 276
Thats, not what I am saying really. I am not seeking to justify their actions, only explore the reasons which lie behind what is happening. What I am saying is, how the Muslims see this issue is not of course the same way as we see it. They believe rightly or wrongly that they are in a war against the West. The question then is who began this problem and what do you do about it.
There will never be a meeting on minds on this issue, no matter how much you ban. Just as there was no meeting of minds in Ireland and really there still isnt. The problem is there, if you start to come down hard on these people you will alienate even more muslims. We have seen it all before. If we continue as we are then the chances of the BNP growing are very possible.
The Government made the problem and now there is no solution.
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#279 Susan-Croft
What does proselytsing and the implementation of Sharia law have to do with the UK's foreign policy for better or ill?
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Just an interesting item I have found relating to the Luton Muslim demo. On the day only anti protesters were arrested, one for throwing bacon at them. It appears taking legal affront to the Muslim demo was an afterthought.
The report also pointed out that nobody got arrested for throwing eggs at Nick Griffin and questioned this egg/bacon discrimination.
Despite there being poles twixt me and SuperAngry on this and several tortured souls inbetween, I think we are all united in condeming them and their actions but have different views on how it should be dealt with.
On seeking Sharia law, well lots of groups seek and demostrate for many things for many years, remember CND, but dont get them. So as far as I am concerned they can go on asking for their own law as long as they like and it will be rejected. This is wehre it gets difficult what will they do next ? And should preemptive action be taken to ensure there is no programme of violence ? And if so where do we go from there ?
Methinks we have a powderkeg asmoulder.
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ScotInNotts 280
As far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with anything I am saying.
However if you invite different cultures into Britain without making sure the rules of the Country will be adhered to this may be the result.
As far as the protest was concerned that was about our soldiers and the war not about Sharia law etc. I believe this episode has not gone down well in the Muslim community, from what I read.
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#278 catch
Times have gradually changed since invasion to acquire land and wealth was the order of the day. The last successful military invasion of England was 1066 by the Normans, but before that were the Romans, Vikings (Norwegian and Danish), Jutes, Angles and Saxons. In recent times, of course, the Nazis and Japanese and Italians in WW2 were following the old ways, and the USSR and China have also dabbled in various ways.
But 'globalisation' is now a reality that is having wider effects than Gordon's economic boasts, and military conquests are of a different nature - as we can see to our cost. However, agreed that we are all simply human beings and basically equal, that doesn't give certain immigrants any special rights to undermine, insult, oppose or take over the society into which they have been welcomed.
#279 sc
'Who began this problem and what do you do about it?'
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't remember any significant anti-western terrorism by Muslims before 9/11. That seems to me to have been the trigger. Why did it happen? There must have been a simmering resentment of western society, particularly of the USA. The Israel/Palestine problem was probably also a factor. Was antagonism widespread or confined to small numbers of extremists? Evidence from Britain suggests that most Muslims are peaceful and condemn the extremists. But the religion-driven hatred of western liberalism is there and, as you say, little can be done about it.
But we can take action in our own country to protect our society and discourage extremism in any form. That is about all we can do, and success or failure will depend on both government actions and the attitudes of the people. Keep your fingers crossed.
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xTunbridge 281
Exactly my point, where do we go now. There is no solution to this.
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Hello Andrew and all at the Daily Politics;
My feelings about the Muslim Radicals, they are dangerously lacking in security and stability, being a precariously dominant minority is a very difficult position for human nature to cope with.
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The 2005 election gave Labour 355 MPs over Conservative’s 197 and an overall Parliamentary majority of 66. But this hides exactly the advantages in our electoral system which is locking in Labour. First, Labour’s dispersion of voters is such that they can at merely 36% of the votes still win an election – as in 2005. Never before in the history of British elections has a party won with such a low percentage of votes. Never in the history of British elections has a party had just enough of its voters spread efficiently so that with such a low spread of voters it can win enough seats.
To understand this – think of it this way; we have a system whereby if you win a seat by 10,000 votes, you win it just as much as if you won by 1 vote. Tory voters tend to give themselves thumping large majorities and so in a way to say the Conservatives have a poll lead is irrelevant because you are only counting a lot of people in constituencies you’ve already won not people in ones where you need to win from Labour. Labour tend to have lower majorities, but more of them – it’s just the way their vote is spread and so they tend to win more seats per voter.
So pronounced is Labour’s advantage that in 2005 more people actually voted Conservative than Labour in England– but the Conservatives won 92 fewer seats than Labour within England (285 to 193). Indeed the Conservatives received 60,000 more votes than Labour in England. And Scotland and Wales are not exactly Tory country at the best of times.
Put another way Labour can get 55% of the seats with only 36% of the votes cast. Whereas everyone else combined with 64% of the votes can only manage 45% of the seats – because everyone else’s votes are spread so inefficiently ie they are concentrated in fewer seats.
To reiterate this ‘spread’ argument - the Tories with just 3% fewer votes than Labour (33% to Labour’s 36%) got only 30% of the seats against Labour’s 55% in 2005. Still could be worse – you could be Lib Dem – with 2/3rds as many votes as Labour they only got 1/5 as many seats as Labour.
Try explaining the argument of ‘wasted Liberal’ vote to the voter on the doorstep. They used to form governments once you know. But that’s the problem with our system, it locks in voter concentration disadvantage and the Tories may want to visit proportional representation again.
Of course the bigger picture is that it’s not exactly a representative democracy when that happens. But it gets worse for democracy. There was an overall turnout of 61% in the 2005 election. But that means more people decided not to vote than voted for Labour.
Indeed Labour’s share of the total possible electorate was 22% - enough for a mandate to govern! 22%! At least in Iran it’s 99% for the winning party.
So if the Tories want to win what’s the answer? Force Labour to go to the IMF – twice before May may do it. Ship swathes of Tories from very safe seats to marginals? Go for the issues seems the best hope – get into the heart of Labour territory of health, education and jobs. And what about Labour to win? Seems the system is so stacked in their favour, they’ve just got to hope the Tories don’t strike into the heart of Labour policy.
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#282 Susan-Croft
'As far as the protest was concerned that was about our soldiers and the war not about Sharia law etc.'
True, however I have already quoted Anjem Choudary's response in my #262
"We won't be using those names and those platforms which have been proscribed, but I can't stop being a Muslim, I can't stop propagating Islam, I can't stop praying, I can't stop calling for the Sharia."
"That's something I must do, and ultimately I will pay whatever price I need to for my belief."
Therefore proselytising and Shaira law are concerns in what you have been saying.
I finished my #262 with the question you went on to pose:
It really is a worrying situation, what is the solution?
Tolerance can only last so far so long until it becomes appeasement, and in this case there really is no motivation in this country to do the latter and it would seem a gradual decline for the former.
Either the community at large takes responsibilty for those with extreme values or the state has to legislate and exert control.
I share xTunbridge's worries that this could be the start of a slippery slope in curtailing free speech and protest, however in this case I think the action has been merited. In my opinion it such action should be assessed on a case by case basis.
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xtun @ 266
Fence sitting? Yes, I guess I am. Your "to the barricades" attitude to the defence of free speech (pretty much regardless of content) is something I find quite stirring and if pushed, I'd jump off the fence in your direction - well if pushed I wouldn't have to jump, I suppose, but you know what I mean. So yes, I think you're on the right side of the argument. I certainly think we have to watch this creeping Islamophobia. Would the same Law have been enforced against another similar demo (with similar behaviour) where the protesters were NOT radical Muslims? - that's what I'd like to know. The SAME Law, I mean, not a different one such as Incitement To Racial Hatred. For myself, however, I'm conscious of being the person who argued long and hard (on here and elsewhere) for the Banning of the BNP, so my Libertarian credentials are by no means pristine
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mike @ 283
"The Israel/Palestine problem was probably also a factor"
The main factor, I'd say - if that isn't solved, there will be no end to all of this. And it won't be solved as long as America remains wedded to its "Israel, right or wrong" approach.
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- 283 Mike-Jay
Actually, the last successful invasion it was 1688. When a foreign king William invaded England to on a pre-emptive attack on this country to stop it coming under French influence in the future clash of arms. According, to Michael Portillo's Things We forgot to Remember an excellent 1/2 hour show on Radio 4. Rasied several points. Well worth listening to if you get the chance.
Let us not forget - Hnery VII deposing the last Plantagent king, Richard III, probably under some dodgy dossier. :-) Also king Louis the first, who was given the crown by the majority of Barons, because King John was so abysmal. Louis had been offered the throne by the Barons, because of John's poor performance and losing most of the Barons French possessions. Admittedly, he was never crowned king and only because John died. Leaving the Barons thinking they can manipulate an infant king easier than having Louis on their door step.
Also let us not forget Henry IV and his deposing of the righful King Richard II, coming from overseas. Richard even let him off once. Terry Jones suggests that Chaucer was 'done in' by Henry IV henchmen for being a loyal Richard supporter (and possibly a reason he didn't finish the Canterbury Tales).
And finally, the Scottish invasion of the north (Bishops War) in the later 1630s/early 40s that lit the fuse to the English Civil Wars and Charles II's martyrdom.
Afraid we have forgotten to remember these things.
History is a problem that we can not unpick easily as we have seen in the Balkans and to an extent in Iraq.
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tun @ 281
"So as far as I am concerned they can go on asking for their own law as long as they like and it will be rejected"
Key point. Only two ways to achieve power in the UK.
(1) The democratic process.
(2) Violent revolution.
Number One, you deal with by making sure that political parties whose views are against our fundamental values are not allowed to stand in Elections - that's why I support banning of the BNP (as a political party) and that's why I'd equally support the banning of any Muslim Extremist Party which proposed second class treatment for women, for example, or the introduction of Sharia Law.
Number Two, we just need to uphold the Laws we have - including the very important ones dealing with incitmement to racial or religious hatred. Applies to whoever is doing the inciting.
There's no need for "special treatment" (adverse or favourable) for the BNP, or for Muslim extremists, or for anybody else. Important to be consistent.
So, to summarise:
- no political parties with policies outside our tolerance level.
- proscribe any organisation if it incites violence and racial/religious hatred.
- apply the Law equally, regardless of race, creed or religion.
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#290 surrey
I'm sure you are correct in your historic summary - my knowledge of history is sketchy, at best. However, I did refer to a 'military invasion', meaning a full scale conquest of this country by foreign invaders. This would exclude internal civil wars, high level skulduggery, partial military successes, and bloodless handovers.
Where does that leave us?
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#289 saga
I wouldn't totally disagree, but I cannot believe that a solution to the Israel/Palestine problem would put an end to anti-western terrorism by Islamic extremists. I suspect that this I/P problem has been exaggerated as a prime factor in explaining global terrorism.
Don't you think that if it was such an obvious solution, Obama and his international allies would be putting much more effort into sorting it out?
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One quarter of growth after multiple quarters of decline does not end a recession. Only governments and bankers do that kind of math. minus seven, plus one , does not equal plus one.
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SurreyABC 290
Far be it for me to disagree with M. Portillo but the last time England actually was conquered as such was by William the conqueror in 1066 as Mike says.
The king you speak of in 1688 was William of orange. The reason he became king of England was that he had married Mary who after her father the Duke of York, was the heir to the throne of England. At this time Charles II was on the throne and died without an heir. This meant that James Duke of York became King as James II. England at the time was a protestant Country and James had married a catholic Mary of Modena and had become a catholic himself. James was a particularly bad king and as he was now openly a Catholic the English looked to William of Orange and James daughter, Mary to come to England as joint rulers. James fled and his daughter and her husband became William III and Mary II.
The king you speak of who was beheaded at the time of the civil War and Cromwell was in fact Charles I.
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Slight change to my 291:
As we were except, thinking a bit more about it, I can't see the practical point in banning ("proscribing") an organisation unless it's a Political Party - they could just change their name, for example, couldn't they? No, the focus should be on simply upholding the Laws we have.
We can therefore simplify the whole thing as follows:
(1) No political parties outside our tolerance zone (e.g. the BNP).
(2) Uphold the Law without reference to race, creed, religion.
And again to stress, (1) would include any Muslim Extremist Party advocating things like second class treatment for women or the introduction of Sharia Law to the UK.
Yes, I reckon I'm happy with that now.
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mike @ 293
I don't agree with you that the importance (as fuel for Islamic anti Western terrorism) of the Palestinian issue has been exaggerated, I think it's the Heart of the Matter.
But I DO agree with you that there aren't any obvious solutions. America's deeply pro Israel stance is, in my view, a major stumbling block. Until that changes I don't see much hope for progress - we're about containment only. And as regards containment, I suspect that our own foreign policy (slavishly following the US as we are prone to do) doesn't help. Neither does getting too heavy handed with Muslim extremism here at home.
As I say in 291/296, I feel we should concentrate on upholding our Laws (without fear or favour) governing the behaviour of individuals - plus the outlawing of political parties with constitutions/policies which lie outside what we as a Western liberal democracy find acceptable.
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Re :296
It may have escaped your notice saga but as far as I am aware there is no Muslim Extremist Party in this country.
This is probably becasue they know they would not stand any chance of getting elected. What there are however are Islamic extremists.
I am not sure therefore how you equate elected representatives such as the BNP with these people.
For the uneducated like me could you please explain?
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super A @ 298
Yep.
I'm saying that if a Muslim Extremist organisation (putting forward the policies I gave as an example) were to set up as a Political Party in the UK ... wanting to put up candidates in Elections ... wanting to make a pitch for power through our democratic process ... then we should not allow that.
And exactly the same goes for any other Political Party (e.g. the BNP) with policies and core values which lie "beyond the pale" for a liberal western democracy such as ours. We shouldn't allow it.
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Re :299
Well I am no expert on the BNP saga or their policies. However I dont recall any reference from them to the overthrow of Freedom in this country unlike these Islamic extremists.
Can the two things really be equated in this way?
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I disagree with your comments Susan and Mike, but I will defend them to the death (to paraphase, Voltaire :-) ).
History is quagmire and we can get bogged down in it. A Dutch army landed in Devon marched on the capital and after some fighting (admittedly no major battles), this foreign army with some of the country's turncoats (e.g. John Churchill et all) then set about claiming the right to rule the country.
The Dutch army occupied London and did a pride purge - stopping any internal dissent from the populace who might have opposed this 'regime change'. There were still plenty of James' supporters in the country.
James did run away because he had made a hash of the situation. I think he escaped was caught and then brought back, but was let go as W & M could be seen to be killing off Mary;s father. Earlier in James' regin, the Duke of Monmouth tried the same tactic, but failed and William learn from that. William then used England as financial leverage to support his future wars with Louis XIV.
James had 'vacated' the throne not necessarily voluntarily and had a go at reclaiming the crown later in Ireland and later his children did as well. An example of overturning the succession. James was a good commander and had led the fleet in victories against the Dutch in the earlier wars. Just did learn from his brother Charles, who was as canny as his grandfather - James VI of Scotland and I of England (Ireland and lets not forget France too - as crown only gave that claim up after the American War of Independence).
I suppose another example of a second in command, proving that he is not up to the job?
Good pub quiz question about Henry IX - who was Bonnie Prince Charlie's brother survived him and claimed to be Henry IX. Unfortunately for the Stuart cause, he was Cardinal, so did not have any children who claim right of succession.
William the Conqueror was from viking stock as much as half of England was. Harold did see off his brother and his ally at Stamford Bridge in Yorkshire and nearly pulled off defeating William. Another dubious claim there as well by William. A small band of adventurers killing off a lot of England's ruling families and taking over.
History is always written by the winners and will create the problems for the next generation of politicians.
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Mike/Saga various
Whilst the US appears to unequivocally support Israel the resentment against the west will grow. Somehow it needs to made clear that the US support is conditional and that Israel's right to defend itself has to respect the rights of its neighbours.
I still have hope that Obama will find a way to convey his disapproval when appropriate, although he is no doubt subject to considerable pressures within the US, but it is fundamental to moving the issue forward.
Only the US has sufficient clout to influence Israel but whether they have the will is a different matter.
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sa @ 3C
They're anything but the same, but where I'm equating is that they both hold core values which are intolerable to a western liberal democracy such as the UK. In the BNP's case it's racism, and with the Muslim Extremists it's the things you've highlighted - and to which I'd add the reduction of women to second class citizen status.
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Muslims and Christians have been at loggerheads and worse for centuries. Over the last century an unwritten, tacit whatever understanding has arisen, certainly it was demonstrably operational that the Muslims did their thing in "their" countries and the Christians plus agnostics, gays, pagans and all the rest got on with life in the liberal mainly Western countries.
With no formal organisation just a natural progression of history and location this worked until the West decided to invade Muslim Countries.
Where are we now ? Why ?
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surryABC
Well you quite entitled to defend anything to the death which is not on record. Our history is a matter of record.
William the Conqueror was a Norman not a viking, he was born in Falaise in Normandy. He was the illegitimate son of Robert I Duke of Normandy. When Edward the Confessor died there were three claims to the English throne Harald III of Normandy, Harold Godwinson and william the Conqueror. At the time of the Norman invasion by William, Harold who had become king, had just defeated Harald in a battle when he had to match to fight William the Conqueror. William the Conqueror won and set about making England very Norman with churches and laws. His son then came to the throne as William II.
William the Conqueror was the last time we were conquered by outside forces with very little claim to the throne. William of Orange was descended from the English throne and had a very good claim through first his mother Mary who was Charles II sister and daughter of Charles I, and his wife Mary who became joint ruler with him. He was also invited to come to England to take the throne.
James II was a very poor ruler and was deeply unpopular, it is true to say that in his youth he was a good commander, however at the time of William of orange this was long behind him. He had also become a catholic in a protestant Country. The Monmouth rebellion during his reign was in fact by the Duke of Monmouth who claimed the throne, as he was the illegitmate son of Charles II and believed his mother had in fact married Charles II. This rebellion was soon put down.
William of Orange landed in England in 1688, it turned out that the public was so dissatisfied with James II that his army and navy would not fight for him. James lost his nerve he would not try to take command of the army. James then fled abroad. He was caught once trying to board a ship and was sent back to London, but William allowed him to go again. James II did attempt to claim his throne back when he raised a catholic army in Ireland and had French support but lost the battle of Boyne to William through his own incompetence. James is often seen in history as a extremely foolish and silly man. By contrast William was an extremely wise king and protestant which was necessary to England.
The removal of James II, the last Scottish Kings, gave rise to the pretenders the last was defeated in 1746 at Culloden. Jacobitism backed by French money, as it is called caused some problems but not many. It ended with prince Charles Edward who retired to France. His younger brother a Cardinal at the papal court assumed the none title of Henry IX. The Stuart dynasty was dead.
John Churchill whom you mention was a very good commander he became Earl of Marlborough and commander-in-chief under William. He is much more associated with the reign of Queen Anne as his wife Sarah Churchill was Annes best friend. Churchill was raised to a Dukedom during Annes reign. At this time England was engaged in the Grand Alliance against France Churchill won victories and planned successful campaigns. Most notable is Blenheim. John Churchill is seen in history as a great commander.
There is no changing history I am afraid.
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Andrew,
with regard to the Campbell evidence to Chilcot yesterday we know of the 'notes' written by Blair to Bush. There is a problem. General Richards said in interviews over the week-end that we should not withdraw because of promises made to the Afghan people. It would appear that Blair has been making similar promises to Bush, just as it would appear that he had made 'promises' to Brown.
The question is that if Blair had lost the vote in the commons, and we must assume that Brown would have taken over earlier than he did, then would Brown have had to agree to the 'promises' which Blair had been making. Did Brown know in any way about these 'promises', would he have followed the same detested policy.
A very close family member of mine has an injunction on him by the High Court, taken out by the Ministry of Defence. One of his issues was that he signed up to defend Queen and Country, not for American Foreign Policy. It would appear from what has been said about the Campbell evidence that Blair did follow American Foreign Policy. The injunction on my close family member is pathetic, he opened the box, for that he will never be forgiven, so when you read from the experts, and the retired soldiers and officers, just understand that they did not have the courage to disobey orders.
I have long thought that it was surprising that in his book General Sir Mike Jackson revealed that he sought and obtained legal advice before accepting his orders in respect of Iraq. I think that the legal advice might well prove to be wrong.
The war in Iraq was an act of aggression, for the purpose of regime change, there must be prosecutions, this is not good enough. The conservatives, even if they agreed to the war they were misled in parliament, they could go to the election agreeing that there must be prosecutions, as should the lib dems who have history on their side.
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Andrew,
we often see reports of deaths of 'our' people to IED, or other such devices. The reports now coming from Iran cause me concern for example anybody got anything to say on this death announced today :
Mohammadi was blown up outside his home in an smart northern suburb of Tehran by a remote-control bomb that had been attached to a motorcycle parked on the street. As his stunned neighbours cleared up the rubble they struggled to understand why a little-known academic would have fallen victim to such a highly professional assassination'.
He was a nuclear particle physicist. Insurgency is working both ways. The rhunes are not looking good, the drums of war are beating faster, and harder.
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Andrew,
I think that it is now accepted that America has a $400 million budget to destabalize the Iranian Islamic Republic. I think that Israel has a history of 'executing' people, without trial, who may be a threat to their security. They have even imprisoned one of their own people imprisoned because he disclosed details of their nuclear weapons programme. I sincerely hope that the murder of Mohammadi was not state sponsored terrorism.
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Good morning each & Andrew.
Where oh where to begin?
I have been pondering the possibilities of befriending The Peopls Rebulic Of Iran. A sort of 'twinning'. [it came to me that we could 'store' a war-head or two there-an attempt to strike some sort of balance]
All in all this is still a good time to attempt to break the inward spiral of conflict.
International affairs still seem to me to be enacted as with playground bullies. Much of our Government's standing relies upon thinking it's written as pronounced:sick-o-France-eh?
I read that the Dollar may not be the currency of choice for much longer, so doubtless the UK shall swap burgers for spring-rolls in the near future.
Freedom of Speech, the right to trial by Jury and the insistance that Police can do as they please, where they please and when they please. Could we be a Be-more-crass-eh and not a Democracy?
History IS bunk!
What of the future? Bunker?
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#297 saga
If the Israel/Palestine problem is the 'Heart of the Matter', why don't we hear Islamic extremists and their organisations repeatedly demanding a solution to allow them to abandon terrorism? I can't remember the last time any of them mentioned it - it just doesn't seem to appear very high on their agenda. I suspect that it has become a fall-back excuse rather than a primary factor in anti-western terrorism.
#305 sc
An excellent summary. Thanks. Hope you're around every time a knotty history question arises - it's quicker than rooting through text books.
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Andrew,
quite interesting evidence being given about something called the 'Stabilisation Unit'. This is impacting on Afghanistan, and Zimbabwe, and other places. Everything will be done to keep people safe. Civilian staff security, I think this means using civilian contractors.
It is like the privatization of the military in America. Close protection bodyguards. Delegation of site visits. People really should be listening to this evidence, it is much more instructive than any evidence given by Campbell. Work in progress, it is very expensive staff.
This is what Karzai means when he talks about our 'corruption'. The people need protecting, and I wonder if there are any former generals who now work in the industry of supplying these private contractors.
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Andrew,
we have just had the release of the captured contractor, who is now being debriefed at a secret location. Three of his 'bodyguards' have been murdered, one is presumed murdered. I am a little bit of a conspiracy theorist. I wonder if the release of the Moores was any way connected to the evidence now being given by the DFID official.
How much is actually being paid on a daily rate to these contractors, both the direct employee, and the bodyguards charged with protecting them.
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I see the Dutch needed only one inquiry to reach some obvious conclusions over the Iraq invasion whereas we're on our 4th(?).
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I watched the show and the arguments over bank bonuses.
The banks - same old, same old arguments. Bankers have to be paid gross bonuses come what may. I see no difference between them and inefficient nationalised industry. What would the share price be without government funding ? They aren't producing any wealth or profit at the moment that isn't a direct result of the gazillions of pounds invested by us to rescue them from their own stupidity - for which they grossly rewarded themselves. Bonuses should be paid to those who put the money into the failed banks. They would seek to apply the rule of 'heads I win tails you lose', but I think they should prove their worth to the economy, rather than act as a government funded trust fund set up to support and isolate bankers from the economic turmoil they create.
Let them admit their failure and incompetence first, before they start trying to grab our cash. They'd be unemployed without our money, so they should be grovelling to us in thanks for our tolerance.
The departure of bankers from our shores would be a welcome state of affairs, so whatever we're doing that appears to be bringing about such threats should be pursued with greater vigour.
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Andrew,
may i congratulate Nick Clegg for reading your blog. It is becoming more obvious every day that Brown must be called to give his 'evidence' to the Chilcot inquiry before any general election.
It is apparent from his answer to parliament during PMQs that all the documents are not going to be published, either because of their effect on national security, that old red herring, and international relations, surely not with our wonderful American allies.
Chilcot must change the order of attendees. Jack Straw will be giving his evidence, Geoff Hoon will be giving his evidence. Brown must give his evidence.
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#314 GomerPyle.
Hear, hear! 100%
#315 C22.
Who knows how the up coming evidence may change the running order.
Although love of Party might still save Gordon from Hoon.
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Hain, was and is craven coward!
From, "I did not dig up the turf." Up to, "From what I have 'seen' I am very affraid." Said in the run-up to the Iraq massacre.
His life-motto should run something like this, "I am not a yes man, when the boss says no, I say no."
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Andrew, and team,
who would have thought that after all this time we are still talking about Iraq?
It is because no matter how much some of the politicians twist and turn, the war in Iraq was illegal, was a war of aggression, was conducted for the purpose of regime change, that the evidence being given to Chilcot this morning about planning for after the war was appalling. The reason why is obvious, they could not plan for a war, or its aftermath, because that would show that the war was planned, which it was, but wasn't. A classic catch 22.
We still have the Baha Mousa inquiry taking place, we have confirmation about extra-ordinary rendition, about enhanced interrogation techniques, about the use of hired contractors, Blackwater, to act as para-military forces, where their cases have been dropped in the American courts.
Your Daily Politics was exceptional today, Brown must be called by Chilcot to give his 'evidence' before the election, Hoon and Straw and Blair, why not Brown? What has he got to hide, the truth, whatever that may be. he signed the cheques, and he who pays the piper calls the tune, a good old Scottish saying.
Just a final point in view of some earlier comments made by me about the BBC, interesting question about putting Gaelic TV on Freeview, I told you they all read your blog, and comments.
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...deary, deary me, but it must be a slow news day.
His name is pronounced, Rum-poy!
Can commentators and unknown euro-Tories not keep their hands out of their 'jockies' in order to think clearly?
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Good on Andrew McKinlay (Lab) to not ask a planted question at PMQs, but instead a very pertinent one about a turbine delivered to a plant in Afghanistan to generate elctricity that has not yet been installed but at great human cost in the form of lives and injuries by the coalition forces. The US contractors have done very nicely out of this deal thank you very much. I can forsee an inquiry into International Aid spending in Afghanistan just over the horizon.
More billions squandered and for what? A mixture of incompetence and what Karzai refers to our corruption.
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#320
Totally agree with you on this one. This is the tip of the iceberg. Karzai is right, which is why Brown will buy his silence at the upcoming conference which he is heading. There must be an inquiry now into what has been going on in Afghanistan, before all the usual culprits retire to their homes in the country. There seems to be absolutely no control. The turbine delivery was nothing other than the usual PR stunt, we are in Afghanistan so that 'we can ensure that private contractors make loads of money at the expense of the lives of British soldiers'.
There must be an inquiry, what has happened in Iraq is that scarce resources were lost in Afghanistan, because energy was transferred to Iraq. Look how many Britsish lives were actually lost in Afghanistan before the illegal war in Iraq. Did nobody else notice that usually Brown refutes allegations about the illegality of the Iraq war, this time when Clegg said it, no denial from the PM, therefore he must now have come to view, shared by just about the whole population, that no matter how you look at it, the War was illegal. Prosecutions please.
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Has it really come down to this? British ministers are now being put in their place by Iraqi politicians. The FCO minister Ivan Lewis urged Iraqi voters to judge their politicians in an article in a local paper, on better public services, fixed roads and transport systems and providing new jobs ie the usual sanctimonious New Lab pap. Omitting all references to endemic corruption of course - as one does.
Ayad Aldin who has survived 6 assassination attempts and campaigns for transparency in government retorted with:
"Corruption within the government must be the major issue on which the forthcoming election is fought. It is the corruption that prevents these services from being implemented as the money to fund them is siphoned off by Maliki’s government ministers. We will not stand for this anymore and promise tackle corruption head on so that all Iraqis can benefit from a fair and transparent administration which will benefit all the people of Iraq."
From Guido Fawkes website:
http://order-order.com/2010/01/13/even-the-iraqis-are-laughing-at-labour/#comments
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Re :303
I understand the point you are making saga. As vile as racism is though it is nothing compared to what this group of people want to promote in this country.
Anyone who wants to know exactly what these people are about need only watch the Leader for Islam4UK on Newsnight last night. He was challenged repeatedly by the head of the Quillam Foundation as to whether under the Caliphate he wants Quillams leader would be "put to death"
He repeatedly refused to answer.
No my friend saga I am afraid I cannot agree that in any way the BNP can possibly be equated with these Muslim Extremists. These people pose a threat to this country beyond anything we have seen for many years.
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#323 SuperAngry.
These people, as you put it, may make threats but I doubt very much that they pose any actual threat.
I would go as far as to say that they may be of some benefit.
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At PMQs, Clegg is outshining Cameron again and again. Today's challenge to Brown was a prime example. It should attract massive support to force the current PM to reveal to Chilcot and the electorate his involvement in Iraq before the general election. Otherwise how can voters with doubts about that invasion make a rational voting decision?
Cameron's strategy of personal attacks on Brown has run its useful course and is in rebound mode. He needs to focus on more substantial policy questions.
One thing that needs clarification is the way that Labour intend to halve the deficit in 4 years. Treasury spokesmen persistently claim that it was all laid out in detail in the PBR. They appear to be saying that the 'policy' consists of calculating treasury income over the 4 years (making assumptions about growth, inflation, unemployment, etc), subtracting the 50% payback they promised, and hey presto the answer tells them how much they can spend and hence the size of the cuts needed. No details, of course.
If this is in fact what they are saying, it's astonishing. Such a simplistic approach can have an infinite number of variations and be tailored to suit all sorts of unrealistic wishes.
It's not a policy - it's an aspiration. Maybe that's why Brown is claiming to lead a 'Party of Aspiration'.
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All Holds Barred; David Cameron at P M Question Time came over futile Not like a P M in waiting and can predict is dispensable an unimportant rival to our Great Leader P M Gordon Brown by the time the Tory Party wake up to the fact; we can't go on like this David Cameron will realise is not really needed.
But in the meantime will continue to campaign about the following :
I'll CUT OFF your Gas and Electricity
I'll CUT OFF your Water
I'll Cut OFF your N H S
I'll CUT OFF Gordon Brown
And lastly I'll CUT OFF my-self because I CANT' GO ON LIKE THIS.
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super A @ 323
Comparing between two Evils and saying which one I "prefer" is something I normally shy away from. But okay, I'll admit to you that I would rather live in a Britain run by the BNP than one run by the Taliban. That's speaking as a White Englishman. Best, however, not to get into that game ... I mean, who was worse? Shipman or Brady? ... and just agree that BOTH are unthinkably awful.
But when it comes to which one to worry about the most, here in the UK, there's a clear difference. Only one of them is a UK political party making a pitch for power through our democratic process. Only one of them, therefore, has even the remotest chance of gaining power via that mechanism. That's the BNP. I'd like to adjust their chances from remote to NIL. By banning them. Or not banning them, rather, by removing their political party status. So they can't field candidates.
This then puts the BNP in exactly the same boat as a potentially dangerous Muslim Extremist organisation. Their only route to power would be through violent revolution. Rather than "proscribing" such Organisations, I would seek to rely on the rigorous and fair minded enforcement of our existing Laws ... the Laws governing the behaviour of individuals ... to prevent such revolution. To prevent anything even approaching it. They will end up as seedy talking shops. Distasteful but tolerable.
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gp @ 314
Very good, Gomer. As long as you are Blogging on the Banks, I won't bother. And never have I felt so pleased to be surplus to requirements.
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Re :324
Tom I disagree profoundly with you. Whilst you are swaddled in your complacency these extremists are actively poisoning the minds of many young Muslims against everything this country is.
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# 328 - sagamix - as I used to work for one I feel qualified to comment, but I was only a lowly foot soldier, and I didn't benefit from bloated bonuses. I received the standard few hundred, as most others do, and was then supposedly 'bought in' to the system.
If we could back in time and interview the Sheriff of Nottingham or Vlad the Impaler they'd all have perfectly logical reasons as to why they're indispensable, though probably not in as great demand as the local drug dealer. I see on teletext that Obama's investigation into why the financial world collapsed has come up with one conclusion that it was down to banking innovation. Well - he did ask the bankers didn't he ? I'm surprised it wasn't put down to charitable donations and global warming.
Paying bonuses didn't stop banks running headlong into ruin before the crisis, and that seems to represent the clearest evidence that they only encourage risk taking and dubious practices. Going back to the same system is the quickest way to repeat the same mess. Having some self inflated 'bonus junkie' telling us that holding back on bonuses will lead to banking meltdown seems rather implausible. Perhaps we could name a wind turbine after each of them instead, and use their bonuses to build them, as they're so desperate to find a new junk investment on which to spend our money.
Why not make them pay for the regulation that their behaviour makes us undertake to attempt to prevent them trashing the economy again ? Football grounds pay for policing and it's the same principle.
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#329 SuperAngry.
I am unsure how or if the proscribing of an orgaisation will lead to the silencing of this fellow.
I am not, at this time, aware of the significance of the Q-Foundation, but I shall look them up.
However...
If this fellow continues to speak he shall, doubtless, be speaking to and be heard by the very ears you worry that he speaks to now.
The good that comes from the fact that he should be free to appear on Newsnight is plain to see; he is questioned by learned, passionate and respected people, his words are heard by all. If he can speak and be shown up for what he is and what he speaks of can be discussed openly.
#326 Champion.
"You are aweful, but I like you."
#325 mike-jay.
Yes Clegg did do well.
Aspiration, indeed. As with boom and bust so with breathing Gordon can only breathe in. [leastwise this side of the election]
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#331 P.S.
I looked them up.
I think I may know at least one of these stalwart folk, (having seen him before) although I did not see this particular Newsnight.
The screen here is blank, white. It is plain to see that it is so because I have typed all over it.
If you see somthing that you do not like the look of perhaps it only serves as emphasis to point-up this same fact and is not itself further proof that it's appearance is harmfull.
[often there is no the epithet handy]
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327. sagamix & Muslim thread
As an immediate physical threat to our country the Muslim extremists pose more of a threat. In a way their not being part of the political process makes them more dangerous in the short term. The BNP seek the cloak of respectability, for now. They may utilise other groups to do their more aggressive bidding but do not pose the same level of physical danger religious fanaticism can generate, IMO.
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Andrew,
surely Brown and others have been making a point that the problem does not come from religion, it comes from states, namely Afghanistan and Pakistan. Or have I missed something, that is the whole justification for our continued in Afghanistan.
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Re :331
"I am unsure how or if the proscribing of an orgaisation will lead to the silencing of this fellow."
You need to read your history. Catholics in this country were proscribed for many years and in some ways still are for instance a Catholic cannot sit on the throne.
And as someone who was christened Roman Catholic I have no hesitation in saying thank god our ancestors had the good sense to take the action they did.
Religious groupings or those with a particular view of it have never been allowed in this country to pose a threat to it. And they NEVER should.
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Hi Andrew and all at the Daily Politics
Nick Clegg, D O B: 7 1, 1967 Capricorn
Its very difficult to get close to a Capricorn. They are always enclosed within a stone wall, which is not to easy to breach. They are not to gergrious & outgoing, but their personality include determination and patience.
They have fierce ambitions which they pursue with a strong resolve. If you look at them casually, it may seem as if they prefer solitude to company. Now, look deeper, inside their heart. Though they will not show it, they want admiration as much as other people. Its just that they are to shy to express their feelings openly.
Capricorns don't know how to handle compliments. If and when they get any, they become to embarassed and may pass it of as a joke or ignore it altogether,
Show a Capricorn that you believe in their practical dreams and they will dream some more. Then, one day, they will achieve all of them and much more.
If you forget to play your part whether it be family or career, never forget that they can be a little bit strict and demand respect, discipline and compliance. Even though has respect for his family and colleagues they will walk out if they think they have made a mistake. If it ever happens, don't expect to be given a second chance. When something is over for a Capricorn, its over forever and they never look back.
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Hello Andrew and all at the Dail Politics
333
334
I think STAN is the problem, what do you think?
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Good morning each & Andrew.
#337
The problem is the loss of the Cold-War.
The western warmongers will do anything other than accept peacetime by going Cold Turkey.
What with the utter lack of anything else to do but 'war', politicians just fill their time however they can. If only they had the good of all in mind or even take some responsibility for the economy, but no. Far easier to send the children of others out to be killed and to keep the body count up.
History seems to be no place for the peace makers.
The only sign of good being done is the plain fact that Gordon is unable to think and smile at the same time and with the election on the cards I hope to see him smile all the more. For, generally what he thinks stinks.
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337. Champion
"I think STAN is the problem, what do you think?"
AfghaniSTAN? PakiSTAN? Happiness STAN? STAN Collymore? inSTANt gravy??
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...conSTANt craving?
PersiSTANt lies?
Lack of honeST ANalysis?
Falling STANdards?
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Andrew, a very good morning,
'I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me'.
Now I am of the opinion, I will not say that there is no doubt, that the above represents the oath of allegiance which our soldiers take when they join the military.
The problem which is not being addressed is that by any interpretation of what has been going on at the Chilcot Inquiry that we were at war in Iraq because of American Foreign Policy. That Bush and Blair connived at the war and subsequent occupation, and that accordingly, no British general or officer had to accept orders, neither did the soldiers. The orders were illegal, I think that it is the reason why a certain General, as was revealed in his book, took legal advice before accepting orders in respect of Iraq.
I think that Military Law has had to be changed to include orders from officers of other States, on the basis that American officers were giving orders to British, and Australian soldiers, to 'detain' individuals, who were then extra-ordinary renditioned, and treated severely by American guards, and suffered enhanced interrogation techniques, or tortured. As Hutton revealed in February previous holders of his post inadevertently misled parliament, over these issues. I look forward to the evidence of Geoff Hoon, and Jack Straw, and wish that Brown will be called to give his evidence before the general election.
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#341 Catch22
On the point of Brown going before Chillcot before the election, the point raised by Clegg yesterday. Is finding traction in the press and with the public.
We shall see.
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#342
It has been obvious for some time that Brown must be called. Maybe one way for Brown to avoid giving evidence would be for him to call a March election. That way people will also not see the effect on their pay packets of the tax increases imposed by Brown and Darling, which come into effect from 5th April.
I wonder how Brown can justify these tax increases before the recovery is established? Remember they were as a rsult of an earlier budget!
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Andrew,
when will America actually declare war on Pakistan:
A US drone fired two missiles today at a compound in north-west Pakistan where Pakistani Taliban chief Hakimullah Mehsud was believed to have been, but it was not clear if he was killed, Pakistani officials said.
Twelve militants were killed in the drone strike on a compound on the border between the North and South Waziristan tribal regions, near the Afghan frontier, the officials said.
"We had information that he was around there. We're checking on whether he was killed," a Pakistani security official, who declined to be identified, told Reuters.
When we have the terrible events in Haiti, we have to remember the words of Phil Woolas, one of the reasons why we are in Afghanistan is because if we withdraw then we have more asylum seekers and refugees. The same reason why America is giving so much aid to Haiti, they don't want a repeat of the Cuban release of political prisoners, many of whom were just criminals! Beware the boat people.
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Would there be anyway for the DP to compare and contrast the UK and US response to the bankers
I think Bob Pesto's bit today is quite thought provoking, and demonstrates a huge gulf between perceptions. He's also been going off message recently
and with the bit on Newsnight last night with Vince the Cable and the nervous woman from the US I think that there may be a champion out there
Maybe St Obama will save the world
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345. stronghold_barricades
A point made last night in the same report... these mega companies that Obama wants to regulate also sponsor presidential campaigns and contribute to party fundraisers. Bite the hand etc.?
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Andrew,
the following is an extract from the report in the Guardian this morning about evidence to the Chilcot Inquiry:
'Asked whether ministers' desire not to show that military action was being planned impeded planning by defence chiefs, Turnbull said the did not want to "give the impression war was inevitable or imminent". The military was asked to "go slow on placing orders", he said'.
Now what will Hoon say when asked at the inquiry. By going slow on placing orders there are financial implications, these must have included Brown, he really must give his evidence, soon.
I have said before, and I will repeat it, to have planned for the war would show that they planned the war. If they had not gone to war when they did then Sadam would have 'won'. The troops could not stay for long because there would have been no money, again Brown implicated. The same for the Americans, they could not bring the troops home without war, it is just like the Great war, the trains are on the move, they can't be stopped. We must see the Blair notes, I don't care if they are private. It is just like the interview which Richards gave last week-end, he referred to promises given to the Afghan people, well what are these promises, and has Brown authorised them?
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@346 TheBlameGame
I think it is about policies and accountability, and rather than biting the hand, the banking industry needs to know that there will be some penalties for that hand
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#348/#346
Is it not about who is in charge in any Democracy worthy of the name?
Are we to elect ambassadors to the court of Banking and big business?
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