Originally published September 4, 1992, in Comics Buyer’s Guide #981
A curious and depressing sequence of events…
In Oh So?, there’s a mini-debate over what constitutes something as being mythic.
Word starts circulating among fan magazines that Superman is going to die.
Joe Shuster dies.
Bill Mantlo is rollerblading and struck by a car. He remains in a coma for several weeks and the prognosis for a full recovery is not good.
All of which would seem to relate to the human spirit, the need for myths, and the need to be remembered. For myths are more than stories. Myths are stories that edge their way into the collective consciousness, stories that surpass their creators.
Stories that become fact.
When I was in Calgary some weeks back, I saw a commercial that featured a young Canadian boy boarding a train that was going to take him to America—Cleveland, presumably, since the boy was identified as Joe Shuster. The commercial has the excited young Shuster (already a teen) babbling to an older woman named Lois about this character he’s created that can leap tall buildings, bend steel, etc., etc. Lois is patient but skeptical. Just as the train pulls away, Joe tosses to Lois a quick drawing of the dynamic character who is bursting from his imagination– and who will shape an industry for the next half century and more.
It’s a fanciful little commercial. After all, although Canadian born, Shuster in fact grew up in Cleveland. And he did have just a of help from childhood friend Jerry Siegel in creating the character that they would sell to National Periodicals for $130 as teens, which must have seemed like all the money in the world to them at the time. A deal that, with twenty/twenty hindsight, was the biggest rip-off since the legendary sale of Manhattan for a couple of bucks worth of chachkas.
In 1978, DC Comics was publicly humiliated into doing something approximating the right thing. With Siegel and the now-legally blind Shuster as walking Exhibits #1 and #2 against the comic industry business practices, DC restored their creator-credits and awarded them stipends of $20,000 a year for life, which allowed Shuster to move to a modest Los Angeles apartment.
To my mind, a stipend in the neighborhood of $200,000 a year would have been a bit more like it, so that he could move into a mansion. Even better: Imagine the publicity value of handing each of them a check for a million dollars in front of a cheering throng of press. The movie Superman, which came out that year, brought in $82.5 million from ticket sales and subsequent video rentals, so the words “drop in a bucket” come to mind.
But I digress.
I was talking about myths and legends.
It’s a nice bit of irony that the Canadian commercial serves to start building a myth around the co-creator of what is arguably one of two America-generated 20th Century popular fictions that has crossed over into mythic status.
Yes, myths. I believe that Superman elevates Siegel and Shuster into the same pantheon as whoever first spun the stories of Zeus et al; or Chretien de Troyes, the French romance writer who decided in 1180 that what the tales of Camelot really needed was the great French literary tradition of the cuckolded husband.
And so de Troyes added Lancelot (a Frenchman, of course) to the Round Table for the purpose of bagging Arthur’s queen.
T.H. Gastor states that a myth is a story or series of stories that serves as an underpinning for a society–a society being defined as two or more people.
And it’s not only that. For something to become a myth, it has to worm its way into the collective consciousness of Joe Average as “fact.” There’s no absolute point of demarcation. It just sort of… happens.
(The second American myth, besides Superman, in case you’re wondering, is Star Trek. With the entire fan-run “Starfleet” throughout the country, predicated on the structure and philosophies of the show, I think Gastor would unquestionably define Star Trek as a myth. In terms of how it “factually” fits in to the thesis, read on.)
For example: Ask your average guy… “Who is Fonzie?”
The average response is, “He was this character on a show called Happy Days, played by Henry Winkler.”
Now: Ask your average guy, “Who is James T. Kirk?”
The chances are, the response you’ll get is, “He’s the Captain of the original Enterprise.” And you just know that when he says, “Original Enterprise,” he’s not referring to the 70-ton British sloop that cruised Lake Chaplain during the American revolution, supplying British posts in Canada; was subsequently captured by one Benedict Arnold and then used in valorous combat against the British until it was beached and burned July 7, 1777.
No, he’s talking about a starship… something that doesn’t in fact exist, but is discussed as if it did.
Or ask your average guy, “Who is Superman?”
And the response you will likely get is, “He’s a strange visitor from another planet, with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men.” Or, “Well, he’s a superhero, and in his secret identity he’s Clark Kent, a mild-mannered reporter.”
There’s no qualifier. Your average response will not be something to the effect of, “He’s a comic book character.” Instead you’ll get just as straight-forward a response as if you asked Joe Average to tell you about his mother, or a friend of his.
The starship Enterprise, registry number NCC-1701, is a “fact,” as real to some people (even though “deep down” they know it’s just a TV show) as the aircraft carrier Enterprise, registry number CVN-65. Superman’s origin is a “fact.” That he is Clark Kent is a “fact.”
And I would like to think that, to teenager Siegel and Shuster, he was also a fact. The best, the greatest creative minds are those who are able to transmit their own sense of belief in their fictions to their audience, so that the audience will believe as well. The technical term for this is “suspension of disbelief.” The romantic term for this is “myth making.”
Joe Shuster visualized a myth. He told an interviewer that “There aren’t many people who can honestly say they’ll be leaving behind something as important as Superman.” This simple, irrefutable statement touches on the two most incredible aspects of Joe Shuster’s life. First, that he was part of creating something that was far greater than himself. And second, that he would be remembered for it.
Which brings me to Bill Mantlo.
The most recent time (I refuse to say “the last time”) that I spoke to Bill was about two, maybe three months ago. He called me because in recently published interviews, when I’d been asked about origins for the Hulk’s multiple personality disorder storyline, I had cited Bill’s ingenious one-issue story that detailed Bruce Banner’s history of being an abused childhood. I said how Bill had come up with something that was, to me, groundbreaking, and how the first forty or so issues of my run had sprung directly from Bill’s concept.
To me, this was simply answering the question. Just the same as when people say, “What made you turn the Hulk back to gray in the first place?” and I always respond, “Nothing. Al Milgrom did that. I just took it and ran with it.”
But Bill was extremely pleased and flattered that I had mentioned him in such glowing terms.
And he said, “It’s nice that someone remembers.”
It’s nice that someone remembers.
It’s better than nice. It’s what many creators—writers, artists, what-have-you—are trying to do during their relatively brief time in this sphere. They’re trying to create something of permanence. Trying to produce something that will be part of someone’s consciousness long after they themselves are dust.
To be part of something that’s bigger than themselves.
People are not remembered. People are never remembered.
It’s the accomplishments of people that are remembered.
One of my favorite moments in all of movies is in a marvelous little film called The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao, based on the book The Circus of Dr. Lao by Charles G. Finney. Tony Randall stars as the title character, and additionally portrays six other as the citizens of a small western town in the late 19th century are made to realize unpleasant truths about themselves through the Doctor’s circus.
The most moving, heart-rending sequence is when a fluttery, matronly woman visits Apollonius, a blind fortune teller played (of course) by Randall, who is accursed always “to speak the absolute truth.” The woman, who had entertained notions of remarrying or striking oil, listens to her future quietly, irrevocably dashed to pieces by the seer. In slow horror she realizes that when he says there will be no new men, when he says that the land she purchased in hopes of finding oil would yield nothing, he speaks the hideous truth.
And then he quietly, sorrowfully, but implacably passes judgment on her life by concluding, “You will turn to dust, and be forgotten. And for all that you have accomplished in your life, good or evil… you might just as well have never lived at all.”
That’s part of the fun of working within a mythic universe such as the Star Trek universe or the Marvel or DC universe.
Something with an established history, and a following that considers the stories to be more than just stories. As much as I enjoy the books that I’ve written or am writing that are all mine, both published and not published, I also get great satisfaction out of producing things like my current Star Trek novel that explores the previously unrevealed history of Commander Riker and Deanna Troi.
Because for some readers, they’re not going to read it and say, “Nice story.” Instead they’ll say, “Ohhh! That’s how it happened! That’s how they met!” For those people, it’s more than just a story. It’s a series of events that actually occurred, somewhere in the great myth-mind of Star Trek history, and I’m simply reporting on it.
But Joe Shuster was more than a reporter. He, along with Jerry Siegel, was a newsmaker. Whereas myself or Bill Mantlo can hope that we’re remembered, Joe Shuster guaranteed that he will be. He’ll be remembered by people who never even heard of him, because he co-created Superman. Even though DC endeavored to take that away from Siegel and Shuster in 1947, the corporate entity couldn’t succeed in doing that. The annual stipend thirty years later was simply a monetary acknowledgement of that.
Siegel and Shuster created something that was greater than themselves. The two teenagers from Cleveland were concerned about their lives. Superman’s concerns were, and are, on a galactic (if not universal scale). And eventually, Superman, strange visitor from another planet, would belong to the world.
But Siegel and Shuster belonged to Superman.
(Peter David, writer of stuff, is heading out to San Diego this week. He will see all of you… or will have already seen all of you there… or… oh, skip it.)
Footnote from the BID book collection:
As of this writing, Bill Mantlo is still alive, but mentally incapacitated. They say that where there’s life, there’s hope. But sometimes where there’s life, there’s also great cruelty.
This reminds me of watching an episode of Smallville with my wife, I watched it religiously for the first 2 or 3 seasons and then stopped, my wife continued and enjoys it thoroughly. One night I watched with her and in that episode Lois Lane was introduced, my wife hated her, and I loved her. I annoyed her to no ends by referring to Lois as “the one”, the “future Mrs. Kent”
My wife had only known Lana Lang and liked the character, but I knew the entire myth already. Did I like “Lois” the character that was introduced in Smalllville or “Lois” the myth that I know.
Here’s hoping for the best for Mr. Mantlo.
I miss Mantlo.
I’ve asked both Tom Brevoort and Joe Q. on the CBR forums about doing a Bill Mantlo Hulk Visionaries set, and giving part of the profits to help with his continued lifetime care.
“No plans at the moment.” was Brevoort’s response.
So hopefully the seeds have been planted to start one…
James Lansberry is correct. Bill Mantlo is owed at least that amount of respect.
Peter, you also mentioned that Barry Windsor-Smith may have had something to do with the Bruce Banner abuse angle. How did he play into it? Did he draw that issue?
BWS claims that Mantlo swiped a proposed Hulk story he had written out and sketched out.
Here’s a link to from Hulkmovie.com:
http://www.hulkmovie.com/news/08_27b_03.htm
I remember hearing about it, but never saw any sketches for it before.
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Hulk wasn’t even the highpoint for me. Bill Mantlo’s Rom, Micronauts and Shogun Warriors were by far more fun and bigger deals to me than any superhero books of the time. and I flat out loved Rom and Micronauts. There are still entire issues that he wrote where I can recite the dialogue almost word for word to this day because of the ridiculous number of times I read some issues over and over and over again.
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He made some really fun books and, more importantly, he told some really good stories.
He did Shogun Warriors? Hunh! Might have to check that out.
Yeah, I’m reading both Rom and Micronauts right now, and I’d love to see them remastered and thrown into a trade set. Sucks that the rights are a nightmare to get a hold of to try it.
I don’t understand why Marvel doesn’t just buy ROM outright. Parker Brothers never made a dime from the character aside from the royalties Marvel paid. And they’ve made no use of the property since the series ended. Surely whoever controls the rights now has no prospect of making any money unless it comes from Marvel, so they should be willing to either sell or sign a long-term lease for a relatively low price. I know Marvel isn’t likely to make a lot from ROM if they do get the rights back, so I can understand why they wouldn’t want to pay much. But the current owners won’t make anything otherwise, so a low price should be good enough. If they think Marvel might get a movie or TV series about ROM in the future, they could always include a provision for more royalties under such a circumstance. They shouldn’t have to demand a high price now.
Mary, you are exactly right on. When people talk about what the next big Marvel movie property should be I always think that ROM would make a perfectly awesome film.
It’s interesting that all the comments are about Mantlo, even though he was just a minor part of the original essay.
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I didn’t know Mantlo was brain damaged until a few years ago, when I heard some mention of a book intended to raise money for him. I didn’t know how it had happened until now, and I had no idea it happened so long ago.
I don’t know why I didn’t hear about it back then. I was reading comic books at the time, but I don’t recall it being mentioned in any Bullpen pages or anything. I wonder why.
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I have to admit that I was never a big Mantlo fan. I first started paying real attention to who wrote which story in the ’80s, and by that time I was already old enough to be annoyed by the more juvenile aspects of Mantlo’s writing, particularly the stiff dialogue with the blatant exposition, and the ridiculousness of many of his storylines. Not to mention that many of his stories seemed to be tossed off in a hurry, without a great deal of thought or planning, especially his fill-ins.
But over time I have come to respect his many good points. He could be very good with characterisation. He was good at juggling multiple subplots, keeping them all straight and letting each one progress at its natural pace. He was very good for digging up old plot-threads that everyone had forgotten and tying them up together in unexpected ways. He paid close attention to what happened in other Marvel books, so that when he used guest appearances (which was frequently) they would be up to date and wouldn’t contradict what was happening in their own books. He sent his characters around the world and introduced many international characters– he was one of the few writers to realise that the US was not the entire world. He created Cloak and Dagger. He created everything to do with ROM other than the barest character design provided by Parker Brothers.
I still think that he was a hack most of the time, but he was a great hack, and that isn’t really a bad thing. His stories were mostly formulaic, but original ideas would pop up unexpectedly now and then, some of them were brilliant.
Mary,
I think the reason a majority of the posts are about Mantlo is that A.) the story of Shuster and Siegel is common;y known by now and B.) While it seems to be a given that they were screwed – there is some debate on that – and at least they eventually got unscrewed. Forget about the money a moment. Anyone who opens a Superman comic today knows that it was created by Siegel and Shuster. That is pretty significant.
Mantlo’s story, however, is truly tragic. However you want to analyze his work, the simple fact is that he is the writer that made comics an addiction for me. Yes, I had written comics tat enthralled me before, like Gerry Conway’s Spidey and Len Wein’s Hulk. But it wasn’t until I picked up his “Incredible Hulk” #264 that I was truly on the road to being a die-hard comic fan for life.
While what drew me in was a cover that I thought was cool, though it was primitive by today’s standards and had word balloons having the Hulk say, “You hurt children! You hurt girl! Now Hulk will hurt you!” I was enormously entertained as an 11-year-old by what was inside the covers. Bruce Banner trying to be rid of his curse. Acolorful flying villain who accidentally hurt Betty, stoking the Hulk’s rage to a fever pitch, his being denied of vengenace, which only added to it and the Corruptor taking advantage of the situation to control the Hulk.
The next issue had Rick Jones sending out a distress signal to the Avengers, which for fanciful reasons never reached them, but instead reached other individuals – Texas Tornado, Red Wolf, Shooting Star, Firebird and Night Rider.
Though many will laugh and call such characters “C-Listers” (God, how I hate the proliferation of this term and it’s siblings, “D-Listers”, “F-Listers” – every character has the potential to be great if written well. Besides, firebirdwas an Avenger for a while), they were fun and fresh and mantlo imbued them with enough characterization to make you care about them.
After that, I had to get the issues immediately preceding. there was a character who could turn men into glass, and a cool battle between the Hulk, Avalanche and Landslide. I have yet to see the former portrayed as formidable as he was then and I don’t recall seing the latter since.
I did not live near a comic store at the time – but my cousin dis and she got me more great Mantlo Hulks that i had missed, classic battles with Thor and the Absorbig Man, the first appearance of the U-Foes and the Hulk trotting the globe and encountering the Soviet Super Soldiers, the Arabian Knight and Sabra.
Unlike many of today’s comics, each subsequent issue of the Hulk tied into the previous one, but was easily accessible to those who had never picked up a comic in their lives. part of that may have been the exposition you’re talking about. But you always felt you were getting a full story in each issue as the Hulk took on the High Evolutionary, Glorian, Pariah, the Nightstalkers, the Galaxy master and engaged in one of his most memorable fights with the Abomination, who popped up much less frequently back then. then, of course, there was the Hulk-with-banner’s-brain-storyline, the Hulk saving the earth, being granted Amnesty and being praised by everyone; a romance with SHIELD agent Katherine waynesboro; touching stories that couldn’t have been done with the savage Hulk; manipulation by Nightmare into Brice Banner committing suicide, leading to a mindless Hul, a classic “Hulk” #300 and eventual banishment by dr. Strange to the Crossroads, where he stayed for a year’s worth of fresh stories.
I, too, enjoyed his “Rom” immensely. And his Spidey, though I didn’t like the way he handled the exit of Deb Whtman. I thought it would be neat for her to become what MJ eventually became: the friend/girlfriend who knows his secret. But, curiously, he didn’t cal a pre-teen for his advice on what should be done with the character.
In short, I probably would have gotten immersed in comics no matter what, but I DEFINITELY did because of the enjoyable tales he crafted ad that I rushed home to read. As a result, I now have thousands of comics by hundreds of writers and artists ha have not only given me untold enjoyment, but which has resulted in me writing about comics for nearly twenty years, writing about them for a major newspaper for nearly ten and writing about them on a weekly basis for said newspaper for close to four years – which has led many people to start reading comics for the first time or to pick up something they otherwise wouldn’t have because of something I wrote.
Which just proves there are many ripples where ceators like Bill mantlo are concerned. (And I feel your use of the term hack is a bit harsh. I just finished my first script for a comic that will be announced in next week’s Previews. It is easy to criticize, hard to do).
Speaking of which, I have tried introducing my fiance’s 10-year-old to comics. usually, he’ll want a figure or something – anything but the actual comics themselves.
Then, to my amazement, he said I’ll pick this because the robot looks cool! Was it “Battlestar Galactica” or “termnator” from Dynamite? “Transformers” from IDW? No. It was issue #1 of…”Rom”.
Maybe he’ll only find the issue mildly amusing…or maybe the legacy of Bill Mantlo is that he is still turning people onto the comic book medium with his skill.
I truly wish I was able to tell him, “Thank you”.
Sorry. I didn’t mean to come across quite as harshly as I did. I was simply trying to explain the low opinion I had of Mantlo’s writing for quite some time, but how I’d gradually learned to appreciate his good points more. I thought ‘hack’ was an adequate term to describe his overall style, provided I specified that he was a ‘great hack’ (which is a much better thing to be than all the self-important writers who aim for ‘significance’ and ‘high art’ and fail miserably). I know ‘hack’ is generally a negative term, but I thought the meaning was clear enough it could be used positively.
Sorry.
I have that Hulk issue with the creation of the Rangers. Firebird did develope into a great character later, and Mantlo’s depiction of her, brief as it was, was the foundation she was built upon.
Something I should have brought up before is that although Mantlo’s stories tended to have a juvenile feel to them, he was never afraid to introduce mature story elements. He was definitely the most open about Northstar’s sexuality before Marvel finally let it be stated clearly, and I heard once that he even got into trouble for that.
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By the way, the bookstore I go to (not the comic book store, the regular one) started selling old comics really cheap again. I was there today, and I did buy a couple of ROMs. I haven’t read them yet, but I see that one of them features Nova. I didn’t know anybody used Nova during the early ’80s. One of Mantlo’s strengths was that he was always bringing back characters everyone else had forgotten.
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“I was simply trying to explain the low opinion I had of Mantlo’s writing for quite some time, but how I’d gradually learned to appreciate his good points more. I thought ‘hack’ was an adequate term to describe his overall style, provided I specified that he was a ‘great hack’ (which is a much better thing to be than all the self-important writers who aim for ’significance’ and ‘high art’ and fail miserably).”
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Yeesh…
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I left that one alone before to avoid bringing more notice to it than it would already get and because I wanted to avoid the flaming that I thought might start. The term “hack” isn’t quite what I think you think it is.
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A writer who is being called a hack hack, someone who is “hacking it” out, is usually being called that because they are not giving it their all or they are deliberately doing substandard work because they don’t really care to do better. So, as I’m sure you can guess, calling someone a “great hack” isn’t much of a complement either.
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I can now see what you were trying to say, but the wording was waaaaaayyyy off from what you were trying to get across.
Mary
The first time I heard about Bill and the accident, was in one of Mark Gruenwald’s colums in the bullpen bulletins for the month of July 1993. I hope that will give you some idea where to start looking.
Thanks. They had a weekly Bullpen page in that time period, but I only have two issues from that month. So I guess I just missed that week.
PAD,
“And then he quietly, sorrowfully, but implacably passes judgment on her life by concluding, “You will turn to dust, and be forgotten. And for all that you have accomplished in your life, good or evil… you might just as well have never lived at all.””
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Tell me, PAD, if you would, is that where you got the line in the “Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man” issue where Spider-Man’s wife, after his death, confronts the woman who felt he was stalking her? Because it was a really powerful line.
Mary,
“I didn’t know Mantlo was brain damaged until a few years ago, when I heard some mention of a book intended to raise money for him. I didn’t know how it had happened until now, and I had no idea it happened so long ago.
I don’t know why I didn’t hear about it back then. I was reading comic books at the time, but I don’t recall it being mentioned in any Bullpen pages or anything. I wonder why.”
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I heard about it shortly after the accident happened. Like many, I hoped and prayed he would get better. I am still hopeful, but obviously chances of a recovery are not great at this point in time.
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And Mary, I hope I didn’t come off as too harsh in my response to your term of “hack”. I just felt it was a negative term and wanted to counter it. You certainly weren’t vicious about it.
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Sadly, there have been a couple people in my life – pretty close friends at one time – who were pretty vicious. One even made cruel “jokes” that no one thought was funny about his condition. Obviously, a couple insensitive comments about Mantlo would not have ended our friendships, but in both cases it gave a good indication about each person’s character and was just one more reason why I decided to spend my time with and interacting with other people.
You weren’t harsh. You were quite nice and very clear about your objection.
And I never meant to imply that what happened to Mantlo was not a tragedy. Even if he’d been a writer I utterly detested (which was never the case), I would still feel sadness for what happened.
I see what Mary was saying–a lot of Mantlo’s stories just seemed like nothing more then “time to write another story” stuff. he is way down on the list of my favorite writers (and some of the “more adult” stuff he did for the Warren mags I absolutely detested.)
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And yet…and yet…I’m with Jerome in that I read a ton of Mantlo books at a time that really solidified my love for the Marvel Universe and he is a major reason why I got into fandom and all the resultant friends and other good stuff. I would still pick Micronauts and ROM over most books published today, even some written by writers I have a far greater opinion for. He’s like one of those journeymen directors who worked constantly and produced a large body of work, much of it forgettable but sometimes truly inspired. And as others have mentioned, he had a real feel for integrating his stories into the larger picture. the Marvel Universe was built on that kind of foundation.
“Imzadi” was one of your best works, in case no one has told you lately 🙂
Bill,
“I see what Mary was saying–a lot of Mantlo’s stories just seemed like nothing more then “time to write another story” stuff.”
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Can you cite an example or elaborate?
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” he is way down on the list of my favorite writers (and some of the “more adult” stuff he did for the Warren mags I absolutely detested.)”
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Not familiar with the Warren stuff, but..way down the list of your favorite writers? That is kind of a back-handed compliment. On one hand you’re saying he’s on a list of not only writers you like, but your favorite writers. On the other hand, you say he is “way down” that list.
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I think I know what you mean. There are precious few writers – and even fewer artists – who, when I see their name on a comic it automatically makes me not want to buy it. So you’re saying you definitely didn’t feel that way.
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“And yet…and yet…I’m with Jerome in that I read a ton of Mantlo books at a time that really solidified my love for the Marvel Universe”
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Yes!
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” and he is a major reason why I got into fandom and all the resultant friends and other good stuff.”
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” I would still pick Micronauts and ROM over most books published today, even some written by writers I have a far greater opinion for.”
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Okay. I found this statement curious. Are you saying a lot of the writers you like better are more hit or miss in regards to quality and that Mantlo was more steady, that a lot of the writers you prefer can be too dark or what?
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“He’s like one of those journeymen directors who worked constantly and produced a large body of work, much of it forgettable but sometimes truly inspired.”
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never thought about “journeymen directors” before. I know about “journeymen ballplayers” and character actors. But I think you have a better knowledge of film than I do just judging from previous threads. Can you provide an example of someone you consider to be a journeyman director? I’m genuinely curious.
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“And as others have mentioned, he had a real feel for integrating his stories into the larger picture. the Marvel Universe was built on that kind of foundation.”
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Well said.
[it won’t let me reply above; let’s see if this actually appears]
Actually, Shogun Warriors was by the same team which was just wrapping up “Godzilla King of the Monsters”, Doug Moench and Herb Trimpe (the latter being a favorite of my childhood which I think stil largely holds up; I really should check out the entirety of Warriors, too).
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Eh… Bad memory on my part. Been a while since I read ’em. I should have pulled a Shogun Warriors issue out and checked.