Cameron hasn’t broken a pledge on Europe

NP

Agreed. Is not the best approach to make the following simple points ?

1. Conservative policy was always that a referendum would be held by any Conservative administration prior to any ratification of the Treaty by the UK.

2. That was also a Labour manifesto pledge (as regards any EU constitution - which, other than by name, the Treaty is, as any person who is not pathologically mendacious would have to acknowledge) at the last election.

3. Labour has brazenly broken its pledge to the Nation without qualification or apology, and has sought to insult the population by dishonestly seeking to persuade us after the event that the Treaty is something different from an EU constitution.

4. In contrast, the Tories have not broken any pledge - Labour's act of bad faith has simply rendered redundant and superfluous the Conservative pledge: by proceeding to ratify the Treaty, Labour has caused the Conservative pledge to be overtaken by events.

5. There would be no practical purpose in pledging to hold a post-ratification referendum in the UK - that would be like asking someone whether they would mind if someone is executed long after the execution has in fact been carried out.

6. Accordingly, any post-ratification referendum would be no more than a polling exercise designed to determine the Nation's view of our contract with Europe. Such an exercise is far better conducted by way of seeking the Nation's approval of a manifesto commitment to review our relationship with the EU - i.e. at a general election.

7. The Conservatives should therefore argue that it is Labour's breach of its contract with the People which has hobbled the Tory pledge, that no sensible party with aspirations to govern (and a sound sense of economic judgment in times where Labour has decimated the economy) would now commit the Nation to the expense of a referendum which (solely because of Labour's dishonest ratification of the Treaty, in breach of its own pledge to the Country) would serve no practical purpose, and that the Public's view of the Treaty and our relationship with Europe as a whole can more expediently be sought by way of votes at a general election in favour of a Tory manifesto which includes a commitment to review that relationship.

8. This approach would avoid the unnecessary and wasteful expense of a referendum (which would be significant), would permit the Tories to highlight Labour's cavalier approach to its own manifesto pledges, would pemit them also to demonstrate their sound practical judgment in times of economic strain, and would permit them to maintain their broad stance on Europe (thereby, one would hope, appeasing all sides of the Eurosceptic debate).

9. This should make sense to anyone who has committed doubts about any closer or federated relationship with Europe. However, it should also bear out that there is no sense in campaigning rabidly for an expensive referendum on something which has already happened. Surely it is better to demonstrate to the public that the Tories are realistic and sensible when it comes to spending much-needed national funds, and that the Party has such faith in its broad stance on Europe that it is willing to wait for endorsement of its policy as part of an overall election manifesto.

Kevyn Bodman

This is a load of twaddle.
An incoming government could withdraw ratification if it wanted to.
It could pose a referendum question on that basis.

JC

The problem is, as I understand it, that after Lisbon no further treaty will require ratification by any member state - the EU can from now, just rail-road everything through regardless.

Stepney

Bang on the money. You can't enter a race that's already been run.

The howls of derision this morning allow a sneaky peek into some very dull Europhobic minds... a post-ratification referendum would be about as useful as a training manual for the Battle of Hastings.

This particular skirmish is over - it's about what happens next that's important and the only chance of addressing our democratic deficit with the EU is to vote for a Conservative government. Anything else will doom the country to 5 more years of lick-spittle, roll-over-with-your-knees-in-the-air Europhilic, undemocratic Labour.

And that includes voting for the brains trust that is UKIP.

Kevyn Bodman

Cameron is in a position, a happy one for many politicians but of great sadness to most people, of being simultaneously accurate (and therefore truthful) and yet dishonest.
He knows that ALL parties went into the last election promising that the electorate would decide on Lisbon.
He has no good reason to believe that the electorate supports Lisbon.

The analogy with Liverpoool selling Torres is not a good one. The football club couldn't un-sell a player, but an incoming government could withdraw ratification.

Doug

Sorry bit this piece is nonsense. Cameron made his cast-iron pledge with no reference to whether the treaty was ratified or not. He has broken it plain and simple as well as putting another nail in the coffin of trust in polticians. It doesn't matter if Cameron promises referenda on future treaties because the Lisbon Treaty, the soon to be main article of the EU, is self-amending for the precise reason that it gets around all the sticky requirements for referenda on new treaties.

Kevyn Bodman

What 'further treaties'?
This is a red herring.
This is misdirection.
The Lisbon Treaty is self-amending.
There is no need for further treaties.

Forlornehope

Yes but it won't stop the swivel eyed tendency screaming "Traitor"!

Vulture

Youare missing the point, James. With Lisbon in place Dave will be governing at the behest of Brussels. He will be Governor of an EU province at best - and any Tory plans to fix broken Britain ( cf. today's Brussels whip hand over Liebour's plans for British banks) - will have to be in line with our masters over the water or they won't happen.

It's particularly piquant that Dave is wearing a poppy in your picture since he has just betrayed what the dead of two world wars died for : British independence, and democracy and freedom from domination by European powers.

Dennis Churchill

Nerdy Wonks and lawyers may believe he has not broken a pledge: the public will think he has. He will be filed under “Another Political Liar”

anwar

your post is incorrect, he pledged to hold a referendum, EVEN IF IT IS RATIFIED. He must hold this promise, and if he gets a no vote, he must use the de-ratification clause in the treaty. please faxct check your posts more thoroughly before muddying the waters.

In2minds

James Forsyth says - Cameron’s “cast-iron pledge” has been overtaken by events -

Really? To me it looks like Cameron's cast iron has rusted away and he has been overtaken by events.

The Tory party has got itself into a mess over Lisbon and Cameron is wholly responsible for this, he should have had a better game plan on the timetable. Anyone with even half a memory can recall he did promise a vote on Lisbon.
I thought he was supposed to be average at politics but good at PR!

adam

Nonsense. He knew what the situation and then made the pledge. He can't go back on it now without facing the consequences.

General Zod

Thanks for this riposte to the ridiculous Telegraph headline.

I don't understand your final paragraph, James. What can Cameron do when the Treaty (Constitution by another name) has already been ratified by Parliament?

Fergus Pickering

Oh dear. here we go again. Cameron made no reference to whether the treaty was raified or not because, being an intelligent man, which even his detractors admit, he assumed anyone would understand that it is no bloody good saying you won't ratify a treaty when you have in fact already ratified it. Of course we are in this positionn because of the traitors Blair and Brown, both of whom would hang as high as Saddam if there were any justice. But there isn't any justice so we must just do the best we can. I wouldn't get your knickers in a twist about what the treaty says is legal and not legal. International politics have nothing to do with legalities, as Bush and Blair know, but with what you have it in your power to do. We have it in our power to withhold money from the EU. It doesn't matter whether it is legal or not. Legal according to whom? And, to put it in playgroundspeak, 'Who is going to make me, you horrible little euro person?' Our strength is that we finance the foreign swine and they need our money to fritter away on towers of piffle and the like (I am speaking metaphorically, you understand, and not about the Boris putative erection). Legalities don't come into it. Ask any international lawyer.

Sue

Perhaps not but the Tories pledged a referendum on their last manifesto. They know we want one, they are too scared to give us one. We want a chance to exercise our democratic rights on the EU.

This is not democracy in action. We are being dragged screaming and kicking into a totalitarian state, completely unaccountable, completely unelected by us, completely undemocratic!

After a lifetime of voting Tory, I will not do so this time!

General Zod

Apologies, James, now I've re-read your final paragraph. Not all EU Treaties reach the level of constitutional importance to require a referendum, but certainly any Treaty of the nature of this one should be subject to a referendum.

Rhoda Klapp

Well, every one of the parties has let us down. It matters not how they justify themselves with weasel words. We will know in future what to expect from this man when he says cast-iron pledge. I assume we can also take any manifesto pledge on this subject in the same spirit?

Mary Rose

We can be very sure the the EU Superstate will not require any other treaties after the Czech ratify.
We must have our vote before we are handed over to a foreign power.
If David Cameron will not give us this we must rally round UKIP.
I despise all politicians who refuse to believe that the people of this country can be herded like sheep.

John Bracewell

'Cameron must honour his pledge that "No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum"'
Since it has been reported that the treaty has a clause that allows for self amendment, there will never be the need for another treaty. So it would be a hollow pledge.
Due to the disgraceful way the people have been treated in entering into such a wide ranging constitution/treaty without being consulted, the only referendum the people are now interested in is the one which asks "IN or OUT". Actually since the whole objective for Cameron (just like Blair) is to get elected, there would be many votes in an In/Out referendum.
I would like to see a piece written about what the UK really gains from its membership of the EU, it certainly is not a financial or even a democratic gain. Perhaps someone could also explain why people like Blair, Brown, Cameron want to be PM at the same time as giving away the UK's sovereign powers to the EU.

Paul Williams

Cameron must honour his pledge that "No [EU] treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum."

It's amazing how Tory blog after Tory blog regurgitates verbatim this line without a thought.

If Cameron does indeed promise this, then that will be where the real deception lies. Just for clarity, Lisbon will be the last EU treaty ever, because it is self-amending.

It will be a pointless, hollow and deceitful promise, and one that Cameron will know is a waste of time.

Local Local

Naiveity reigns supreme!

There will not be anymore treaties - there doesn't need to be. The Lisbon Treaty creates the mechanism by which the Commission, Council of Ministers and Parliament can amend the Treaty without reference to nation states ever again.

Watt Tyler

With Czech submission, the Lisbon Constitutional Treaty IS ratified. Even with our dull UKIP minds we know this. In fact Dull UKIP minds seem to know best about the reality concerning the puppet UK "council" at Westminster whatever its hue than most Conservatives.

But, the Lisbon Constitutional Treaty means that the Tories cannot hold any referenda about further reeling in of our national sovreignty. This treaty was the last chance, and every one needs to realise it. Therefore, the Tories, if they become the symbolic leaders of the EUSSR province of Britain can only retain sovreignty if they roll back this treaty. In fact, I don't know if they can even do that.

Therefore, a national referendum should take place, but its issue should be whether or not we ceceed from the EUSSR. Anything less, and it shows that they do not understand the predicament, or perhaps that they don't want to.

(and the predicament is that a freedom loving nation has now been subsumed into a pre-enlightenment, pre-magna carta style soviet state where its leaders cannot be taken to account.)

Man should be ruled by the law, not by the whim of other men.

Fergus Pickering

But Sue, a referendum on what? What will you ask the British people? Please tell me.I would really like to know? If you answer 'In or out?' I would say, good question, but not one Cameron pledged to ask.

Colin Pritchard

Regardless of whether the 'cast iron pledge' has or has not been overtaken by events one might have hoped that the Heir to Blair would have replaced it by some other plan of action if he believes that it has.

As it stands it's "I'll huff and I'll puff and.....and........I'll not let it rest there"

"Pathetic, that's what it is, pathetic." said Eyeore gloomily.

The Puppet Master

I don't think interested Sun readers would see it that way. As far as I'm concerned his word is worth nothing.
I still think it's irrelevant though, as their are two major challenges we will face as the debt crisis hits next year, namely, how will we afford the EU contribution and how will we generate new jobs?
As things stand with all the regulations churned out by the EU, plus taxes to pay for banksters, starting a new business is simply not worth the effort. ultimately this will cause the whole EU project to fail.

Publius

"Any further treaties must be put to a vote"

Don't you get it? There won't need to be any further treaties! Where were you when the Eurocrats were preening themselves on how clever they'd been on stitching us all up with an impenetrable self-amending constitution that obviates the need to consult the people ever again?

I've stood with Mr Cameron up to now on his position, and I have opposed the stance of e.g. Verity or TGF UKIP. But now I really have come to the point where I feel that we're just being finessed. Increasingly, Mr Cameron is looking like a manager rather than a leader.

And if the choice is:

1. Rule by Brussels (Con)
or
2. Rule by Brussels (Lab)

with the only political choices that remain being what colour to paint the parish pump, then I will will have to part company.

(And to those who ask me: "would you rather have Labour"? - then my response is that if Cameron sells us down the river on this, then I actually don't care. In some ways Verity is right. Labour is a busted flush. Even if Labour won, they wouldn't manage to hold out. And then the whole sick, smug, cosy system would be smashed once and for all)

greenslime3

How can you tell when a aeroplane full of little-Englanders has landed at the airport? Because it keeps whining when they turn the engines off!

Cameron has promised to hold a referendum if and when he gets into power and, when he gets there, so long as that treaty has not been ratified.

But, once the treaty is ratified, the situation is different and, surely, it is sensible to look at the lie of the land at that time. Having a road map for every possible route, would be a stupid waste of time. It would also enable opponents to anticipate and mine your potential alternatives well ahead of arrival of antis.

Let's deal with the situation as we find it and worry about detours when we get there - and in doing so, keep opponents on the back foot - or at least off the front foot.

Yes, we have been the victim of Moron's recidivistic dishonesty and, we are at great risk of being dragged ever deeper into the mire that will be a defacto US of E but shouting and whinging just to make noise will get us nowhere - it is truly amazing how many people mistake talking for thinking.

Quit the noise. My guess is that Cameron is only too well aware of ground-level feeling about this treaty and how it came to pass - give him some room to deal with the situation. Then, if you don't like the proposals, you have a right to make some noise - a lot of noise.

TrevorsDen

The bonkers tendency are out in force again.

Cameron has clearly said many times and said it again at his last press conference that the tories would give a referendum IF the treaty were unratified and thus not in force.
Suppose the YES tendency decided to boycott the poll? They may as well since the treaty is in force. IF they were to boycott the poll then it would have no validity. The notion of having a poll post ratification is daft.

There is a naive notion that the country would vote YES anyway. This is far from certain and if it did vote YES then what for the govt? It would have no cards left to play.

A YES vote is quite possible because the country would have been asked to vote for a pig in a poke. It would not know what the consequences of voting NO would be because there would have been no negotiations with the E.U.

An incoming Tory govt would have to deal with the problem as it found it and pursue its pledge to repatriate powers. The notion of the treaty being self amending is a red herring as the govt could veto or otherwise refuse to accept changes.

Neil Turner

The "Torres" analogy doesn't work

"Powers" are untangible assets. Cameron could easily just decide to ignore the powers ceded by Lisbon, on the basis that there was no democratic mandate from the British people.

I don't think that the EU could do much about it as long as there are 30 million Brits who are prepared to form a Resistance Movement

DavidDP

Some sense at last. The fact that pledge was only pre-ratification has been clear on the party website for some time.

Further, the same media that is screaming "u-turn" was at the time of the Tory conference stating that Cameron's lack of a pledge to hold a referendum post-ratification was creating splits in the party. They can't have it both ways.

Well, reading some of the comments, perhaps they can. Shame.

Watt Tyler

I notice how opposition to Cameron is abused with name calling. Is this any different to the Brown regime that these people in many cases look to replace?

Confused of Sussex

A simpleton's question. Why can't we resile from the EU and re-join EFTA? We would retain access to the whole EEA, which is the last thing we ever really gave consent to, and relieve ourselves of all the political ties.

Dorothy Wilson

"Quit the noise. My guess is that Cameron is only too well aware of ground-level feeling about this treaty and how it came to pass - give him some room to deal with the situation. Then, if you don't like the proposals, you have a right to make some noise - a lot of noise."

Exactly! As I posted yesterday there could be a two-pronged approach:

1. Try to renegotiate on the basis of repatriating key areas. If that succeeds well and good. If it doesn't DC will have shown the EU to be what many of us fear it is heading towards - a bureaucratic dictatorship.

2. At that stage we can have a referendum giving the people the clear choice of being under the thumb of that dictatorship or going for freedom.

This approach has the advantage of turning Brown's bullying on its head - and also of creating a win/win situation for the Conservatives.

So please stop trying to dance on the head of a pin and go for a proper strategy.

Publius

@TrevorsDen
"The notion of the treaty being self amending is a red herring as the govt could veto or otherwise refuse to accept changes."

No, they could not.

And as for just ignoring the law, which some think is a clever ploy, this will be rather like local councillors ignoring the law. Local councillors are subject to a higher authority, and that authority can prosecute them, disbar them, even arrest them.

You might ask, who will do the arresting? The British police. That's who. Because they will be beholden to EU law for the reasons mentioned.

TrevorsDen

Greenslime 3 - you have the advantage over the bonkers tendency as you clearly have at least half a brain.

read my lips - THE TREATY IS RATIFIED. Just what would a post ratification vote do?

IF the tories want to pull out or change the countries relationship with the EU it can go ahead and do that without a poll. It might want a referendum based on what it subsequently negotiates, but maybe not even then.

Paul Williams

@TrevorsDenThe notion of the treaty being self amending is a red herring as the govt could veto or otherwise refuse to accept changes..

Not true, the Lisbon treaty is actually not treaty but a constitution, therefore it is not an agreement between countries, but instead establishes the EU as a legal state in international law, in which the UK then becomes subservient.

In simple terms it enshrines EU law as supreme, and individual Governments can and will be overruled.

The self amending part - article 48/7 - will be used by the EU to grab even more powers. To think our Government will be able to veto anything is extremely naive.

DavidDP

"He knows that ALL parties went into the last election promising that the electorate would decide on Lisbon."

Yes. Pre-ratification. And the Tories didn't win so couldn't carry it out. We will have a new election shortly, whcih will have to deal with a new situation, at which a new approach will be defined.

the shade of dr kelly

if papers like the telegraph has spent less time sucking up to brown and spent more time pulling him up on issues such as the referendum on lisbon then cameron might not be in the position that he is in now.

there is one group of people at fault for this situation and that is thecurrent labour government. nobody else.

the papers and idiot columnists should use their paperspaceto besavaging brown for this betrayal rather than causing a mischief for cameron because tory european splits are a good story.

the press put stories above the national interest.they should be proud.

JONNY

Is it not clear that the issue is being deliberately used, among other issues, to derail Cameron and prevent a Conservative victory at the next Election.
So many so-called Tories so happy at the prospect of more Labour government.
Why deceive ourselves? It's all too obvious.

Pramston

Labour have betrayed the people not the Tories. Don't let any targeting of Cameron encouraged by the spin doctors and useful idiots in the press detract from that core essential truth. Labour are the guilty party in this irrelevant of what can or can't be done by any future Government.

DavidDP

"Cameron made his cast-iron pledge with no reference to whether the treaty was ratified or not."

This is factually incorrect.

mac

" Sue:
We are being dragged screaming and kicking into a totalitarian state, completely unaccountable, completely unelected by us, completely undemocratic!"

We're not being dragged there, we're in it, perfidious New Labour saw to that when Brown ignored the pledge to hold a referendum and ratified the Treaty/constitution. And, like it not, Brown is leader of the party in parliament that gained a majority democratically so, irrespective of reneging on a clear commitment, his action wasn't 'undemocratic' in a (supposedly) parliamentary system of government.

As Fergus P says, Eurosceptics should now concentrate on fighting the next battle. Frankly, anything you do in the privacy of the polling booth that aids Labour - and a vote designed to 'punish' Cameron is likely to do just that - rather defeats your purpose.

2trueblue

Cameron appears to be ensuring we get a hung parliment.

Fergus Pickering

Publius, you are quite mad.

The Gateless Gate

If no referendum is forthcoming on the Lisbon Treaty, ratified or not, then a referendum must, repeat must, be held on continued membership of the EU.

Michael

"Why deceive ourselves? It's all too obvious."
Rubbish. I have been a Tory all my life, and voted for them until Major.
Lisbon however means that it now doesn't matter which of the 2 mainstream parties has a majority in the emasculated UK parliament, so I shall take my vote, in a marginal, elsewhere. It's called 'protest', the only way short of armed rebellion that I can demonstrate my anger at the feeble 'political classes'.

Publius

@JONNY
"Is it not clear that the issue is being deliberately used, among other issues, to derail Cameron and prevent a Conservative victory at the next Election."

Not by me. I am not anti-Cameron. Not at all.

But this EU question is, for me, central. And I have been beguiled and finessed once too often to swallow further vague half-promises and "cast-iron guarantees" that turn out to be worth squat.

Peter

This argument will go round and round, but here's a thought. The UK parliament is sovereign in the sense that it can make and annul legislation. So why cannot it annul the law it passed ratifying the Lisbon treaty?

A proper debate could take place, not the sham debate labour allowed earlier this year and the motion to annul the ratification would be put to a vote. Of course it might fall but I cannot see an alternative.

Peter

And I meant to add to my last post but clicked to soon, that such a course would be widely appreciated in Brussels as it follows the EU's love of asking the same question as many times as it takes to get the answer it wants.

Tiberius

I agree with your Torres analogy, James (although TGF UKIP might have apoplexy at the very suggestion of selling him), and with Fergus' expansion.

But why aren't those of you who don't agree with the analysis simply asking what Dave is going to do to meet his pledge "not to let the matter rest there"? I'm certainly waiting for the statement he's going to give later in the week.

TomTom

Cameron should issue a blank page manifesto for the next election. It is pointless printing words since noone can believe anything a politician says....best to call the Manifesto CARTE BLANCHE for that is what politicians think the voters are granting them

salieri

Oh dear, as Fergus rightly says. First we have the football analogy for the benefit of the dim-witted. Then we have the dim-witted themselves demanding that we "withdraw ratification".

You don't have to be an international lawyer to wonder how you can possibly "withdraw ratification" once a treaty - any treaty - has been ratified. For the sake of the dim-witted, it's a bit like unscoring a goal.

That's the tricky thing about legally binding agreements: they mean that two or more parties have agreed something and are stuck with it - unless of course you subscribe to Hattie Harpic QC's view that a binding contract is not binding in the 'Court of Public Opinion'. Well, the Lisbon Treaty does not exactly appear to find favour in the Court of Public Opinion, and there's bugger all we can do about it.

The Huntsman

The promise to hold referenda on future treaties is utterly meaningless. There are not, given the ability under Lisbon to amend without them, going to be any more treaties. Why would our masters risk such a thing when we might givce the wrong answer?

Once Cameron fromally abandons his cast iron pledge to hold a referendum, the Tory party's policy on the EU is that the Uk should remain a member of it.

That means that any person who is a member of or votes for the Tories is supporting the whole shooting match: from 'ever-closer union' onwards. You cannot be a Eurosceptic and a Tory since those positions will now be mutually exclusive.

More importanlty we now know what Cameron really is: as gutless, deceitful and dishonourable as Gordon Brown.

This is a seminal moment in that it marks the moment when the political class finally told the British People to bugger off and mind their own business.

Well the political class may find that we now dispense with them. It is no less than they deserve.

Barbara

They promise then change their minds, there're all the same, and fill us with the 'ratification theme' we DID NOT GIVE PERMISSION for this treaty, we the people. So to me WE can HOLD A REFERENDUM its our right as citizens, we won't give our country away like toffee we think more of it than that, don't wee? No politician should assume he knows best and decide our destiny at a stroke, they are there to serve us not themselves. So, we will have our referendum, we will decide what WE want or ignore this Treaty that has been imposed on us by force and mislead politicians. We now have a choice in parliament too, Ukip or the BNP and why not, for they will not betray us.

Publius

@Tiberius
Ben Brogan today writes:
"From the conversations I’ve had this morning, there is no one inside the machine who expects a referendum, the argument being that you can’t have a vote on something that is already in place. Worse for those who will find this difficult to swallow, there is little hope that Mr Cameron will be able to offer any realistic prospect of repatriating powers"

See his blog page for the rest.

Verity

James Forsyth says - Cameron’s “cast-iron pledge” has been overtaken by events -. No, it hasn’t. It’s been taken over by a fear in Cameron’s mind that if Britain is not in the EUSSR, Cameron won’t have a place at the top table, nor on the lavish gravy train, of Brussels and won’t get all the sychophancy your average powerful member of the Nomenklatura expects. This election is all about David Cameron. He is a nasty piece of work.

Fergus Pickering writes: Cameron made no reference to whether the treaty was ratified or not because, being an intelligent man, which even his detractors admit …

Hello! Toot toot! Cameron is not an intelligent man. He is cunning and vastly greedy, like Tony Blair; he is self-regarding, like Tony Blair. “Intelligent”, by which I take it you mean “highly intelligent” rather than average, he, like Tony Blair, is not. He can’t even land a blow on punch drunk Gordon Brown at Question Time.

I’m with Sue. No way am I voting Tory as long as this piece of work is leading the party.

Verity

Greenslime writes, with an infantile air of self-congratlation: "How can you tell when a aeroplane full of little-Englanders has landed at the airport?"

Could you give us your qualifications for not being - in that very dusty, dated, quaint term - a "little Englander"?

For example, how many languages do you speak? How many other countries have you lived in, and were you working in those countries? Have you owned property in other countries?

I look forward to your witty and cosmopolitan reply. Many thanks.

R King

Why all this anti Cameron garbage when it was Blair and Brown who broke all the promises.

Save your venom and go for the jugular of the real villains.

BROWN AND BLAIR LIED TO US ONCE AGAIN!!!!

Cjamesk

The real damage was done by Labour selling us out without a say.

But fret not for the people will remember this betrayal,Cromwell was a farmer after all. Interesting times indeed.

The Gateless Gate

Pithily put Huntsman.

Yes, the message or slogan to the political classes, tout court et toute suite:

Bugger off!

Nick

It's a constitutional issue. No referenda means Brown acted Ultra Vires.

The UK's signing is illegal.

A referenda is required. The EU then has to campaign to win it.

Publius

Fergus Pickering writes:
"Publius, you are quite mad."

Irritated, certainly; but not insane. Are you going to offer an argument why yet again I should accept "wait and see", or "one policy at a time" or "no point talking about hypotheticals" or "trust me"?

All I see is name-calling. "Nutters", "Lunatic fringe", "Headbangers".

Sorry, Fergus, but it's rather like the grade inflation of all those silly lefty students who used to scream "fascist" at everything to the right of Michael Foot. In the end the whole language of condemnation loses its traction.

strapworld

I would have thought Cameron would be in a far far stronger position, had the Country been allowed to participate in a referendum and that referendum had returned a large majority against the Lisbon treaty, to negotiate what changes he wished.

To enter a negotiating chamber with nothing more than a 'manifesto mandate' is nonsensical, especially when the EU gang could remind Cameron that their great supporter, Brown, had shown that manifesto's mean nothing.

Also, I recall Wilson playing the same trick about re-negotiating and came away with sweet fanny adams!

Cameron better have something positive up his sleeve or he will lose many voters.

DavidDP

From 2007
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23411847-cameron-to-lead-the-charge-for-a-public-vote-on-eu-treaty.do

"Mr Cameron repeated his pledge to hold a referendum and campaign for a No vote if the Tories come to power in an early election that takes place before Parliament has ratified the new treaty. "

Referendum, before ratification. He's been saying this for 2 years. Even the BBC understood this as late as October this year:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8288652.stm
"The Tory leader promised a vote on the treaty should his party win the election - but only if it had not been ratified by all EU member states. "

Frankly, everyone now claiming that he's reneged on a pledge should either get their eyes checked or sign up for remedial reading and comprehension classes.

DavidDP

"It's a constitutional issue. No referenda means Brown acted Ultra Vires."

A citation for that? As far as I am aware, there is no constitutional requirement for referenda in the UK.

JONNY

'This election is all about David Cameron. He is a nasty piece of work.'

As I wrote in my post above:
a deliberate attempt to wrongfoot Cameron and elect another Labour government.
Oh how the mask is slipping.

Publius

@DavidDP
"Frankly, everyone now claiming that he's reneged on a pledge should either get their eyes checked or sign up for remedial reading and comprehension classes."

Paltering shifts and Orwellian Some-pigs-are-more-equal-than-others.

Look. I don't care if some clever-clever legalese can be used to try to make the claim that Mr Cameron did not offer a cast-iron guarantee. The fact is, I am not prepared to vote for a party that is prepared to "live with" Lisbon. Period.

Verity

I have a feeling that Cameron's tapping the side of his nose and saying, "Trust me; I have a secret plan" is losing any potency it had. Where do I go to check the odds of Cameron not being the Tory Leader who takes us into the next election? Surely the whiff of "loser" has become strong enough for the Tory High Command to have noticed?

The Gateless Gate

Ho ho, DavidDP, very amusing of you to nitpick incessantly, but ordinary people will understand that another promise has been broken.

The question they will ask is why.

oldtimer

According to James Langdale on World at One, Cameron will make his statement tomorrow on the Conservative post Lisbon ratification policy. So not long to wait.

Many seem to know already what this policy will be. I wish I shared their foresight.

Yesterday I suggested there were three options:
(1) roll over and accept the Lisbon treaty and, in that overused phrase, move on.
(2) hold an in or out referendum
(3) seek renegotiation and repatriation of powers.

My view is that the better course is for Cameron to seek an election manifesto mandate to negotiate the repatriatriation of powers. No doubt he will spell out just what he wants repatriated. If he wins the GE, he then negotiates with the rest of the EU. If, as some have suggested earlier, the treaty is indeed self amending then presumably that would be the mechanism by which changes are implemented. I do not know enough about the legalities on this but if the political will is there, no doubt that could be achieved.

There then remains the issue of whether to put the result of that renegotiation to the British people in a referendum, namely either to accept the outcome (with the rest of the Lisbon baggage as the best of a bad job) or to reject it and make orderly arrangements for leaving the EU and constructing a new relationship with it. That is the practical choice now.

My recollection is that when Cameron said he would seek a referendum, he acknowledged the possibility that people might say Yes and accept the treaty. If that happened, he agreed he would be bound by it. The same position could and should obtain in the event of a revised referendum on either accepting Lisbon with some repatriated powers or orderly departure.

I believe that there is a good case for proceeding in this way, dealing with the matter in the two stages of (1) renegotiation and then (2) referendum.

Having a referendum on an already ratified treaty seems daft to me.

The Laughing Cavalier

The Lisbon Constitution was ratified by the unelected quisling Brown. It can and should be un-ratified. Furthermore. the £2.6bn a year that Blair paid for the promise of the Presidency should be clawed back immediately. If Dive reneges on his "cast iron guarantee" of a referendum I shall vote for the kippers.

JONNY

I was going to add:
it takes a nasty piece of work to know one.

Vulture

@Jonny : No need to try and 'wrongfoot' Dave, Jonners, he does it every time he opens that funny little mouth of his.

Now he tells us we're going to have to wait until tomorrow to find out his new Europe policy - presumably after he's roughed it out on the back of an envelope overnight.

Perhaps you can explain this: since it is the Tories who have supinely gone along every step of the way with the EU's unfolding plan to create a superstate by stealth - from Supermac's original application to join, to traitor Ted's signing on the dotted line,Mrs T's signi ng of the Single European Act, to Johnny Major's submission to Maastricht, to Dave's grovelling white flag to Lisbon - why are you so sure that a Dave Government is going to suddenly get all strong and bold and stick up for a free and independent nation?

You are in dreamland, matey: wakey wakey. You've just lost your country.

MrJones

"For the sake of the dim-witted, it's a bit like unscoring a goal."

Which happens all the time when the goal was scored by foul means.

DavidDP

"clever-clever legalese"

I'm not sure it's "clever clever" legalese to point out what Cameron actually said. That seems to be straight forward fact checking to me.

"Ho ho, DavidDP, very amusing of you to nitpick incessantly, but ordinary people will understand that another promise has been broken"

You seem to be assuming that "ordinary people" (who are these, and who are the ones that aren't ordinary?) are stupid. I on the other hand reckon that most can see what has actually been said, not what people with a certain agenda wish had been said. And I'm not sure it's nitpicking to point out what was actually said.

Tiberius

Publius: I have read the Ben Brogan blog. But why try to second guess the outcome of what Cameron's going to say?

Vulture: the country has been lost since 2 May 1997. Cameron is the only guy to have emerged since then who has given us a chance to start to get it back.

DavidDP

"Surely the whiff of "loser" has become strong enough for the Tory High Command to have noticed?"

Polling evidence (which is, absent an election, the only evidence we have) suggests that Cameron is personally liked more than his party, which itself is polling with a lead of 13-15%. That's not really a "whiff of loser".

"You've just lost your country."

Query - France, Spain, Demmark, Italy, Ireland et al are far more integrated into the EU. From this perspective, they still seem to be there as countries. How have they been lost?

Verity

I recall your describing David Cameron's mouth as a hen's arse. (Still laughing.)

Rhoda Klapp

I'll be happy with the new policy, to be announced tomorrow, but only provided it's a cast-iron pledge.

Publius

@DavidDP

Cameron: "Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee"

Now, when he said "today", he didn't mean that the cast-iron guarantee would be valid, say, tomorrow, or next week, did he? How silly of me not to have read his words with a more suspicious eye.

And when he appended his signature, deliberately reinforcing his commitment, well hey, that was just for "today", and anyway that signature was just like, hey, a photo copy thingy, not valid at all, eh?

How like Brown you're beginning to sound, DavidDP.

JONNY

You can matey me till kingdom come, Vulture,
but if you take a look at PB today you'll find that (unlike you and me) only 1% (one per cent) of voters care a hoot about the Euro issue.
If you're a Party Leader, it's probably not the worst idea in the world to engage with the voters' prime concerns.
Unless of course you want to remain in Opposition for ever.
The Message now is FOCUS on the Referendum of May 6th 2010.
Get the Tories back into power and then work for change.
If that doesn't happen we're all dead ducks.

Roadrunner

One of protest vote UKIP,or if anyone has the guts a straight in/out vote but Camerons not the man he's too weak.

Paul Williams

@Peter The UK parliament is sovereign in the sense that it can make and annul legislation. So why cannot it annul the law it passed ratifying the Lisbon treaty?

That was true until Lisbon was ratified this afternoon by Klaus.

Lisbon negates Parliament's sovereignty because it's a constitution not a treaty - the EU now is supreme.

The only legal option left is now 'in or out'

Verity

Fraser Nelson has morphed into Peter Pan and gone to live in Never-Neatherland.

Publius

@Tiberius
"Publius: I have read the Ben Brogan blog. But why try to second guess the outcome of what Cameron's going to say?"

Quite right, and I'm not trying to second-guess. But what I am saying is that it had better not be more waffle or window-dressing. If it is, he's lost me.

The Gateless Gate

If it is a choice next May between voting Labour out and voting for an EU-exit strategy, then it will have to be the latter.

The Gateless Gate

What is curious is being continually told by the commentariat that MPs and associated political class have lost the trust of voters, yet when it comes to the crunch the commentariat lines up behind this same untrustworthy bunch as if somehow the earthquake that has occurred can be papered over with sophistry. It cannot.

Tim Carpenter LPUK

Cameron has been laying the ground for this event for some time, so it must come as no surprise.

That, though, does not reduce the treachery involved.

For Cameron to think he can re-negotiate or repatriate while Lisbon holds sway is either disingenuous or deluded. What is his real sanction? Withholding funding? The EU will enjoy adding the waiver of late payment fines to its stack of bargaining chips.

For some to say it is a "done deal" and cannot be backed out of, remember that our elected representatives only have our sovereignty ON LOAN and CANNOT bind future Parliaments. An incoming Parliament can repeal what it wishes. If a previous Parliament thinks it has "signed away" the ability for that to happen, then that signing was itself illegal and, AFAICT unconstitutional.

I do suspect Cameron is happy with this situation. He will engage with talks that will go on for ages. All the while Lisbon will coil around our throats tighter and tighter. All the while Cameron will be implementing "devolution" and other regionalisation activities.

Hail Cameron, the new Town Clerk of Britain!

General Zod

The French simply ignore late payment fines and then negotiate them away next time the EU needs their vote on something.

Publius

@General Zod
"The French simply ignore late payment fines and then negotiate them away next time the EU needs their vote on something."

Yes. And I wish we would do the same. But we won't. It ain't the British way.

And you know, in the end, contempt for the law is corrupting. For that reason the British way is wiser. But as I think you said earlier, our own decency has been our undoing.

I wish someone would explain quite how I personally can ignore those EU Directives (now, post-Lisbon, EU LAWS) I don't like.

Peter

Paul Williams - how sure are you that you are right? We have all been told that Lisbon is a treaty and NOT a Constitution. Has the EU shot itself in the legal foot, perhaps?

Anthony Hill

You could have seen this earlier by watching the company he was choosing first it was Ken Clarke lately Hesltine There is going to be hell to pay.He did no good for Major It will do for Cameron less than nothing I think we are in for very interesting times

Victor Southern

Before David Cameron can do anything at all about our relationship with the EU he needs first to become Prime Minister.

The blogs for the past few days have been afire with bogus Tories, useful fools, all repeating endlessly what Mandelson has fed into the system.

This has two effects - rage is turned away from the real culprits and more and more misguided people are saying that they will now vote UKIP. That is, of course, Labour's last hope of retaining power.

The UKippers will not rest until they have given Brown another 5 years so that they can say "There, I told you so". It is proof that turkeys do vote for Christmas.

But, whilst on the topic of voting for UKIP, do they have any other policies? Such as about the economy or education or crime? Surely not just the one - get out of Europe?

The silliness of this non-stop Farago is that every vote for UKIP is a waste since they can never hold power and so are totally unable to alter anything at all. Perhaps they are hoping to cause a hung Parliament so that we can have a couple of years of LibLab.

John Hall

"Cast-iron" but with caveats which we forgot to tell you about?
Great big hairy ones! This really reveals a Blairlike contempt for an electorate which has become much wiser and sophisticated than the wonks would like to paint it.
Dave gave a promise. Honour it, Dave or you'll never be trusted and that's a sine qua non of being elected. Public revulsion may be minimised in time but its effect will be just enough to allow a large UKIP showing and a hung Parliament at best, a Brown project endorsement if the worst case scenario unfolds. A totally needless own goal by the leadership. Whose advice are you taking, Dave?

DavidDP

"with caveats which we forgot to tell you about?"

They've been mentioned consistently since 2007.

Michael Booth

A little over two hundred years ago in a land far. far away a group of exasperated citizens got together and drafted their own protest document which began "We the People..." and led to the birth of the USA. They were, by the standards of the day, acting unconstitutionally, but there was no way they would get the level of independence and autonomy they wanted from Britain by peaceful methods, so they took action. We keep expected our politicans to do the decent thing and give us a referendum on the EU but each time they bottle it. Well, we could do it ourselves - organise a national petition, referendum, declaration, convention - call it what you will, and show the politicans what people think. (Ok ok there are tons of issues relating to funding and organising such a thing, but I for one like the idea of direct citizen action). Time to lie down in a darkened room I think...

Promise of Avalon

It might be that any further treaty will have to be put before the people in a referendum, but my understanding is that the Lisbon Treaty gives the EU the power to self-amend. This, surely, would mean that no further treaties are needed for the continuation of 'ever closer union.'

Euroindifferent

The Euro experiment is akin to the Soviet Union and the former Yougoslavia and clearly history showes that these atificial constructions fall apart within three generations so we should just educate and equipe our children to deal with life after dictatorship.

Life is not all bad the future is with children we have lost our chance and betrayed the acheivements of our for fathers.