Mark Millar Interviewby Ernie Estrella 2004-12-07
Mark Millar is a WANTED man. At the turn of the century, like Jeff Hostetler did with the 1990 New York Giants, he came off the bench to write The Authority after Warren Ellis' departure and guided it all the way to the Superbowl. He had proved himself to be a page-turner. But imagine trying to outdo a book that constantly had readers' pupils coming out of their retinas. Omnipotent superheroes cursing like sailors and slaughtering foes like butchers; not to mention having two them in an openly gay relationship. Mark Millar did it by being a major cog of Marvel's Ultimate Universe with the two titles, Ultimate X-Men and more significantly, The Ultimates, a contemporary overhaul of the Avengers. Then he trumped it all by writing one of the most provocative Superman stories in years (Red Son) which posed the question, what would Superman be if his rocket landed in the Soviet Union instead of Smallville? When everyone thought he was all about the big money shot, Millar went small and created three mini-series, The Unfunnies, The Chosen, and Wanted in an attempt to generate some interest in smaller companies and respectively published them at Avatar, Dark Horse, and Image. All were met with praise of the writer's diversity. Wanted has been optioned for a major motion film. With Brian Michael Bendis, he launched Ultimate Fantastic Four; and most recently in their own monthly titles, Millar has brought Wolverine and Spider-Man, believe it or not, even more attention. And yes, he's even worked with Rob Liefeld. He is one of comics' biggest hype machines, and most of the time, he backs it up. He discards his cancelled Trouble series simply as "Just wasn't very good. It was beautifully drawn, though." His written words are requested by readers and comic companies and to a writer, there is no bigger compliment. For PopCultureShock, it is his spoken word that we're interested in because he never avoids a question and always has something to say. And despite what you think of his work, hear him out, he just might surprise you. GODS AND MONSTERS Superheroes by their very nature are god-like. Larger-than-life beings doing unimaginable things. And no matter how big or small the story is, Millar excels at telling stories of the unimaginable, the miracle-makers, the superhero, which can come in many different forms. EE: Mark, you've bravely dabbled in religious stories first with The Saviour, The Authority and more recently with The Chosen. How challenging is it to approach a story with religious overtones? What is it about these stories that intrigues you or inspires you to write about such a touchy subject? MM: It's interesting because it never feels touchy to me. It feels very natural. The part of the world I grew up in was awash with religion and the Virgin Mary or St. Bartholomew or whomever was just a part of the landscape. My home town has a higher percentage of Catholics than anywhere else in Britain and the vast majority were church-going, from the snobs right down to the hooligans. It was just an intrinsic part of our lives and I feel very comfortable about it. Writing about religion feels as natural to me as writing about relationships or sports or fights or anything else from real life. I suppose where I grew up is fairly unusual in a global sense. EE: Garth Ennis got some flack for True Faith, and to a lesser degree with Preacher. Mike Allred is depicting the Book of Mormon. How difficult is it to make sure that a story is taken as just a religious fictional story versus a story that reflects someone's personal views and beliefs? MM: I think being straight is the way to go with this stuff. It's so easy to take the piss out of religion. I hate stuff that attacks the church. Not because the church doesn't need attacking, which it does in some cases, but because it's such an easy target. Stories that mock established religion in the present day is the last refuge of the mediocre. It was interesting thirty years ago and very brave a century ago, but now it's the most obvious and dull crutch. Some people were rubbing their hands together and, with my rep, couldn't wait to see what I was going to do with Chosen and I was pleased to surprise them and do something pretty low key and subdued. EE: Superman is about as god-like as one can get as far as superheroes go but it appears that no one wants to "worship" him like they once did. Why is it when Superman is written well or straight forward they don't seem to be approached well by the numbers? MM: I think it's because he hasn't been written well or straight in a long, long time. I love Superman more than any other work of fiction in movies or comics and I haven't been able to enjoy the books in fifteen years. No disrespect to the guys involved, because some of them are very good, but the Superman stories just don't work. They're approaching the character with a Marvel head and completely missing the point. Do Superman right and it would be the biggest comic in the world. Just write a Superman comic. You only have to see the reaction to Reeve dying to know how important he was to people and how he/Superman had touched their lives. EE: It seems that it's always about, 'How can we change or alter Superman' for mass appeal like in Smallville. Compare your Superman Adventures series with Superman Red Son. Are readers tired of the Superman archetype? MM: Exactly. My theory is that the people who've worked on Superman for the last generation just don't like him. They were telling stories about Lucy Lane's African American boyfriend instead of Superman. They were creating all these other superheroes to protect Metropolis and, God help us, the Metropolis Special Crimes Unit. If there was ever a city that only needed one hero it's Metropolis. But I think it all comes down to Marvel fans with good intentions. The Kirby stuff was the only material they could relate to and they used this plus all their own characters to crowd Superman out. And they'd kill him, change his costume, turn him into someone else or whatever to cover up for the fact they just didn't really like him much. When I eventually get my hands on Superman (and Hitchy feels the same way) we'll be coming at it as guys who grew up wanting to do this more than any other project in the world. EE: So is there a project in the works with Bryan to do ol' red and blue? MM: I've been putting together a proposal to revamp Superman since I was around ten or eleven. I'm not kidding. It's revised constantly, but right now there's two entire folders filled with very detailed notes and sketches. It's nice that Bryan and I eventually met because he's been doing much the same thing. It's our dream project, though we're unlikely to get there soon. I really enjoyed writing the alternate versions of Superman, but the only way we'd do the mains books is if we had complete control and were able to fix all the things that aren't working. We'd have to just start from scratch. TALKIN' 'BOUT MY GENERATION Imagine being a soldier during World War II and suddenly finding yourself thawing out of a block of ice some decades later into this world. A world where countries are still bullying others, wars are still being waged, but intentions are shrouded in smoke and mirrors. Some people might opt to be frozen back into a block and try their luck at another sixty years later. Millar's follow-up to The Authority had to be something big. After all, he was in the shadow of Warren Ellis' creation. So in 2003, what Millar helped create was Marvel's Ultimate Universe and with it, came the Ultimates, a modern look at the Avengers run by this country's current administration, with global threats familiar to our own. We experienced the Ultimates through Captain America, a man caught outside of his era, dealing with the world with the innocence of a simpler life, eventually realizing that despite all the good he had done in the world, it hasn't changed for the better. With the artist extraordinaire, Bryan Hitch, The Ultimates became the rage of 2003 and the second volume has just debuted in the beginning of December and besides all of the action lies something deeper. EE: Comics used to be used for propaganda especially in the 1940's-1960's, outside of the entertainment value, it gave artists the opportunity to express themselves. Lately, all forms of media seems to be succumbing to big business. Do you find it sad that the only way to make politically driven stories are in independent or self-published books? MM: That's not the case. Ultimates 2 is probably the most political book on the stands right now. Likewise, Red Son was a very obvious comment on pre-emptive strikes and hyper-powered countries taking over the world. If anything, I think the indie books shy away from this stuff and focus on the individual more than the socio-political. EE: Do you have any thoughts of or read Art Spiegelman and his latest work, In The Shadow of No Towers, The Red Star, or the works of Brian Wood or Ted Rall and what they are trying to say with their work? MM: Well, it's interesting that you picked these guys because Spiegelman tends to do graphic novels very, very sporadically and Wood and Rall are the exceptions rather than the rule of indie books. I honestly think the mainstream is much more political and much more interesting than the indie scene at the moment. There's a few good books, but either my interests just lie in the mainstream (which, by nature, most people do) or all the good indie people like Bendis and so on just got snapped up for Spider-Man or whatever. There's a funny snobbery from people as regards the worthiness of indie books compared to mainstream books and it's the same in cinema. A forty eight page graphic novel about what it's like to work in a convenience store is no weightier than a forty-eight page graphic novel about what it's like to be bitten by a radioactive spider. When I was first getting 'serious' about comics, I actually used to pretend to prefer indie stuff to the mainstream and did this with movies and music too, all the while watching flicks like Jaws and playing my ELO albums. The nice thing about hitting your thirties is realizing it's often all pose and 90% of indie books are as shit as 90% of mainstream books. There's good and bad on both sides and no inner-dignity to not selling well. Art has impressed me since the day I read Maus as a sixteen year old schoolboy and he and political cartoonist Steve Bell are the guys who really blow me away. EE: You mentioned Ultimates 2, there are some readers including myself who initially saw the Ultimates as how the Avengers should be done today because of all of years of lackluster stories. The Ultimates book was welcomed and it brought relevance back to the featured characters. After "Disassembled" the Avengers books in the main continuity appear solid, what relevance do the Ultimates have now? Outside of maintaining a presence within the Ultimate Universe, what do the Ultimates offer to readers that the Avengers doesn't already provide? And don't say a chance to see Samuel L. Jackson as Fury… MM: The books couldn't be more different. The idea behind The Avengers is that the Marvel Universe's biggest players all get together and fight all the biggest supervillains they can't find individually whereas Ultimates 2 is an exploration of what happens when a bunch of ordinary people are turned into super-soldiers and being groomed to fight the real-life war on terror. One is a superhero book on every level and the other doesn't feature a single super- villain. What's nice is that the casts are entirely different now too. Ultimates 2 just sticks to that classic Avengers cast so it's really amusing to me to see all the purists who used to think Hitch and I were the antichrist saying we're doing the classic Avengers book now. Oh, how things have changed. It's all good fun, though, and I dig both books. EE: Issue #1 of Ultimates 2 reminded me what it could be like if President Bush did have the Ultimates in his back pocket. Americans have already formed their divided opinions of the war, with Tony Blair standing next to Bush, how do the British, or probably easier for you to answer, how do you view the world climate? And will the past election be a part of Ultimates 2? MM: The worry in Ultimates 2, as the heroes talk among themselves, is that the whole thing has been a scam. They've been created to fight this pre-emptive war across the Middle East, according to Thor, and I'm using them as an allegory for the American people. My feeling is that over the next year some kind of incident will happen or be arranged that prompts a nationwide call for the draft and pre-emptive strikes on Syria, North Korea, Iran and all the world hot spots. This isn't such a conspiracy theory here in Europe. Many mainstream politicians are very skeptical of what happening and worried about even the short-term consequences for the world. In the name of oil, this administration is stirring up a hornet's nest and, even though I'm a huge optimist, I think we're heading for some kind of Armageddon. I just can't see a good way out of this situation and, after decades of seeing Britain try to deal with the IRA, I know you don't defeat terrorists by killing their families. My own belief is that there'll be a couple of nuclear attacks in the States, the multinationals will move elsewhere, the American economy will completely collapse and make the 30s look like the 80s and the Middle East will be occupied by drafted teenagers from your home town. But don't get me started. I hope I'm completely and utterly wrong. I suspect we turned a corner on November 3rd and America just has to live with the consequences of that now. ROCK THE CASBAH Millar first broke onto the US scene with Legends of the Dark Knight #79 under the tutelage of the late great Archie Goodwin who saw something in him during the comic implosion of the mid-1990's. The Scottish scribe would later assist fellow countryman, Grant Morrison on Aztek: The Ultimate Man, Swamp Thing, and The Flash. But his beginnings were where they all started, Garth Ennis, Peter Milligan, Andy Diggle, Mike Carey, and the lists goes on for those who wrote for the British sci-fi anthology, 2000 AD and Judge Dredd, the breeding grounds for these talents. Sooner or later they make it big and Millar's time would eventually come. EE: How underrated are the 2000AD comics and the Judge Dredd comics? With such a pool of talent written for those series, why do you think those works haven't hit a larger appeal here? MM: I'm really not interested in 2000AD at all, but it was very good in the late 70s and early 80s. The stuff I did was absolute rubbish, though. I was just out of school and didn't know what I was doing. EE: Through failure or persistence artists and writers can grow. What did you learn professionally or personally out of producing what you call, rubbish? MM: I never, ever read my old stuff. And when I say old I mean last month's book. I've never read a single one of them because I constantly think of ten ways I'd have done it better. So in that sense I think you're always kind of disappointed with what you've done because you always want it to be better and matching that initial spark that entered your head. I appreciate that Chosen, Wanted, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Red Son and The Ultimates are probably the best things I've done, but I've honestly never re-read them. I spend about 2 weeks on each issue and constantly review so I can could probably quote them back to you anyway. Comics is a learning process like any other job. The minute you think you've got it right is the minute you should probably retire because it just means you've given up trying. EE: It seems that all of the great UK writers have done something creator-owned for Vertigo recently. I know that you worked on Swamp Thing some years back but in recent years Morrison, Ennis, Milligan, Carey have all done something for Vertigo, are you looking to join that group or are you hoping that some of these mainstream projects funnel a crowd to work like the Chosen, Unfunnies, etc.? MM: No, Vertigo is a ghetto now. A hit at Vertigo is selling 18-25K and I just don't want to focus on such a small readership. Your hands are also tied in the sense that it's still owned by a big company and I could never have done a book like Chosen there. Or at Marvel, for that matter. I took a huge risk going with all the smaller companies for those books and didn't get paid for six months (the wife love THAT), but I really believe in the smaller companies. They're what keep the big companies honest. Image was created for a reason, you know. EE: How is it that writers from the UK write such quality work that is based in the USA? Is it that easy to know what Americans want? How is your work received in the UK compared to here? MM: We live in a global village and that village has an American flag so it's pretty easy to write for America because we all watch the same TV shows, read the same books and see the same movies. It's Hollywoodland as far as the eye can see, baby. Fortunately, my stuff sells pretty well here too. Forbidden Planet in London has a Millar section I saw just last month and I felt oddly moved. It was really nice. EE: Explain that a bit more if you will; Comic book fame. A fame that outside of comic shops and conventions, geeky internet communities and a few Hollywood circles, doesn't exist. MM: But isn't that the perfect kind of fame? I'd rather be a writer or director than a movie star because nobody gives a rat's ass about them. It's nice, though slightly surreal, to be at a book signing or a convention where people are lining up to get you to sign their stuff and then you take twenty steps outside the door and get a reality check. Comic fame is so tiny. We're not even as famous as the least famous guy on some bad reality TV show. He's a hundred times more famous than we'll ever be so that kind of puts things in perspective and should stop anyone getting too big-headed. That said, it's always nice to have something you work hard on get appreciated. It's also weird when writers or directors or actors, as you mention, come up and say they read your stuff. You create these books in a bubble so when I heard from Sam Jackson's wife that he loves Ultimates or Affleck says he collects Marvel Knights Spider-Man or something I always feel like I'm getting Punk'd. But the sun even shines on a dog's arse every once in a while. I'm just lucky it's my turn at the moment. EE: In the eyes of readers you went from being Grant Morrison's apprentice of a sort to becoming Mr. Authority and tag-teaming the Ultimate universe with Joe Quesada, Bill Jemas, and Brian Bendis almost overnight. Is it easier to get a project greenlit now? Knowing you have a fan base now, does that serve any more pressure to deliver? MM: I always feel the pressure and when I don't that's when I quit and go do something else. Ultimates will probably be at a sales peak when we leave and everyone says we're nuts. Likewise, Wolvie's selling better than it has in years, but I've forced myself to leave after 12 issues even though I'm having a great time. I hate the idea of coasting. As a reader shelling out three bucks a pop for issue 30 of some guy's 60 issue run it just drives me nuts to see them taking it easy and deliver a good issue every four months. It makes the job harder and much less secure, but I think the best work is always done when you're slightly nervous and have to prove yourself. COME WITH US…AND LEAVE YOUR HERDS BEHIND In addition to Ultimates 2, Millar gets his crack at Marvel's equivalent of Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson by writing the monthly Wolverine and Marvel Knights Spider-Man titles and he's swinging for the fences. One thing is common in both is that he's stacked the odds against the hero and readers are baited to see how Millar writes himself out of these jams. Another commonality in his books are the artists which he collaborates with are amongst every writer's wish list: John Romita Jr., Terry and Rachel Dodson, Bryan Hitch, to list a few. EE: Two of your titles feature Wolverine and Spider-Man, Marvel's most stretched characters, (both are even on the New Avengers roster) why write these two characters, and why now? MM: I want to work my way around a few characters. I've done Spidey and Wolvie so now I'll have a bash at Cap, FF or whomever. There's no real plan. I'm just having a good time. EE: Do you as a reader think that there are too many Spider-Man and X-Men titles? MM: There's as many as people want. Trust the market. The minute people don't want them they go away because the sales aren't being sustained. The sales figures weed out what people don't want pretty quickly. EE: What bothers you more, those who read to react or get offended, or those who don't read at all? MM: Neither bother me at all. I just write my stuff. EE: You consider yourself a very visual storyteller, approaching it from the artistic and plot side versus the dialogue. Of the fan-favorite artists that you currently collaborate with or have collaborated with, how well have they captured what you the writer envisioned? MM: Some of the early ones were awful. Sometimes even I couldn't tell what was happening and I wrote the bloody thing. But the guys I've worked with over the last few years have been incredible. The best in the business. I'm really, really lucky. EE: Bryan Hitch really sets the bar for widescreen art, and JR Jr. is a dream when it comes to layout design, what is it about the Dodsons that maybe people miss, or Frank Quitely who is a love him/ hate him type artist? MM: Different strokes for different folks. I love them all. I call this The Club. There are only ten great artists at any one time and I've worked with so many bad guys that now I only fuck within The Club. Fuck outside The Club and these artists don't want to know you, but they all want in on the action when they see you with a pretty little Bryan Hitch or a tasty Quitely. It's like that episode of Seinfeld where George figures out that dating an attractive women is a way to attract OTHER attractive women. LET'S GET DOWN TO BRASS TACKS, GENTLEMEN It wouldn't be a PCS interview if we didn't talk about pop culture and Millar is well-known for dropping bits of this movie and that song in his books. So we close this interview with that and try to figure out who is actually reading this stuff. EE: Besides the titles you work on, name five titles that are doing it right, and five titles that are doing it wrong. MM: Five titles doing it very right are Ex Machina, Planetary, Superman-Batman, Iron Man and Superman: Birthright. The ones doing it wrong are staying in my head because it's uncool to bitch in public. A lot of books are really living on the breadline. I've been there and used to sit every month with my stomach in knots waiting to see if we were cancelled. Superman Adventures kept around 500 sales over cancellation point for my entire bloody run and I wouldn't wish that one anyone. Good buzz can help a book, but bad buzz can kill it and I'm lucky enough to be in a good position within the industry right now. I don't mind talking about trends and books from five or ten years ago, but bitching about a current title is just bad form. EE: Mark, you like to drop pop culture references in your comic work. You've even mentioned that the arcs of Ultimate X-Men and The Ultimates were modeled after films. Do it sparingly and the comics can be capsules of what was contemporary at that time. Do it too much and it becomes a crutch or gimmick. How do you walk that line? Do you ever think, "I've referenced too much" especially in your Ultimates work? How do you think those works will stand over time, say ten years from now? MM: I just write about the world I live in. I don't consciously add pop refs. I just write about what I see around me. It's an odd complaint because no one ever says 'he references too many old comics' whenever I'll add lots of fanboy easter eggs. However, the minute you start popping in things from the world outside your window people feel like parallel universes are colliding. It's quite interesting. EE: Do you think that is because many of the readers today don't have the reference or the pleasure of reading comics from yester-years? Films are so easy identifiable due to their commercial access. In a sense, there has been new readership but I think some of the old school readers don't read much of the new material and vice versa. And as a result we have lost the long-time readers of comics as well as the youths. Perhaps the twenty-somethings, who are the freshest comic fan base are at the same age when some become film buffs and react to recognizing those refs more than anything else. MM: No, I really don't think this is the case at all. It's an interesting theory, this idea that we want to rejoice in our geekiness because comics is the only place we'll ever see in-jokes about Yellowjacket or whatever, but I suspect it's more to do with keeping comics as a closed community. I've known guys in comic stores who just hate new readers. I've seen women especially coming in and asking for something and the owners rolling their eyes, correcting them and making them feel like idiots and those chicks never came back. I think, deep down and on some level, we just like our little club and there's a part of us that just doesn't want to open up to the mainstream. It's cool because it's ours and it's our retreat from the real world. The moment the real world comes knocking on our door it sends lots of people into a panic. However, Hollywood is eating up what we're doing and licensing our characters and hiring our creators. I suppose it's only fair that we employ some of their tricks in return. The books that employ movie tricks in terms of structure or visuals or pacing tend to vastly outsell the other books- at least in the direct market- so it's clearly working. That said, I've noticed a massive shift in my own stuff these last 12 months where the work has become much more content heavy. In a bid to bring in new readers, we were almost holding their hands for a couple of years with the Ultimate books in particular. But this was essential. We had to show them things were nice and simple and we brought them in on the ground floor. A lot of other creators didn't get this and deliberately tried to be more obtuse in reaction, completely missing the point and completely alienating the majority of their readership. But now we have all those entry level books like Ultimate Spider-Man and The Ultimates we can get a little more ambitious and make them work a little harder as they read the books. Wolverine almost reads like twelve self-contained one-shots in some ways. Ultimates 2 is very, very dense. There's a lot in here. Comics are expensive and my ambition for 05 is to make people feel like they got a bargain when they shelled out their cash. EE: Thanks, Mark on behalf of myself and PopCultureShock for doing the interview and good luck with your current and future work. It's been a pleasure! MM: Cheers, Ernie. Anytime.
· The Authority #13-20 (DC/Wildstorm 1999-2001) And, of course, be sure to visit MillarWorld.net |