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Race Divides Opinions of Vang Verdict
Posted by Andrew on Tuesday, September 20 @ 02:56:38 EDT
Law

Some say a white jury can't understand that Chai Soua Vang felt threatened by hunters

By Laura Yuen
©2005 St. Paul Pioneer Press
September 18, 2005

The chilling details of his actions - six dead, four shot in the back - make Chai Soua Vang an unlikely subject of sympathy. But like the O.J. Simpson case, the murder trial that ended Friday night with guilty verdicts on all counts has divided its audience into two camps, largely drawn by racial lines.

In the days leading up to the trial, for example, the case drew dozens of posts filled with raw emotions on the Hmong Today online community forum. Some contributors declared Vang innocent, and at least one deemed him a hero. Another person who identified himself as a hunter of Hmong descent called Vang's actions "outrageous and uncalled for" but said the history of racism in the Northwoods of Wisconsin prompted Vang to believe he needed to "kill or be killed." Phebe Saunders Haugen, a Hamline University law professor, does not doubt that racial overtones led to the bloodshed, a lesson that shouldn't be lost. But the former prosecutor was astonished that Vang was claiming self-defense.

"I have a lot of sympathy for him," said Haugen, who is white. "But shooting eight people, I would have a hard time justifying it as anything other than murder. If it weren't such a rampage... there might have been more sympathy and support from the community."

Haugen's sentiment is a prevailing one: Vang's response was so disproportionate with any kind of verbal abuse he encountered that she can't buy self-preservation as a defense.

Yet some Hmong Americans, as well as blacks and other Minnesotans of color, say they have no trouble putting themselves in Vang's shoes the night he fired at the eight other hunters, who were all white. They make clear that the St. Paul man, who was Hmong American, must pay for his crimes, but they say they understand the fear of feeling outnumbered, threatened and cajoled on account of their race.

Those personal experiences allow them to perceive Vang as not a calculated murderer but a man fueled by instincts of survival.

And they question whether an all-white jury could have shared those same experiences in order to grasp both sides of the story.

"We've all been in that scenario, but it was just lucky for us that we got out without being harmed," said Shoua Lee, 26, who remembered her father, a Hmong immigrant, coming close to fetching his gun after a racially charged incident involving a mob at his front door. "Most people think (Vang) was pushed real hard. It's just very unfortunate that the people who are going to make this decision don't have that background of what it's like to be an outsider, and not only an outsider, but of a different race."

The jury found Vang guilty Friday of murdering six hunters and attempting to murder two others; a third attempted murder charge was added because one of the hunters was pursued twice. Some of the harder facts to digest -- that he chased at least a few of his victims down, even though they weren't armed -- don't diminish Lee's empathy.

"I just believe him when he says they were going to get their guns and come for him," said the St. Paul woman.

The Rev. Devin Miller, a St. Paul church elder and community activist, said he can't help but think that the hunters used racial insults -- and possibly fired the first shot, as Vang contends. That's in dispute with the surviving hunters, who have testified that they didn't use racial slurs and that Vang fired first.

But Vang's statements provide Miller, who is black, with a believable context that would cause a man to snap.

"You can either say, 'This guy's really smart and he's going to play the race card,' or, 'He's telling the truth,' " Miller said. "And I'm thinking, you're in Wisconsin, northern Wisconsin, and here is a group of folks who don't think he should be on their property. I've been in places where maybe not necessarily racial epithets have been said to me, but you get the feeling, 'maybe I shouldn't be here.' I think he was being sincere."

Reactions to the jury selection ranged from outrage to resignation. It wouldn't be a stretch, Miller said, to compare the case to Simpson's civil trial. After a mostly black jury from Los Angeles acquitted Simpson in 1995 in the deaths his wife and her friend, two years later an all-white jury in Santa Monica, Calif., found him civilly accountable.

In Vang's case, the jury selection was held in Madison instead of rural Sawyer County to help ensure an impartial panel.

The original pool of potential jurors included minorities, but none was chosen. Several minorities said they couldn't be impartial.

"That's just how things are," said Shawn Jones, 31, a St. Paul disabled veteran who is black. Last week, before Vang's guilty verdict came down, Jones said, "He ain't gonna have a fair trial."

More troubling, Miller said, is the feeling he gets that the town of Rice Lake has been blindly supporting the hunters, when the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

"The images that come to my mind is that of the rural South in the early '50s and '60s in justifying a lynching," Miller said. "You have the person of color on trial for being in a place where someone thought he shouldn't have been. If I'm a hunter, and I'm on somebody else's land, and I don't see a sign, I don't know what to look for. And if someone walks up to me with a gun, saying, 'Get the "f" off my land, I'm not going to walk away with my back to this person."

That perception collides with Rice Lake Mayor Larry Jarvela's feelings about his town. He said there are "absolutely no problems" with racial tension in Rice Lake.

Jarvela, who is white, can't pin down how or why things could have escalated so intensely, or so tragically, in the woods. But it's not unexpected for coarse language to be exchanged with property owners and trespassers.

"It's pretty traditional that if you have a deer stand, and it's yours, there better not be anyone sitting in it," said Jarvela, himself a deer hunter.

"In the heat of discussion, you may make statements, but you don't really mean what you say," he said.

 
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"Login" | Login/Create an Account | 16 comments | Search Discussion
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Re: Race Divides Opinions of Vang Verdict (Score: 1)
by minotaar on Tuesday, September 20 @ 14:11:11 EDT
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Its sad, but in a sense, this is how we, as minorities change our image. How did people learn not to ***** with black guys? They fucked with black guys and got killed for it. Sure the guy went to jail or got executed, but no one forgets - you ***** with a black guy and you get killed.

No one in ***** bumble ***** rice lake is going to forget what happened when 8 white hunters fucked with an asian guy. He went ballistic, killed 6 of them, and pursued 2 others. The next time some white hunter runs into an asian hunter in the forest, they are going to be more ***** polite thats for sure. Its just a shame it has to happen this way. Everyone says you shouldnt be racist, but if you have to learn by watching people around you die, then so be it.

By the way, hunting for sport is a disgusting practice.



Re: Race Divides Opinions of Vang Verdict (Score: 1)
by chinmoku on Wednesday, September 28 @ 17:35:42 EDT
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These are some conclusions that can be drawn along with some things I read from various news sources:

(1) If what the white boys said was true (that they ran away), then they are cowards for running away.
(2) Mr. Vang is superior to the white boys because he was able to kill 6 of them even though it was 8 against 1.
(3) Statement (2) shows the inferiority of the white boys.
(4) The white people in rice lake were angry that the jury pool did not include anyone from that area.
(5) Statement (4) shows that even our government KNOWS that this was a racist act or rice lake white people would have been included in the jury pool.
(6) The court recognizes that Mr. Vang is not insane. What insane person would initiate a confrontation against EIGHT armed white boys?
(7) Because of statement (6), it must have been the white boys who were stepping to Mr. Vang.

In general, Mr. Vang handled himself appropriately. Not only was he defending himself, but he was doing a service to not only Hmong and Asians, but to humanity by killing those white boys.



Re: Race Divides Opinions of Vang Verdict (Score: 1)
by OppressedWhitey on Wednesday, September 28 @ 20:06:04 EDT
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It is hard to pass judgement without having the full details of this case and even with some basic research, I still have some questions.

However, being talked down to or racially abused (verbally) is no excuse for any violent behavior. Similarlly, just becuase he "felt" threatened was not a justification unless he was actually in fear of his life. Was he? I didn't see anything to suggest that. All I see is some guy saying he shouldn't have been talked to badly. How can anyone justify violence in that context?

I travel to alot of countries, including Asian ones. I encounter people who do not like me becuase I am white, sometimes they shout insults at me in their language (thinking I can't understand them, when I can). Does that mean I should pull out a weapon and start shooting people? When I am in a foreign culture, I have can't expect any sort of respect or fair treatment, nor am I entitled to any sort of "payback". I've felt threatened too, because I am in a foreign place around people who are not like me, yet I never resorted to violence just because I felt I might have been slighted in some way. If immigrants lack this basic philosophy, they have no business being here.

I wish people were nicer, tolerant, and more understanding but this isn't the way to accomplish it. Historically, minority groups that banned together and stood up for themselves in large numbers are the ones that fared the best. Why do you think there are large areas of Muslim people in Michigan, or lots of Jews in certian parts of New York or California? These groups did not use violence to gain tolerance in society, they gained self suffiency and eventually society threw away most of its prejudice towards them simply because there was no threat.

Basically, it boils down to the fact that we live in a civlized society. No one is entitled to anything other than the basic rights we all have.

(And just for some background, I am part Irish, my ancestors a few generations ago came to New York City and experienced lots of prejudice from - but none of us would justify violence in this type of situation, it doesn't accomplish anything).

My own personal background - I'm a white person (obviously) that has grown to dislike most of the 'American' culture that is associated with 'being white'. Most of my friends are not white becuase I have found them more sensible, rational, and less petty than the white people I have met. However, at the same time, I do not believe in this "white privilege" non-sense, in the face of so many things in society that exist to blatantly attack white people - such as affirmative action. The only "privilege" that exists is the privilege of being like everyone else. No one, especially white people, likes me or wants to associate with me becuase I don't hold the same values, have the same fashions, enjoy sports, etc like everyone else does.



Re: Race Divides Opinions of Vang Verdict (Score: 1)
by snorkel1 on Tuesday, October 04 @ 16:09:20 EDT
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i mentioned it the other day...

i was in a criminal court room the other day. after lunch the "racial seperated inmates" came to the cage.
it was blacks, asians, middle easterners. seperated from whites and mexicans who were together(??? grand plan of supremists??).

the guy who made it clear was an attorney who exclaimed to his client "we'll have to wait for your case, because the judge has to take of the racially seperated inmates first."

p.s. - looking on line at the inmates who were in custody alot of the southest asians guys were in for murder and gang relations. modelminority my a$$.

(http://www.ocsd.org/ is the website, look under e-services - who's in jail)

cooks every where white, black, asian, mexicans, middle easterners , etc...etc....

f@#k the white boys who were killed, and f@#k vang too. if they didn't find him guilty the other hmongs would have it even worst.

and for all u mr machos out there - u think white people are really afraid of blacks or any minority...i don't think so. if a race war ever broke out all us minorities would be down the f@#king drain in a minute. no orginization, no guns, no arms, no stockpile, no miltia, no troops, less f@#king cash, dream on mr. macho.....(wait a minute asian gangs - we could ask them!)


better to push for peace....and in my opinion it has to be enforced everywhere first in the prisons and jails so when the thugs return to society they will have at least some diversity training, to the schools, universities, business...everywhere in society. (who would not want that to happen or the question should be who is proliferating the racism??)

we have to try and fight the good fight no matter how f@#ked things can get. for now anyway, while we still have a chance for a better planet.

and also here on this website also.


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